WPA ranking list leaves out way too many events to be even close to determining who the better player is.
Jaden
Shane losing his #1 Fargo spot
- Thread starter benjaminwah
- Start date
Jaden
That's why at the upper stratosphere of pro pool FR doesn't mean squat. These guys all play heads-up so any rating/handicap system is irrelevant. Like pro PGA golfers. Only time their hdcp. comes into play is if they were to ever play amateur/recreational players.
That's like saying that chess rankings don't mean squat. That's ridiculous. While fr isn't the be all end all, especially towards the middle, it definitely is the best thing available for determining rankings right now.
Jaden
Pro's should be rated by wins, tournament points and $$. The new MR Nineball has their own system completely separate from FR. IIRC its based solely on $ won. As it should be imo. Pro tournaments are not rated like chess is. All play even. Money won makes it real easy to follow.
Interesting... So the goal of an elite pool player is earnings not match success...?
That really falls in line with the notion that SVB's switch to CF was to earn additional sponsorship cash, and not necessarily the best move for continued match success. <--playing devil's advocate
Shane helped develop the shaft and thought it far superior to what he was using. He wouldn't have switched if he didn't think it played better. AFAIK he wasn't offered extra to use it. He's not going to use something that lessens his chances to win.Interesting... So the goal of an elite pool player is earnings not match success...?
That really falls in line with the notion that SVB's switch to CF was to earn additional sponsorship cash, and not necessarily the best move for continued match success. <--playing devil's advocate
I'm pretty sure he makes more money with each match he wins. So yes, winning matches is important.Interesting... So the goal of an elite pool player is earnings not match success...?
That really falls in line with the notion that SVB's switch to CF was to earn additional sponsorship cash, and not necessarily the best move for continued match success. <--playing devil's advocate
Money won is indeed easy to follow, and it would be a pretty good proxy measure for skill if there were enough tournaments--like if all pros played a major tournament every weekend. As it is, though, with 8 or 10 events or something, $$ won and tournament finish-place points are noisy measures. That's why our ranking approach blends competition (tournament points) and performance (rating points).
Just speaking for pros, unless points(any kind) equate to some financial payoff i just don't see the need/reason for them. If the points fund has a payout ala golf's FedXCup i can see that being viable reason. I asked you in a pm about this and got no answer. Same thing from CSI. In the CSI/Pred/Fargo ProSeries what does giving extra Fargo points do to benefit the pro player? Is there $$ for points accumulated?
Actually, Mike, it would be far more accurate to say that he has played in virtually every event having an internationally diverse, elite field, that had at least half a dozen of the world's top 20 players. That probably means the World Pool Championships, the US Open, the China Open, the All-Japan, the World Pool Masters, the Derby City 9-ball, the Derby City 10-ball and the International 9-ball.
After his great year in 2016, in which he won Derby City 9-ball and the US Open 9-ball, here is how it's gone for Shane in these events (yes, many of these events were cancelled in the last two years). He has played in twenty of them:
2017 US Open 9-ball – 13th
2017 Derby City 9-ball, 2nd
2018 International 9-ball, 4th
2018 World 9-ball championships – 3rd
2018 World Pool Masters – 2nd
2018 Derby City 9-ball- 3rd
2018 International Open – 4th
2019 World 9-ball championships –33rd
2019 World Pool Masters – 5th
2019 International 9-ball – 13th
2019 US Open 9-ball – 9th
2020 Derby City 9-ball – 5th
2020 Derby City 10-ball – 9th
2021 World Ten Ball championship - 5th
2021 US Open 9-ball – 9th
2021 World Pool Championships – 9th
2021 World Pool Masters 2021 – 2nd
2021 International 9-ball – 3rd
2022 Derby City 9-ball - 6th
2022 Derby City 10-ball – 5th
Lack of participation is a myth. Shane just isn't winning the big titles anymore. His results still confirm that he's still a top player, but in recent years he just hasn't gotten it done in the biggest spots and is not winning the kind of titles that he won earlier in his career.
By comparison, in the same period, Filler won the China Open, the US Open, the World 9-ball, and the Derby City 10-ball. For good measure, you can add two silvers at the Derby City 9-ball, a Mosconi Cup MVP, and a win at the American 14.1, the only straight pool event in America having a diverse, internationally elite field.
Hence, Shane's results over the past five years are way, way, way, way below the work put in by Filler. Head-to-head, it's also no contest. When Shane beat Filler at the 2021 World Pool Masters, the commentator indicated that this brought Shane's record to 2-9 against Filler over their past eleven meetings (no idea whether they were right, but it sounds about right to this fan).
In short, if Fargo rates them roughly even, I don't get it.
Yours, Stu (the biggest ever fan of Fargo ratings)
I'm talking about more recently Stu. Here are the last 6 ranking events on the WPA calendar (Kremlin Cup didn't happen). I just cut the top 19 players and put in the number of events out of those each played. SVB is the only one of these 19 players with just 1. Yes I know he intended to play Turning Stone. But even at two he'd be light. That's a departure for him.
Further, the next event on the WPA calendar starts in just a few days...
And though it includes 8 of these players (Gorst, Yapp, He, Grabe, Al Shaheen, Hohmann, Immonen, and Juszczyszyn), it doesn't include SVB
It also includes Kaci, Corteza, Kazakis, Garcia, Pehlivanovic, Gomez, Fortunski, Morra, Appleton...all over 780
and Joven Bustamante, Labutis, Atencio, Michael Schneider, Seaman, Styer, Alawadhi, Sossei, Capito, Souto-Comino, Martin, and Loukatos...all over 750 -- and don't forget Jasmin Ouschan....
Two things:
(1) Seeding
(2) Invitations to World 10-Ball
World 10-Ball next month just bumped up from 64 to 128 players and a prize fund of $200,000. And that prize fund is announced to be $250,000 next year).
If you're interested in match odds, it's useful. At the top, the competition is tough. In a race to 11, SVB is over 40% to lose to the #10 FR player. It's hard for any player to dominate these days with so many 800+. I wonder what the odds were for Earl at his peak against #10, or #1 vs. #10 in tennis.
As for using tournament wins for rankings, it is a good way to ensure participation. Note that the #2 US FR player will be unranked on the Matchroom list.
A while back #1 Djokovich played the #20 guy, Fritz. ND was -575 and Fritz was +400. Pretty big swing there.
Thanks for the clarification. I've commented before that the WPA rankings have become a total joke, and it seems, based on your chart, they are an even bigger joke than I thought. Whether they carry WPA ranking points or not, most of these are not majors and don't attract the kind of fields one would expect to find at a major.
Turning Stone had just two players in the field ranked in the Fargo top 25 (Gorst and Shaw) and just one other in the Fargo Top 50 (Immonen at 48th). It's a Joss Tour event, meaning a regional tour event, which most elite players have skipped year in and year out. Yes, Shane had intended to play but had a travel SNAFU.
The last Kremlin Cup, won by Styer, which happened before COVID, had virtually no entrants from Asia, and, with very modest participation from Americans, the field was eerily similar to that found at a Eurotour event. Not a major.
Calling these race-to-four ten ball events, which aren't yet drawing the kind of fields that they hope to attract down the road, majors is similarly in error. Of course, things could possibly evolve in a way that makes these titles prestigious, but I'm betting against it.
No, Shane is not skipping the biggest events on the world pool calendar. He just isn't winning them anymore. Like most American fans, I'd like to see this change.
Again, I was just playing the devil's advocate, but I do find it entertaining that "he helped with the development".
"So Mr. SVB, how do you think we should make this CF shaft...?"
--"Lets see..., can you make it round with a taper, play good, and have a white ferrule"
"Ok Mr. SVB, we've made this CF to your specifications. What do you think?"
--"It's ok but can you make it feel like my 360 that I've won a ton with..?"
"Well that was a wood shaft, and this is CF so it will feel different."
--"Oh, ok... Guess it's already round, and has a white ferrule. Not sure what else......"
"No worries, your input on the white ferrule was ground breaking."
Sorry...lol. I'm in mood this evening.Look we all know you can give any strong player any stick and a week to figure it out, and they'll still be great. I believe SVB's comments on the Cynergy being "far superior" to the 360, as much as the notion of How tips making me better player.
The point I was trying to make in jest earlier is that there's only two sides to this discussion. Is SVB (or any pool player for that matter) more about making money, or maintaining their ranking...? Those two things can be mutually exclusive when you have the opprotunity for sponsorship money. I don't need to sweat finishing top whatever in a bunch of tournaments for that $30k in winnings in 2022, if I already have that $30k in the bank because I made my sponsor happy. Guarenteed money .vs. 'potential' winnings.... For a smart man that decision is real easy.
I also struggle with the idea that anyone with a competitive fargo rating doesn't want that number to max out. The only time a human being doesn't care to be number 1 is when they're attempting to defend their slump from that number. We're not talking about being a 7/9 in APA here. Maybe there's a more improtant ranking system for the top pros that he cares more about. I don't know, but it would be the one thing that would discredit fargo imo.
I'm not trying to be argumentative (honest), but it seems to me that, if playing pool is your job/career, then income (money) is the ultimate goal. Winning more matches brings in more money. Winning more matches is also likely to bring in more sponsors, and thus more money. That is the name of the game....bringing home the bacon. A high Fargo rating, is simply a reflection of performing well in those matches.
If you don't finish in the top whatever, you not only lose tournament money, but you may also lose sponsorship money, too. And that might ultimately mean you lose your ability to pay the rent. And I suspect that would sting a lot more than a lower Fargo rating.
Of course, I could be wrong.
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