Shafts with Pilots

No, I believe the point he was making was that I had not taken into account the variations in the shaft density, taper, tip, and ferrules, when I had taken those variables into account. Obviously it's up to the individual to tell a difference with compression fit or not. If you can't, it's ok, nobody is criticizing.
I (and I assume galipeau) was simply stating the opinion that the differences between any 2 shafts will trump the pilot being snug or not. Even if you could remove those variables (galipeau gave a method that would work) I don't think anyone could reliably tell the difference.
 
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I know there are some strong opinions on both sides. I have formed my hypotheses based on the information given, but it could still be tested more thoroughly.

Here's a good story that Freddy the Beard (rip) posted in one of his books. He tells of a big tournament with being held back in the 60's or 70's that used Gandy tables and off brand cueballs. Every player and their mother swore up and down that these balls did not play as well as the blue circle balls they were used to playing with. Complaints of skidding and sliding were rampant, and all the players wanted to change cueballs. Freddy was elected to speak with the Gandy CEO who flew out to meet with them. After explaining to Freddy the in depth process of cue ball manufacturing, it turns out that the only difference in the two types of balls were the color of the inlay. They were made from the same facility out of the same materials to the same specs, but players could swear they could tell the difference. After this information was released, the ball suddenly stopped skidding and acting so weird!

Perception is a crazy thing. I would suggest checking out James Randi and Darren Brown who are magicians who both debunk and explain some of the strange phenomena that people claim they experience. It's very strange how a large number of people can come to believe something that is completely fabricated.

I know I lean more to the "no discernible difference side", but I would truly be interested in seeing the results of a well thought out experiment on this subject.
 
That is a big pin into wood vs. A pin mated into a steel insert.

Huge size difference.

The difference I am arguing is a few thousandths of maple, surrounded by steel and brass.

Absolutely imperceptible to humans. Maybe Efren can tell, since he is a deity.

Yes, I agree a pilot all by itself is not noticeable.

There are some that go beyond that and state type of joint makes no difference at all.

I beg to differ. All the different joint options, weighting, pins and combinations put together can lead to a difference in feel. Not better or worse, but different, which can lead to preference. The 2 cues I showed, same mfr., same shaft, same tip. One has a softer hit than the other.

I have other cues from other mfrs. What makes one cue feel like one piece while another feels like a 2 piece ? The joint, the quality of the build, differences in tolerances of materials, all of the above ?
 
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I know there are some strong opinions on both sides. I have formed my hypotheses based on the information given, but it could still be tested more thoroughly.

Here's a good story that Freddy the Beard (rip) posted in one of his books. He tells of a big tournament with being held back in the 60's or 70's that used Gandy tables and off brand cueballs. Every player and their mother swore up and down that these balls did not play as well as the blue circle balls they were used to playing with. Complaints of skidding and sliding were rampant, and all the players wanted to change cueballs. Freddy was elected to speak with the Gandy CEO who flew out to meet with them. After explaining to Freddy the in depth process of cue ball manufacturing, it turns out that the only difference in the two types of balls were the color of the inlay. They were made from the same facility out of the same materials to the same specs, but players could swear they could tell the difference. After this information was released, the ball suddenly stopped skidding and acting so weird!

Perception is a crazy thing. I would suggest checking out James Randi and Darren Brown who are magicians who both debunk and explain some of the strange phenomena that people claim they experience. It's very strange how a large number of people can come to believe something that is completely fabricated.

I know I lean more to the "no discernible difference side", but I would truly be interested in seeing the results of a well thought out experiment on this subject.

Agree with you on James Randi. I've always enjoyed his exposes, though as I recall, he's mostly exposed those who thought they had psychic powers, rather than feel. But, good point.

Onto cues, a few things you probably weren't aware of. I've examined why my Jerry -R- cues with steel joint, 5/16X14 pins had a more dampened sound hit than my Tim Scuggs cues, same joint, shaft size, taper, and probably density. Jerry's cues were newer, but used old 80s wood for the shafts, so my comparison was probably pretty good. Same weight and specs. The only major difference I could see was the compression shaft fit with Jerry's cues.

I will admit to another difference. Tim did the old-style ivory ferrules with no tenon exposed at the end. Jerry does his the modern way, with a very small wood tenon exposed, presumably for expansion of glue. Almost none of the currents do it the way that Scruggs, Janes, and Stroud did it in the old days. I'm not sure it's significant, but it is a bit of a difference in my testing. But I could still feel that Jerry's shaft hit had a more dampened sound. I've already said same tips, pads, and glue.

This may be misleading to some that think they know it all. Dampened is not necessarily more solid, or quieter. A "ping" sound can be the same loudness as a "thud" sound, but it sounds different, if you have good hearing, like mine. If your hearing is average, or less, you might not hear what I do. And I think the difference is more in the sound than the feel with cues.

Since you gave a cue ball comparison, I'll give you another. I knew Babe Cranfield in the 70s, and he gave me an account when Victor Conte, who did billiard supply sales in Utica, New York, sent new Centennial Blue Circle cue balls that the Albany Billiard Ball Company had made, along with the current model, to both Babe, and Irving Crane, of Rochester, NY, to see if they could tell the new production from the current. According to Babe, both could tell the difference and reported, and they did not confer with one another, as they were not on speaking terms anyhow. This happened in the early 70s, according to Cranfield, who relayed this account in 1978, years before the billiard ball manufacturing went to Belgium. Although the rest of us are not Cranfield and Crane, don't discount the ability to feel a difference.

Your response is reasonable; I don't know why someone else thought he had to speak for you a couple times. I have no problem debating this subject, however, I have no patience for people who claim to have "THE" definitive knowledge, and all other opinions be damned. Agree with you that a further test would be great. But don't expect anyone to hand over a compression shaft to have the pilot cut down. Sometimes you have to do you own experimenting and use your ears. If they're still good.

All the best,
WW
 
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Ah... capped vs uncapped ferrules. That should be a noticeable factor to someone with your attuned ear! There have been some lengthy discussions on that topic in this forum.

Also, thanks for the cool story.
 
Ah... capped vs uncapped ferrules. That should be a noticeable factor to someone with your attuned ear! There have been some lengthy discussions on that topic in this forum.

Also, thanks for the cool story.

Actually, Jerry's would still probably be defined as a capped ferrule, as it was only a tiny tenon exposed, not the main tenon.

You're welcome for the story. Still miss the Babe to this day, as we played a lot of straight pool, and I got a lot of stories about equipment, and the tournaments and the road, decades ago.
 
Actually, Jerry's would still probably be defined as a capped ferrule, as it was only a tiny tenon exposed, not the main tenon.

You're welcome for the story. Still miss the Babe to this day, as we played a lot of straight pool, and I got a lot of stories about equipment, and the tournaments and the road, decades ago.

If the ferrule has a through hole, it's not capped.
Except if that hole is just a bleed hole for the glue.
 
If the ferrule has a through hole, it's not capped.
Except if that hole is just a bleed hole for the glue.

I suspect a bleed hole for the glue. I mentioned expansion for the glue. I think we're talking the same thing. It's too small to be a tenon.

It's interesting that the old timers of the 70's cue making did not do this. A lot of them kept the top of the ferrule completely solid, no bleed/glue expansion hole at all.

As I said, Jerry's would be a capped ferrule, same as Tim's except for the above.
 
Actually, Jerry's would still probably be defined as a capped ferrule, as it was only a tiny tenon exposed, not the main tenon.

Does he use a separate tenon for glue relief?

If wood was visible, I don't know how it could be called a capped ferrule.
 
I suspect a bleed hole for the glue. I mentioned expansion for the glue. I think we're talking the same thing. It's too small to be a tenon.

It's interesting that the old timers of the 70's cue making did not do this. A lot of them kept the top of the ferrule completely solid, no bleed/glue expansion hole at all.

As I said, Jerry's would be a capped ferrule, same as Tim's except for the above.

Could be reduced tenon . Some do that .
Thread the ferrule short of the top. Keep the top un-threaded.
Like a 5/16 18 threaded ferrule but the top is only 1/4 in diameter and the ferrule has a smaller hole there with no threads .
If you can see wood from the ferrule's face, it's not capped.
 
Could be reduced tenon . Some do that .
Thread the ferrule short of the top. Keep the top un-threaded.
Like a 5/16 18 threaded ferrule but the top is only 1/4 in diameter and the ferrule has a smaller hole there with no threads .
If you can see wood from the ferrule's face, it's not capped.

Hard to tell. I'd have to tear the tip off to make sure, and as it's a good Moori II, I'm not going to do that. But other than the compression fit at the joint, it's the only noticeable difference from the Scruggs shaft of a couple decades earlier I'm using to compare. As I said, I can hear the difference between the two shafts on the same butt, but this is pretty subjective. I've noticed this over several of my cues, with multiple shafts, not just my test example that had the same tips. And of course I would qualify, even similar weight shafts can have different sound characteristics.

Of course, I'm leaving my flat faced ivory joint cues out of this. Can you imagine expanding this discussion to whether a flat face or piloted ivory joint makes a difference?
 
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Hard to tell. I'd have to tear the tip off to make sure, and as it's a good Moori II, I'm not going to do that. But other than the compression fit at the joint, it's the only noticeable difference from the Scruggs shaft of a couple decades earlier I'm using to compare. As I said, I can hear the difference between the two shafts on the same butt, but this is pretty subjective. I've noticed this over several of my cues, with multiple shafts, not just my test example that had the same tips. And of course I would qualify, even similar weight shafts can have different sound characteristics.

Of course, I'm leaving my flat faced ivory joint cues out of this. Can you imagine expanding this discussion to whether a flat face or piloted ivory joint makes a difference?
Sambar stag hits better.😛
 
Of course, I'm leaving my flat faced ivory joint cues out of this. Can you imagine expanding this discussion to whether a flat face or piloted ivory joint makes a difference?

That's been covered in depth as well on here. Bavafongoul is convinced there's a difference from what I remember. Can try to dig the link up.
 
Sorry if I come off as a jerk, but the lack of education that abounds in pool players is just silly - what I mean by that is: superstition and marketing have supplanted science - and it kills me

Those without sin cast the first stone... Kinda like you and your, I'm paraphrasing, "Most Southwest Cues are full spliced"... Lack of education is one thing but to pontificae after proving your "hang" in that category is a WHOLE nother story.. AND YOU MAKE CUES!.. Tisk Tisk
 
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Those without sin cast the first stone... Kinda like you and your, I'm paraphrasing, "Most Southwest Cues are full spliced"... Lack of education is one thing but to pontificae after proving your "hang" in that category is a WHOLE nother story.. AND YOU MAKE CUES!.. Tisk Tisk

You took blatant sarcasm as fact? I even called you out for missing the joke in that thread.
 
You took blatant sarcasm as fact? I even called you out for missing the joke in that thread.

Gimme a break....There was absolutely NO sarcasm implied nor set up by you. Nor any reason to BE sarcastic. Your comment was in DIRECT support and ADD to my statement of why I liked most of those cues..Fes up. You just didn't know how they were constructed.. Which is totally fine. Just don't make an excuse afterwards...
 
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Gimme a break. Your so full of donkey do... There was absolutely NO sarcasm implied nor set up by you. Nor any reason to BE sarcastic. Your comment was in DIRECT support and ADD to my statement of why I liked most of those cues..Fes up. You just didn't know how they were constructed.. Which is totally fine. Just don't make an excuse afterwards...

I know exactly how they are constructed. 6 pointers that don't overlap so they can do all the cuts in one shot so they can build them faster. A 12 year wait list and you can't even get points that touch.

Since you guys like to go surfing through my old posts, please find the previous threads where I say that. I have been very vocal about that fact.

My statement was denigrating you, not supporting. A lack of a ring on a $3500 cue matters so much when it isn't a full-splice. I actually got more than one PM smirking along with me, so I know it wasn't just me who got it.

I'm glad you have your preferences on rings, but to blowhard your way into a conversation that doesn't involve you at all and then just being plain wrong is silly. Bye bye
 
I know exactly how they are constructed. 6 pointers that don't overlap so they can do all the cuts in one shot so they can build them faster. A 12 year wait list and you can't even get points that touch.

Since you guys like to go surfing through my old posts, please find the previous threads where I say that. I have been very vocal about that fact.

My statement was denigrating you, not supporting. A lack of a ring on a $3500 cue matters so much when it isn't a full-splice. I actually got more than one PM smirking along with me, so I know it wasn't just me who got it.

I'm glad you have your preferences on rings, but to blowhard your way into a conversation that doesn't involve you at all and then just being plain wrong is silly. Bye bye

You have NO CLUE what your talking about. I guess Gus, David etc... built short spliced 6 and or 8 pointers, HELL 4 pointers! for that matter, too fast huh?... And what, now you need visual A joint rings on a short splice or it's not a $3500 cue?... You are TOO funny... First off my comment in the other thread was for VISUAL PREFERENCE ONLY. It had NOTHING to do with construction. If you want a ring you can put one under the points hidden under the wrap if you MUST have one... Don't blame me because you didn't know a full splice from a half splice... OH, as for all those supposed "Pm's" you got, well I guess that just means you're not alone in your ignorance....
 
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I don't know how you can knock SW's value.
Year after year their prices go up b/c people love them.
 
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