Shaft Selection Based on Deflection

Tennesseejoe

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider an up and coming 400 or so Fargo rated player selecting a new cue. If her or his bridge length is normally 10 inches and they want to go with a low deflection cue: would you suggest a cue with a pivot point of 10 inches or and ultra low deflection shaft of 17 inches or more? And why?
 
i would suggest learning with a standard wood shaft so you get to know how the cue ball reacts to what many think is adverse conditions.
if you learn with specialize equipment you only get as good as that equipment allows.
 
They’ll be more accurate with a shaft with a natural pivot point that matches their bridge length, as it will auto-correct for unintentional sidespin.

Shafts with a 10” PP are not LD. I consider 14” and higher LD.

So if they really want LD, they should lengthen their bridge to match if they want maximum forgiveness.
 
I’d still go with an ultra low deflection.

I understand the idea behind matching the pivot point to the bridge length. However, if that were really optimal for actual play, no one would have ever bought a 314 in 1996, and all the subsequent shafts from competitors for the next 30 years.

This is a case real world does not match the theory.
 
Also you’ll still miss the shot if the bridge length was perfectly aligned with the shaft pivot point. The spin would be all wrong so the throw will cause the miss even if the squirt is cancelled out. Plus the position off the rails will be all wrong.

It’s a fallacy.

Consider Dr Dave he has all the pivot point data on his site, yet he uses the 11.8 Revo, and the Z before that.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I’d still go with an ultra low deflection.

I understand the idea behind matching the pivot point to the bridge length. However, if that were really optimal for actual play, no one would have ever bought a 314 in 1996, and all the subsequent shafts from competitors for the next 30 years.

This is a case real world does not match the theory.
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I agree with this. The natural pivot point thing makes sense for mishitting from your intended spot or for someone who really does use BHE.

But I don't find BHE to feel very natural for me and when I've tried it I actually found it rather difficult to do well because of that.

And while I do think there is some benefit to learning how a traditional shaft behaves and what deflection is and how it impacts things, if they've already spent a little time with a traditional cue (and if they're a 400 they have I assume) then I too would say go low deflection.

At this point, I'd suggest getting a good carbon shaft too, that is the way things are moving pretty solidly and a good carbon shaft would set them up well with something they won't feel the need to upgrade from.
 
DeadStick said:
Shafts with a 10” PP are not LD. I consider 14” and higher LD.
Click to expand...
Here's a chart of pivot points measured by Platinum Billiards, showing categorizations of low/medium/high squirt based on my judgment that 10"-12" (the middle range) is "normal". Not saying that's correct, just another view.

pj
chgo

Screenshot 2024-02-05 134223.png
 
iusedtoberich said:
...(with front hand english) you’ll still miss the shot if the bridge length was perfectly aligned with the shaft pivot point. The spin would be all wrong so the throw will cause the miss even if the squirt is cancelled out. Plus the position off the rails will be all wrong.

It’s a fallacy.

Consider Dr Dave he has all the pivot point data on his site, yet he uses the 11.8 Revo, and the Z before that.
Click to expand...
Front hand english works like any other aiming "reference": it gets you close to minimize the needed "estimation". The "fallacy" is misinterpreting it as an "exact" method. Using another method (like pure feel with a LD shaft) doesn't negate the value of FHE.

pj
chgo
 
Buy a good shaft and stick with it.

I see so many players. some better players than myself, that are always switching shafts and tips.

Then I see them missing stuff they shouldn't and I'm sure that it is because of the mind not totally understanding what their shaft does in every scenario.

I'm scared to try a new brand/type of shaft because I know it will take lots of misses to get 100% used to.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's a chart of pivot points measured by Platinum Billiards, showing categorizations of low/medium/high squirt based on my judgment that 10"-12" (the middle range) is "normal". Not saying that's correct, just another view.

pj
chgo

View attachment 741640
Click to expand...
Yeah, I’d consider 10” “normal” as well. Not sure I’d consider 12” LD - I suppose it’s borderline.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I’d still go with an ultra low deflection.

I understand the idea behind matching the pivot point to the bridge length. However, if that were really optimal for actual play, no one would have ever bought a 314 in 1996, and all the subsequent shafts from competitors for the next 30 years.

This is a case real world does not match the theory.
Click to expand...
Lots of players match their bridge length to PP with LD shafts, even with the z2/3 and Revo - I think it’s one reason we see longer bridge lengths in general than in the pre-LD days.

iusedtoberich said:
Also you’ll still miss the shot if the bridge length was perfectly aligned with the shaft pivot point. The spin would be all wrong so the throw will cause the miss even if the squirt is cancelled out. Plus the position off the rails will be all wrong.
Click to expand...
I don’t think the small amount of sidespin applied with an unintentional off-center strike will cause enough throw or directional change off a rail to make a big difference to a 400 FR player’s make rate or position game, over and above their already shaky aim and position-play skills. A bit of unintentional squirt will cause a bigger miss than a little unintentional sidespin. And BHE will be the easiest way for them to learn to apply larger amounts of sidespin.
iusedtoberich said:
It’s a fallacy.
Click to expand...
That’s a little strong.

iusedtoberich said:
Consider Dr Dave he has all the pivot point data on his site, yet he uses the 11.8 Revo, and the Z before that.
Click to expand...
And he literally invented the SAWS system of using different amounts of BHE and FHE, so he could figure it out no matter what bridge length he prefers.

Since you brought him up, this is what @dr_dave has to say on the subject on his site:

The same principles that make pre-stroke BHE an effective method to compensate for squirt also enables automatic stroking-error correction (e.g., from unintentional swoop during the stroke) when one’s bridge length is well matched to the natural pivot length of one’s cue. For short or fast-speed shots, any stroking direction error caused by sideways motion of the back hand during the stroke will be exactly cancelled by squirt (cue ball deflection) resulting in a straight shot. This is particularly helpful with the break shot, where it is difficult to stroke the cue perfectly straight at the high speed used (see break shot technique and equipment advice).
Click to expand...
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Front hand english works like any other aiming "reference": it gets you close to minimize the needed "estimation". The "fallacy" is misinterpreting it as an "exact" method. Using another method (like pure feel with a LD shaft) doesn't negate the value of FHE.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
FHE, BHE, Mix, etc, are all wrong imo. I never said they were exact. There is zero exact. You get the stick on the "line" however you want to. That line changes with the wind. That's one thing that makes this game so hard, the conditions change the aim! Let alone what you are trying to do with the CB.
 
Yet another touch of ado about nothing....

Buy something LD decent. Don't bother with solid maple as it will be a waste of time figuring out how the CB moves with something you don't intend on keeping.

Adjust the bridge length to match shaft. If you don't have the mechanics to do so then stick with it until you do. If you think changing shafts is the best way to compensate then reread the third sentence above.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Consider an up and coming 400 or so Fargo rated player selecting a new cue. If her or his bridge length is normally 10 inches and they want to go with a low deflection cue: would you suggest a cue with a pivot point of 10 inches or and ultra low deflection shaft of 17 inches or more? And why?
Click to expand...

Matching the bridge length to the natural pivot length of a shaft is important really only for a break cue per the info here:


Here's a pertinent quote from the page related to the discussion in this thread:

Should I use a shaft with a natural pivot length matched to my preferred bridge length?​

For short and/or fast-speed shots, with a bridge length well matched to the natural pivot length of a shaft, the effects of any stroke swoop (intentional or unintentional) can be canceled by the resulting cue ball deflection, resulting in a straight shot. This can be particularly useful with a break cue, where stroking errors are more likely at the fast speeds used. For more info, see Diagram 4 in “Squirt – Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration” (BD, November, 2007) and break shot technique and equipment advice.

However, for all other shots, CB deflection (the net effect of squirt and swerve) varies a lot with shot speed, shot distance, and the type and amount of spin. For more information, see aim compensation when using sidespin.

Most players, especially intermediate level and above, don’t have much issue with stroke straightness, so automatic stroke-pivot-error correction isn’t really important (unless one unadvisedly uses an intentional swoop stroke, or with a power break shot where control can be an issue). Also, there are advantages to using an LD shaft, which can have a natural pivot length much longer than most people’s preferred bridge lengths. Regardless, one can learn to adjust for CB deflection over a wide range of shots with any shaft and any bridge length. For more info, see the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS).

If you don’t have a very straight stroke or if you have a bad habit of swooping your stroke, it can definitely help to have a shaft with an effective pivot length for medium-speed and medium-distance shots well matched to your preferred bridge length, where BHE pivot will cancel the net effects of squirt and swerve for average shot speeds and distances. However, it is much better to work on straightening your stroke and learning how to compensate your aim for squirt, swerve, and throw over a wide range of shot types. If you don’t, you won’t be able to reach a high level of play.

If you hit most shots close to the same speed and over close to the same distance, where BHE or stroke swoop error would exactly cancel the effects of squirt and swerve, then it would be best to have a shaft with an effective pivot length (for the given shot speed and distance) be well matched to your bridge length.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Consider an up and coming 400 or so Fargo rated player selecting a new cue. If her or his bridge length is normally 10 inches and they want to go with a low deflection cue: would you suggest a cue with a pivot point of 10 inches or and ultra low deflection shaft of 17 inches or more? And why?
Click to expand...
Would someone that learned on an ld shaft benefit from going with a full maple shaft later on? I don't think so, so why not just start there, whether you use bhe or not, aiming with english is going to be closer to the target for a beginner.

I don't see why you need a long bridge to benefit from less deflection, but I'm willing to stand corrected.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Yes, I read all of that years ago. Now, the proof will be in the pudding. @dr_dave what is your break shaft? If you say Predator, well then you don't subscribe to your own proofs on this matter.
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Predator break shafts aren’t as LD as their playing shafts, and bridge length is typically longer for break shots, so I’d guess even if he does play a Predator break that his bridge is pretty close to the PP.

edit: confirmed to be true
 
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