Shane and the Mosconi Cup [Puts on Fire Proof Suit]

[Kim Bye]

No one doubts Shane`s ability as a player.
But for Shane Mosconi cup has not been a great experience.
How about actually asking the guy? If he doesn`t enjoy that format, why should he be "forced" to play, just because he`s the best American player?
I`m thinking out loud here, but the one thing that is different with the mosconi cup is the audience, it`s like a soccer match!
Speaking as one who have bad hearing on my right ear, I hate noisy situations, because I have trouble keeping up with the conversation. Could Shane`s Mosconi performance (or lack of...) come down to something simple like that?

 

[JAM]

Results pickers, what a joke!

Our most cherished and best player in the United States, a three-peat U.S. Open champion, and then a thread like this erupts from the bowels of AzBilliards.

 

[SakuJack]

Results pickers, what a joke!

Our most cherished and best player in the United States, a three-peat U.S. Open champion, and then a thread like this erupts from the bowels of AzBilliards.

Yeah how dare people discuss Shane's Mosconi cup performances.



EDIT: lol! And now a negative rep from JAM for trolling. Because clearly I'm the one trolling here...

 

[PINKLADY]

It's definitely puzzling.

As you note, when he has a losing record over almost 350 racks played, the sample is huge and the rolls are 100% irrelevant.

Enjoyment
My best guess is that Shane doesn't enjoy the experience of being accountable to anyone else but himself. That may be why he thrives at Derby City, the US Open and, more recently, the World Pool Masters, but never looks comfortable at the World Cup of Pool or the Mosconi. This year, I think being named a captain made things even worse for him. Shane is no leader and when he's not leading by example at the table, asking him to lead the troops is a bad idea.

Modified Routine When not Playing a Match
I also wonder whether having to remain in the arena while he is not playing cramps his style. Most players have their own routines when it comes to down time and sweating matches rarely is part of those routines.

Loose Pockets and Slidy Rails
I also think the fact that the Mosconi is played on bucket tables with slidy rails has hurt Shane in three ways: 1) it reduces his breaking edge, 2) it reduces the edge he normally enjoys for being a phenomenally straight shooter and pocketer --- everyone can run out on such easy equipment, and 3) it exposes some of his limitations in kicking, for Shane has shown poor adaptability in his kicking game when he plays on very slidy tables.

Make no mistake about it, Shane is a fantastic short race player. The Derby City 9-ball was races to seven until 2012, and Shane won over a field of hundreds twice before they switched to longer races.

Needless to say, this is all speculation, but it's my sense of it.

agreed. and i'm not even going to bother reading further after your post.

i will add that sometimes stats simply don't apply. (sorry!) but if you step back & look at it (today, et al) - something was off with Shane @ this Mosconi. i have complete RESPECT for Shane & what he does. but if you step back as a lay-person & read his body language & presence in the stands & lack of, throughout Mosconi....it's evident.

something was off.

 

[mjantti]

If statistical analysts could pick a team for USA, who would play then? Assuming the sample for each player is large enough. What is the track record for Archer, Hatch and Earl over the years?

 

[JAM]

If statistical analysts could pick a team for USA, who would play then? Assuming the sample for each player is large enough. What is the track record for Archer, Hatch and Earl over the years?

I think the approach taken this year for Team USA was to develop more of a unison spirit. You know, one for all and all for one. As well, Mark Wilson stated he wanted to develop the new generation of American players; thus, why both Justins were in the mix.

Truth be told, Team USA actually performed better than I had anticipated. There were some shining moments. Team Europe has been performing as a team with unison, grasping onto the concept much longer than Team USA has. Their intereactions and team play are rock-solid in this regard.

Last year's Mosconi Cup, there seemed to be not as much all-for-one/one-for-all spirit with Team USA. Shane and Earl seemed to bond together well, but that was it. For the others, it seemed like the Cup was deemed more as a huge social event, a vacation, a guaranteed payday. It just did not seem to be taken as seriously, and then there were the rumors of OTB, players getting in fisticuffs on the offs, et cetera.

All of that resulted in what Mark Wilson, et al., worked so hard to change. When I watched him give his congratulations speech to Team Europe, I thought he was very humble and polite, and I could sense his frustration that things didn't click the way he had hoped. That said, Team USA did better than I thought they would.

Sometimes you have to lose in order to win, and I'm hoping that there will be gains from this particular loss when next year's Team USA is formed. There's nothing wrong with losing if you give it your all. There is something wrong with losing if you are just in it to collect a paycheck. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Some players thrive in team pool and others perform their best in tournament situations. Seems pretty obvious that Shane is the later type.

That said, even below his best, it would be hard to find 5 other guys in the US that could play better.

I thought he got a pretty harsh run of the balls early on and that led to a negative mindset as the event progressed. It's not easy to pull out of a slump when your opponents are shooting at or near 100%. That's a lot of pressure to fade.

 

[parvus1202]

Maybe USA should start tournaments Race to 5? Lots of people here are saying "In longer races he should win". But it's not longer races. USA team knows that for 2 decades. Find players who are very good in short races. 360 days left for next year's Mosconi. SVB is a top player but very cold at the start. He is more comfortable in races to 9 or over.

 

[mjantti]

I think the approach taken this year for Team USA was to develop more of a unison spirit. You know, one for all and all for one. As well, Mark Wilson stated he wanted to develop the new generation of American players; thus, why both Justins were in the mix.

Truth be told, Team USA actually performed better than I had anticipated. There were some shining moments. Team Europe has been performing as a team with unison, grasping onto the concept much longer than Team USA has. Their intereactions and team play are rock-solid in this regard.

Last year's Mosconi Cup, there seemed to be not as much all-for-one/one-for-all spirit with Team USA. Shane and Earl seemed to bond together well, but that was it. For the others, it seemed like the Cup was deemed more as a huge social event, a vacation, a guaranteed payday. It just did not seem to be taken as seriously, and then there were the rumors of OTB, players getting in fisticuffs on the offs, et cetera.

All of that resulted in what Mark Wilson, et al., worked so hard to change. When I watched him give his congratulations speech to Team Europe, I thought he was very humble and polite, and I could sense his frustration that things didn't click the way he had hoped. That said, Team USA did better than I thought they would.

Sometimes you have to lose in order to win, and I'm hoping that there will be gains from this particular loss when next year's Team USA is formed. There's nothing wrong with losing if you give it your all. There is something wrong with losing if you are just in it to collect a paycheck. Therein lies the difference.

In no way being of being disrespectful to the Americans, do you think that the culture is more individualistic than in Europe? The American pool players always seem to have issue with team spirit while the Europeans seem to be empowered by it, many thanks go to their coach Johan for it. But he has worked for it for many years now. I think Mark Wilson did an excellent job in trying to create more team spirit but unfortunately I think it was only visible on day 1 of the event. I don't know, something was missing from day 2, it was showing on all the Americans' faces. The coach needs help from the players in this issue for sure. Sure, the Europeans got the rolls in this MC, but the Americans made some silly mistakes, some unnecessary cueball movement, like they wanted to play a few ones for the audience. The slippery table is not you want to show off your stroke on, Mark Gray's poke-stroke works better IMHO.

 

[JAM]

In no way being of being disrespectful to the Americans, do you think that the culture is more individualistic than in Europe? . . .

I think the only way Team USA can improve for this event is to have partnerships working together to make it real. It can't just be Mark Wilson and his coaches doing all the work. There needs to be more community involvement here in the States, more support financially and spiritually.

The governments and Euro tour organizations support the pro players. Here in America, pro players are prohibited or banned from competing in regional events that used to welcome their attendance. This has a definite effect on an American pro player's drive.

I won't elaborate on the BCA, only to say that it doesn't do a damn thing to help professional pool. It has totally turned its back on professional pool. The WPA needs to remove the accreditation from the BCA as being the representative for North America. I'm not sure what should take its place, but *anything* would be better than what the BCA is doing, which is zilch. Maybe AzBilliards should pick up the slack and be the representative entity for North America. I'm not kidding either.

The American pool culture also plays a key role in this. There are many who think a pro player is the scum of the Earth, and pro players are treated as pariahs on this pool forum quite often, as if they're the Kling-on visting AzBilliards Discussion Forum. There is no respect.

People stereotype all pros based on the negative behavior of a few, and the image of the American pro player suffers in the eyes of our international brethren, resulting in the blue-blooded Europeans thinking they're better than Americans. They're not. They have more support and have been afforded more opportunities to develop their skills than American pro players.

I'm not making excuses for why Team USA lost. Again, they performed better than I thought they would. It's early in the team-building strategy stages for Team USA, but, sad to say, with no community support behind it, Mark Wilson is facing an uphill battle. :sorry:

 

[mjantti]

I think the only way Team USA can improve for this event is to have partnerships working together to make it real. It can't just be Mark Wilson and his coaches doing all the work. There needs to be more community involvement here in the States, more support financially and spiritually.

The governments and Euro tour organizations support the pro players. Here in America, pro players are prohibited or banned from competing in regional events that used to welcome their attendance. This has a definite effect on an American pro player's drive.

I won't elaborate on the BCA, only to say that it doesn't do a damn thing to help professional pool. It has totally turned its back on professional pool. The WPA needs to remove the accreditation from the BCA as being the representative for North America. I'm not sure what should take its place, but *anything* would be better than what the BCA is doing, which is zilch. Maybe AzBilliards should pick up the slack and be the representative entity for North America. I'm not kidding either.

The American pool culture also plays a key role in this. There are many who think a pro player is the scum of the Earth, and pro players are treated as pariahs on this pool forum quite often, as if they're the Kling-on visting AzBilliards Discussion Forum. There is no respect.

People stereotype all pros based on the negative behavior of a few, and the image of the American pro player suffers in the eyes of our international brethren, resulting in the blue-blooded Europeans thinking they're better than Americans. They're not. They have more support and have been afforded more opportunities to develop their skills than American pro players.

I'm not making excuses for why Team USA lost. Again, they performed better than I thought they would. It's early in the team-building strategy stages for Team USA, but, sad to say, with no community support behind it, Mark Wilson is facing an uphill battle. :sorry:

The inactivity of the governing body BCA is clearly having a negative impact on pro players there. If you are treated like scum, it's no wonder you tend to get more individualistic while trying to support yourself. Not really a good breeding ground for team spirit.

I don't think Europeans think they're better than Americans. We tend to think that Americans think they're better than us But that impression come more from American players/hustlers/gambler doing all the barking. Of course players like Earl strengthens this image. Only players in Europe that seem to be self-confidence driven in their communications are the Brits. I think most of the European players let their game speak for themselves and don't want to get drawn into barking contests. Maybe the message that is delivered to the Americans is that we Europeans think we're better. At least in the 90's Americans clearly were better than the Europeans, we have just been working hard and getting a lot of support and it starts to show.

I think putting up a DCC type of a 24/7 event with bank, 1p and 9-ball disciplines, the Americans would whoop our butts so hard we'd have difficulties finding back home That being said, the Mosconi Cup is not emphasing American players' strengths at all.

 

[SCCues]

Results pickers, what a joke!

Our most cherished and best player in the United States, a three-peat U.S. Open champion, and then a thread like this erupts from the bowels of AzBilliards.

Amen, if I'm picking a team to play anybody then Shane is my first pick! He's the best player in the world and to knock him because of races to 5 tells me you don't play enough 9 ball to understand how rolls can affect the outcome.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Results pickers, what a joke!

Our most cherished and best player in the United States, a three-peat U.S. Open champion, and then a thread like this erupts from the bowels of AzBilliards.

In a game where you are judged by how often you win or lose, you're damn right I'm going to be a results picker.

I provided facts that Shane isn't a great MC player. I even said it wasn't a knock on him, and complimented the facets of his game that are great.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Amen, if I'm picking a team to play anybody then Shane is my first pick! He's the best player in the world and to knock him because of races to 5 tells me you don't play enough 9 ball to understand how rolls can affect the outcome.

And you, my friend, don't understand that when he has a losing record over as many matches as he's played.

It's NOT the rolls.

 

[Nostroke]

I'll put my guess in too

SVB KNOWS in the longer races that he can overcome a flub or two and his skills will eventually win-out. He shoots with confidence and knows he can get there.

In the MC format with races to 5, alternate break, this confidence doesn't exist. There is tremendous pressure on him and he shoots scared.

Next year cut Amir and lets get a sports psychologist for Shane.

 

[Solomon]

I'll put my guess in too

SVB KNOWS in the longer races that he can overcome a flub or two and his skills will eventually win-out. He shoots with confidence and knows he can get there.

In the MC format with races to 5, alternate break, this confidence doesn't exist. There is tremendous pressure on him and he shoots scared.

Next year cut Amir and lets get a sports psychologist for Shane.

I somewhat disagree for the following reasons.

At the level that SVB and other pros play at, they have to play the table and not the opponent. It isn't like league where a high skill level can just leave a lower skill level a long shot and hope to get back to the table.

If you agree with the previous statement, the last 2 matches that SVB played can effectively be compared to a single race to 10 because he stayed at the table and continued to play after the first match.

If you agree with the previous statement, SVB would have lost the longer match to Darren Ekonomopoulos or Nikos Appleton 4-10.

I think there was a lot of pressure that Team USA wasn't used to performing under and as a result they made mistakes that they wouldn't usually make.

 

[GDC]

First off, Shane Van Boening is one of my favorite players to watch. He's by far the best American pool player, and easily one of the best in the world. Yes, he's a favorite against the world in longer winner breaks races, but that's not what this is about.

This is about the Mosconi Cup and whether or not Shane is the best choice for America.

People can argue about variance, short races, alternate breaks, etc. But he's participated enough times that the rolls have evened out, and it's very clear that Shane just doesn't excel in this type of format. Why does he struggle when others (mainly from the Euro side, but some Americans as well) don't seem to have the same issue?

I don't know, and it doesn't really matter in the end. This isn't a knock on Shane as he is still a monster player, but the MC just isn't for him, and that's fine. He has the things that he's great at, but just because he's great at some things doesn't mean he has to be great at everything.

Finally for the variance yappers...

82-85 over 20 singles matches
75-97 over 20 doubles matches

40 matches is more than enough for variance to even out.

I think there is merit to this post. And these statistics are something that need to be taken as an area of improvement for SVB. We see the same thing in other sports ... the major that eluded Sampras and McEnroe was the French Open because of the slower clay surface. For Lendl, it was Wimbledon because of the faster grass. For Shane, statistics like this imply that shorter, non-momentum formats are problematic for him. To develop through this, he has to be honest with himself about statistics like this and figure out a way to get his mind and game stronger for this format. One cannot turn a blind eye to the data.

 

[icucybe]

Shane is still my first pick! I don't think is the format or team play that affects him. I think is more the pressure that USA hasen't win one and wants it BAD! This seems to have USA on tilt not just Shane... Then you come up to the stage with a huge Europe energized crowd. It always seems to me Europe has more support.

Shane is the best player, but I agree he is not a leader. He does not need to be captain. In my opnion someone like Archer, Hatch, or Morris who are veterans with more experince than any player in this year team would have been better and enjoy more being Captain, while still having Shane as your best player.

Europe by far are a more solid team. It looks like they are more comfortable with each other better also. Daz kssing Nikos and look how they started the first day. While American players were in their chairs, Europe was bringing it in getting a pep talk from the coach and then walk over to team USA to shake hands. That shows the team has good sportsmanship, maturity, and dicipilne.

Europe has very solid players and team culture. Is hard to put a team together in one year and beat them. USA needs to build and I hope Mark Wilson stays as captain for years to come.

USA would definitly whoop Europe in banks and 1pocket!

And finally... Mike D should be there! His is at least a favorite in my book in 9-ball over Cory, John, Bergman, and Hall. Of course any of this guys can beat him too, but i would go with Mike D for my money before the performance of this years MC.

 

[Blue Jam]

LMAO!!!!! Youre an Idiot

Thanks for your considered contribution. :thumbup:

The results are there for everyone to see - SVB doesn't have the game to compete at these events and USA's chances of winning are lower when he's in the team. It was embarrassing watching him smash at a kick to try and luck it in somewhere.

 

[nine_ball6970]

In a game where you are judged by how often you win or lose, you're damn right I'm going to be a results picker.

I provided facts that Shane isn't a great MC player. I even said it wasn't a knock on him, and complimented the facets of his game that are great.

I agree with you. The fact is it does not matter how poorly Shane plays in the Mosconi Cup. He will always be picked because he is Shane. Results only matter if you are talking about other potential players on the roster. When the next Mosconi Cup rolls around people will say Bergman should not be on the team because of how he performed in 2014. People will include whatever points help prove their own agenda and leave out similar scenarios.