Jimmy M. said:
See, this is what happens when a cigarette company makes your cup of coffee.
SHARK Tactics
- Thread starter Gregg
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See, this is what happens when a cigarette company makes your cup of coffee.
MacGyver said:
Alright, a response about Neocheating....yeah!
Please explain why it is bs? I've used it and thwarted it for 25 years now, thanks to reading about it. Have you read the book?
I remember back in 82 or so, I was in a bar and a guy wanted to play some poker at the bar. I had just learned how to do some card stuff (cards are used as the metaphor for neocheating, but it goes waaay beyond cards) in the book so I used one of the nc techniques, he cut the cards and I dealt myself 4 aces. He put down his losing hand and said, "I'll never play any game with you ever!" Of course, that wasn't really nc, as I went way overboard giving myself 4 aces, but it works. Neocheating would have been to give myself maybe one ace or two once in a while.
The author, Frank Wallace (aka Wallace Ward, his real name), wrote his famous poker book in '68 or so. I can't think of the name of it right now (x# Techinques for Advanced Poker?)
Neocheating is NOT a new form of cheating; it is simply a new identification of a long-standing technique. Neocheating probably started about 2500 years ago as individuals began developed conscious thinking, including dishonesties.
Many people think Frank is full of it. But just who says this?...and more important, why do they say it? Maybe you've been tricked into believing them? Isn't it easy for them, and don't they seem to be helping others, when they state this "fact?" And couldn't they gain by making Frank's ideas seem useless, as they use his techniques for gaining advantages?
I've read almost everything he's written, and he's written one hell of a lot of stuff...Frank's's a genius. But don't take my word for it...cuz I might be _________
Jeff Livingston
I must be as gullible as any living human being. I have never heard the word neo-cheating until now but I could swear that some people I know use this technique of distraction all of the time (in pool) and candidly whether they have read the book or not, they seem to always have an edge on their opponents. The subtleness and consistency of their motions and behavior go for the most part unnoticed. Maybe I am a little paranoid and then again maybe I am simply a little more aware of what people do to get an advantage. When these techniques are used against you and you address them, the neo-cheater feigns ignorance and acts mildely insulted and slightly amused. While I cannot say for sure that these quasi-neo-cheaters have read the book, they for sure, use the techniques of subtle distraction. If it didn't work why do they continue to practice the "art" of moving slightly, talking, friendly gesturing, taking a quiet sip of drink while one is shooting etc. I watch the player not shooting with greater intensity than the shooter and have noticed that some people have either learned this from a book or they simply know it from accidentally discovering that it works. Over a period of time, and I have witnessed this many times, over a long session the constant subtle and sometimes no so subtle distractions play an important part in breaking down the opponent. I personally don't do any of these things but like to discuss this with my opponent when I see them doing these types of things. If it didn't work, why do they continue to do it?
JoeyA
JoeyA
chefjeff said:Alright, a response about Neocheating....yeah!
Please explain why it is bs? I've used it and thwarted it for 25 years now, thanks to reading about it. Have you read the book?
I remember back in 82 or so, I was in a bar and a guy wanted to play some poker at the bar. I had just learned how to do some card stuff (cards are used as the metaphor for neocheating, but it goes waaay beyond cards) in the book so I used one of the nc techniques, he cut the cards and I dealt myself 4 aces. He put down his losing hand and said, "I'll never play any game with you ever!" Of course, that wasn't really nc, as I went way overboard giving myself 4 aces, but it works. Neocheating would have been to give myself maybe one ace or two once in a while.
The author, Frank Wallace (aka Wallace Ward, his real name), wrote his famous poker book in '68 or so. I can't think of the name of it right now (x# Techinques for Advanced Poker?)
Neocheating is NOT a new form of cheating; it is simply a new identification of a long-standing technique. Neocheating probably started about 2500 years ago as individuals began developed conscious thinking, including dishonesties.
Many people think Frank is full of it. But just who says this?...and more important, why do they say it? Maybe you've been tricked into believing them? Isn't it easy for them, and don't they seem to be helping others, when they state this "fact?" And couldn't they gain by making Frank's ideas seem useless, as they use his techniques for gaining advantages?
I've read almost everything he's written, and he's written one hell of a lot of stuff...Frank's's a genius. But don't take my word for it...cuz I might be _________
Jeff Livingston
JoeyA said:
I'd say you are NOT gullible at all. You're thinking about this dishonest control technique...that means you're dangerous to, and not wanted by, cheaters. Get used to being lonely, btw, as 95% or so of people don't want to know they're being cheated. Lonely, but happy.
Here's a simple, pyramid chart that shows neocheating in several other areas:
http://attitudeadjustment.tripod.com/Images/neocheat.jpg
I've never seen this chart before...I just found it doing searches on neocheating. Go to the Global Warming movie thread here on AZ to see neocheating in action beyond pool.
JoeyA, I'd like to hear from you about some of your observations of the non-shooters. I'm listing pool nc techniques and would like to add to my list anything you've discovered. Thanks. I'll answer your PMs when I have more time...OK?
Jeff Livingston
Jeff, I guess I can accept the definition of a neo-cheater as you have described the technique.
Neo-Cheaters often "talk" with their friends while you are shooting, sometimes only a few words and other times carrying on a continuous "friendly" banter with friends, feigning interest in everything except the game that is being played. They often lower their voices "so as not to disturb the shooter" which is a bunch of horse shit.
Neo-Cheaters also often make loud exclamations when they miss a shot, again making out like they are really upset with what happened on the shot. Actually they are simply "working you" til they can get in your head and distract you just enough to take you out of your best game.
While I have never read the book but may do so in the future, I am certain Neo-Cheaters exist. Whether they have read the book or not is immaterial. They exist and profit from their folly.
Basically a neo cheater is someone who makes sharking so subtle that it is an art form. And for those that would say that is simply paranoia why doesn't the Neo Cheater quit the distractions when called on it? WHY? Because the subtle, constant barrage of minor distractions, collectively take its toll on the shooter.
I watched last night as one top player playing another almost top player, beating on the lessor player to a degree losing very few games. The lessor player laughed, joked and talked with anyone who would listen and participate in the neo-cheating and over time, wore the better player down with the constant disruptions to the game. By the time the better realized what was happening it was too late, his sizeable lead diminished rather rapidly as his concentration became skewed.
The constant movement going to the bar to get a drink or perhaps a bit of wisdom from the bartender or a friendly one liner with a buddy is all in good fun. That's not neo cheating is it. It's not sharking, there just having fun..
Personally I think the two players should save that kind of fun after the session is over. Why do the neo cheaters commit these seemingly minor distractions time after time? Because over time, these "invisible" distractions take their toll and because they are an effective means to take an opponent out of their game.
Sometimes a quick, small wave of the hand, "acknowledging a friend's presence" is so imperceptible that to notice it is to say that you do not have control over your own self and that those distractions should not bother you. The Neo cheater knows this and persists because he knows that over time, it works and works really well.
An opponent should sit in their chair not moving, not gesturing, not talking and in general should when it is your turn, simply wait for his opportunity when you miss on your own.
Why would your opponent want to say hi to friends while you are shooting? Why would your opponent stay in perpetual motion with slow,methodical and even polite movement? Why would your opponent want to crane their neck to see if your cue ball will be able to get around a group of balls? What good will that do him? (that knowledge won't do him any good but the distraction that he "harmlessly" does will take its toll over time, that's why.)
Why doesn't your opponent stay quiet and motionless?
Simply because they are a neo-cheater, who is not better than a thief.
The neo-cheater robs you of needed space and tranquility and replaces it with wily, even friendly subtle almost invisible distractions.
A well know New York players had a habit of jerking his head around 180 degrees on a regular basis, "just looking for someone in particular" who they never find all the while you are playing pool. He was a neo cheater although a little more blatant than most.
A well timed jerk of the head in an upward motion, although only a friendly acknowledgment of a pal is simply that right. No, for the neo cheater whether he has read the book or not, it is another distraction that over time will impact any player's concentration.
I make it a habit to watch other people's opponents to see when the shooter misses. You would be surprised at how often the neo-cheater's efforts pay big dividends. To naive people who prefer to believe that these distractions don't bother them, and that their opponent is just having a good time and even being polite, the neo cheater is their best friend and the naive ones are simply enablers or collaboraters.
I think some of the "seasoned players" call it breaking your opponent down. They incorporate slow play and any other distractions to accomplish to take you out of your game and they often do it in a very polite manner using faked genuine interest in your good shooting.
Why doesn't your opponent wait until the end of the match to tell you how good of a shot you made or what a great run you had/ or were having? Because their discussion with you has nothing to do with appreciation of your skills and simply because it is a way for them to interrupt your flow and to put enough subtle obstacles in your path for you to miss. I bet the winner would love for you to bestow accolades on him when the match was over rather than while he making his run. It would show what a classy guy you really are. The neo cheater cannot wait until the end of the match because it wouldn't help his pocket book.
It is really sad, but that is reality and anyone who denies this has their head in the sand.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
Neo-Cheaters often "talk" with their friends while you are shooting, sometimes only a few words and other times carrying on a continuous "friendly" banter with friends, feigning interest in everything except the game that is being played. They often lower their voices "so as not to disturb the shooter" which is a bunch of horse shit.
Neo-Cheaters also often make loud exclamations when they miss a shot, again making out like they are really upset with what happened on the shot. Actually they are simply "working you" til they can get in your head and distract you just enough to take you out of your best game.
While I have never read the book but may do so in the future, I am certain Neo-Cheaters exist. Whether they have read the book or not is immaterial. They exist and profit from their folly.
Basically a neo cheater is someone who makes sharking so subtle that it is an art form. And for those that would say that is simply paranoia why doesn't the Neo Cheater quit the distractions when called on it? WHY? Because the subtle, constant barrage of minor distractions, collectively take its toll on the shooter.
I watched last night as one top player playing another almost top player, beating on the lessor player to a degree losing very few games. The lessor player laughed, joked and talked with anyone who would listen and participate in the neo-cheating and over time, wore the better player down with the constant disruptions to the game. By the time the better realized what was happening it was too late, his sizeable lead diminished rather rapidly as his concentration became skewed.
The constant movement going to the bar to get a drink or perhaps a bit of wisdom from the bartender or a friendly one liner with a buddy is all in good fun. That's not neo cheating is it. It's not sharking, there just having fun..
Personally I think the two players should save that kind of fun after the session is over. Why do the neo cheaters commit these seemingly minor distractions time after time? Because over time, these "invisible" distractions take their toll and because they are an effective means to take an opponent out of their game.
Sometimes a quick, small wave of the hand, "acknowledging a friend's presence" is so imperceptible that to notice it is to say that you do not have control over your own self and that those distractions should not bother you. The Neo cheater knows this and persists because he knows that over time, it works and works really well.
An opponent should sit in their chair not moving, not gesturing, not talking and in general should when it is your turn, simply wait for his opportunity when you miss on your own.
Why would your opponent want to say hi to friends while you are shooting? Why would your opponent stay in perpetual motion with slow,methodical and even polite movement? Why would your opponent want to crane their neck to see if your cue ball will be able to get around a group of balls? What good will that do him? (that knowledge won't do him any good but the distraction that he "harmlessly" does will take its toll over time, that's why.)
Why doesn't your opponent stay quiet and motionless?
Simply because they are a neo-cheater, who is not better than a thief.
The neo-cheater robs you of needed space and tranquility and replaces it with wily, even friendly subtle almost invisible distractions.
A well know New York players had a habit of jerking his head around 180 degrees on a regular basis, "just looking for someone in particular" who they never find all the while you are playing pool. He was a neo cheater although a little more blatant than most.
A well timed jerk of the head in an upward motion, although only a friendly acknowledgment of a pal is simply that right. No, for the neo cheater whether he has read the book or not, it is another distraction that over time will impact any player's concentration.
I make it a habit to watch other people's opponents to see when the shooter misses. You would be surprised at how often the neo-cheater's efforts pay big dividends. To naive people who prefer to believe that these distractions don't bother them, and that their opponent is just having a good time and even being polite, the neo cheater is their best friend and the naive ones are simply enablers or collaboraters.
I think some of the "seasoned players" call it breaking your opponent down. They incorporate slow play and any other distractions to accomplish to take you out of your game and they often do it in a very polite manner using faked genuine interest in your good shooting.
Why doesn't your opponent wait until the end of the match to tell you how good of a shot you made or what a great run you had/ or were having? Because their discussion with you has nothing to do with appreciation of your skills and simply because it is a way for them to interrupt your flow and to put enough subtle obstacles in your path for you to miss. I bet the winner would love for you to bestow accolades on him when the match was over rather than while he making his run. It would show what a classy guy you really are. The neo cheater cannot wait until the end of the match because it wouldn't help his pocket book.
It is really sad, but that is reality and anyone who denies this has their head in the sand.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
chefjeff said:
Feed off of the shark...
When you do realize someone is trying to shark you, use it to your own advantage. If I perceive that an opponent is trying to shark me. I tell myself that he is on the ropes and resorting to shark tactics. I take being sharked as a sign of the opponents fear. I look at it as, the opponent is paying me a compliment.
I believe pool has three disciplines that must be practiced and mastered.
1- The physical ability to execute shots.
2- The knowledge of patterns and strategy.
3- The confidence that #1 and #2 won't let you down.
I have not mastered the above three disciplines, heck I haven't mastered any of them
, but I ackowledge that they exist and I try to improve on them when I can.
It is important to be able to detect the shark move, or it could get to you. If you do detect it, use it to bolster your confidence. I think this thread is good, in that it will help people to spot the sharks.
Tracy
When you do realize someone is trying to shark you, use it to your own advantage. If I perceive that an opponent is trying to shark me. I tell myself that he is on the ropes and resorting to shark tactics. I take being sharked as a sign of the opponents fear. I look at it as, the opponent is paying me a compliment.
I believe pool has three disciplines that must be practiced and mastered.
1- The physical ability to execute shots.
2- The knowledge of patterns and strategy.
3- The confidence that #1 and #2 won't let you down.
I have not mastered the above three disciplines, heck I haven't mastered any of them
, but I ackowledge that they exist and I try to improve on them when I can.It is important to be able to detect the shark move, or it could get to you. If you do detect it, use it to bolster your confidence. I think this thread is good, in that it will help people to spot the sharks.
Tracy
rofl, i love it because this is such BS...
"The neo-cheater robs you of needed space and tranquility and replaces it with wily, even friendly subtle almost invisible distractions."
I mean come on... lol
I can't talk to you "neo-cheaters" for the same reason I can't talk to the self-help nutjobs....
I think what frank has done(merge self-help with cheating) is an interesting thing, because even though it doesnt have anything new or even good about cheating, it really reads well.
Once you give people meaningless specialized vocabulary of mundane things, it seems they become fanatical.
What was once "moving in your seat" can become "Slowly phase-shifting your opponents mindspace to an agreeable context, allowing your Neo-tech to disrupt his cognitive convergence"
And try to argue with someone and you simply "dont understant the program" or any other asnine reason that the author/guru gives you.
I've seen it in relationship self help programs, religious ones, money making ones, etc etc etc... this is just a selfhelp shtick for cheating.
Have a dissenting opinion, and you are instantly just trying to "hurt the innocnent people by not teaching them about neo-cheating" or "Just trying to hide the information for yourself".
Again, whatever canned msg the author gives you.
Followers will be able to type pages upon pages of info without ever saying anything... personally I find neo-cheating and other self help things disgusting.
Wow? you mean non-NC won't deal themselves 4 aces?(first off I can deadcut 4 aces out of a truly shuffled non gaffed deck... so what?)
Say that you any actual cheater and you'll be laughed at, NC or regular cheating would never deal themselfs 4 aces or 4 of anything, giving yourself "just enough to win" is what CHEATING is, not some new NC thing.
And sure, NC is just explaining whats been going on for ages and blah blah blah.
I just hate it the way that self-help people twist reality, because now that you've read NC you think you have some sort of "inner insight" when in reality you've just bought into some guys bullsh&t.
Sure you can "get inside" peoples heads or outright shark them... but it isnt neocheating, its just getting inside peoples heads....
But i'm sure you'll disagree with me and have 20,000 made up reasons about why I'm wrong or whatever, but they'll all be coming from whatever the author fed you and most will be completly meaningless.
"The neo-cheater robs you of needed space and tranquility and replaces it with wily, even friendly subtle almost invisible distractions."
I mean come on... lol
I can't talk to you "neo-cheaters" for the same reason I can't talk to the self-help nutjobs....
I think what frank has done(merge self-help with cheating) is an interesting thing, because even though it doesnt have anything new or even good about cheating, it really reads well.
Once you give people meaningless specialized vocabulary of mundane things, it seems they become fanatical.
What was once "moving in your seat" can become "Slowly phase-shifting your opponents mindspace to an agreeable context, allowing your Neo-tech to disrupt his cognitive convergence"
And try to argue with someone and you simply "dont understant the program" or any other asnine reason that the author/guru gives you.
I've seen it in relationship self help programs, religious ones, money making ones, etc etc etc... this is just a selfhelp shtick for cheating.
Have a dissenting opinion, and you are instantly just trying to "hurt the innocnent people by not teaching them about neo-cheating" or "Just trying to hide the information for yourself".
Again, whatever canned msg the author gives you.
Followers will be able to type pages upon pages of info without ever saying anything... personally I find neo-cheating and other self help things disgusting.
Wow? you mean non-NC won't deal themselves 4 aces?(first off I can deadcut 4 aces out of a truly shuffled non gaffed deck... so what?)
Say that you any actual cheater and you'll be laughed at, NC or regular cheating would never deal themselfs 4 aces or 4 of anything, giving yourself "just enough to win" is what CHEATING is, not some new NC thing.
And sure, NC is just explaining whats been going on for ages and blah blah blah.
I just hate it the way that self-help people twist reality, because now that you've read NC you think you have some sort of "inner insight" when in reality you've just bought into some guys bullsh&t.
Sure you can "get inside" peoples heads or outright shark them... but it isnt neocheating, its just getting inside peoples heads....
But i'm sure you'll disagree with me and have 20,000 made up reasons about why I'm wrong or whatever, but they'll all be coming from whatever the author fed you and most will be completly meaningless.
I Am In Constant Motion
I'll admit it...... I CAN'T sit still. If I were a sniper, I'd get my head blown off..... However I generally try to park myself in one place out of the way when I'm not shooting....
JoeyA..... Sounds like every little thing your opponent does is going to get under your skin......If you make a good shot and I compliment you on it there isn't an alterior motive I was just impressed with what you did at the table....and when I rattle a pocket on a tough shot or one I really needed to sink I'm going to show a measure of disappointment the same as I show some enthusiasm when I drop a tough shot like it was straight in......See I'm new enough to the game to still be captivated by every aspect of it........I'm paying attention to your play to try and learn something not to distract you. ...
My playing partner has a tendency to stand behind the pocket I'm shooting at. He'll walk right over to it while I'm lining up.....For the most part it doesn't bother me any more......
He also likes to make comments about the various women in the pool room while I am shooting..... I pointed out that he was doing it, and it just made things worse.....Now he Knows I know he does it and he make it a point to be obvious about it....This gets me laughing and cause me to miss......So I guess this is a mutant shark???
McCue Banger McCue
I'll admit it...... I CAN'T sit still. If I were a sniper, I'd get my head blown off..... However I generally try to park myself in one place out of the way when I'm not shooting....
JoeyA..... Sounds like every little thing your opponent does is going to get under your skin......If you make a good shot and I compliment you on it there isn't an alterior motive I was just impressed with what you did at the table....and when I rattle a pocket on a tough shot or one I really needed to sink I'm going to show a measure of disappointment the same as I show some enthusiasm when I drop a tough shot like it was straight in......See I'm new enough to the game to still be captivated by every aspect of it........I'm paying attention to your play to try and learn something not to distract you. ...
My playing partner has a tendency to stand behind the pocket I'm shooting at. He'll walk right over to it while I'm lining up.....For the most part it doesn't bother me any more......
He also likes to make comments about the various women in the pool room while I am shooting..... I pointed out that he was doing it, and it just made things worse.....Now he Knows I know he does it and he make it a point to be obvious about it....This gets me laughing and cause me to miss......So I guess this is a mutant shark???
McCue Banger McCue
MacGyver said:
I'm into understanding, so I'm not going to give you "20,000 reasons about why your wrong or whatever." Since you have experience in magic, I'm interested in your opinions on this subject. Also, I think for myself, so what the author "fed me" has been integrated years ago. What I write is what I think.
So, it sounds like you have read the book. Good. Any comments on chart #9? Or any specifics on other stuff? How has the author "twisted reality?" Please tell me the details. Seriously.
Your distinction about getting into peoples' heads and n/c is correct. They are not necessarly the same. But your claim that cheating is "giving yourself just enough to win" does not include the cheaters who go beyond that, right? For example, someone who robs a quick shop, or someone who runs out of the hall with your cue is hardly invisible or doing an easy thing.
And why is self-help "disgusting?" Or are you just saying that people who write about self-help are "disgusting?"
Thanks,
Jeff Livingston
Having Fun?
Is it possible that I can be at a pool hall just having fun or am I always neo-cheating? Talking with friends? Going to the bar to get a drink? Complimenting my opponent on a nice shot? I don't do any of this to get under anyone's skin. I do it so as to enjoy my night out. I suppose I could try to work myself into some zen-like trance where I lower my heart rate and become a living statue every time I'm not at the table, but I really think it would reduce my entertainment. If me getting a drink makes you miss a shot, I'd say you have to learn to suck it up a little and learn to avoid distraction. Observing proper pool ettiquette and trying to stay out of your opponent's vision is one thing, but some of you make it sound awfully extreme.
Is it possible that I can be at a pool hall just having fun or am I always neo-cheating? Talking with friends? Going to the bar to get a drink? Complimenting my opponent on a nice shot? I don't do any of this to get under anyone's skin. I do it so as to enjoy my night out. I suppose I could try to work myself into some zen-like trance where I lower my heart rate and become a living statue every time I'm not at the table, but I really think it would reduce my entertainment. If me getting a drink makes you miss a shot, I'd say you have to learn to suck it up a little and learn to avoid distraction. Observing proper pool ettiquette and trying to stay out of your opponent's vision is one thing, but some of you make it sound awfully extreme.
Banger,.... It sounds like you try not to distract your opponent by staying in one place. That's a good start. It also sounds like you play pool and have fun with banter and do not play in high level competition and seldom gamble. If this is the case and you enjoy the fun of your opponent distracting you and you doing the same, then I say, enjoy. Pool is agreat game for all types of people: The occasional player, the recreational player, the student of the game, the competitor, the gambler, the road player and the professional. There are many different ways to enjoy having fun. Your method of having fun is great for you and on occasion when socializing with friends I enjoy banter as well as the next person. But when it comes time for the part of pool that I enjoy most, you have to sew your lips shut and try to remain motionless so that your opponent can have a chance of playing his best.
Why do you think the rules of pool state that when it is not your turn, that you must not talk to anyone and that you must take a chair?
Here is one of the rules that apply:
INTERFERENCE
If the non-shooting player distracts his opponent or interferes with his play, he has fouled.
In most tournaments, there is a rule that states that the non-shooting player must sit in a designated chair and not talk to anyone although the shooter may talk with anyone as long as it does not slow up the game unnecessarily.
As for me being easily distracted, it generally depends on the caliber of player I am playing. For fish and chips and a beer you couldn't win if you did somersaults around the table while I'm shooting.
FTR, I am currently implementing a program to help me deal with distractions in general.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
Why do you think the rules of pool state that when it is not your turn, that you must not talk to anyone and that you must take a chair?
Here is one of the rules that apply:
INTERFERENCE
If the non-shooting player distracts his opponent or interferes with his play, he has fouled.
In most tournaments, there is a rule that states that the non-shooting player must sit in a designated chair and not talk to anyone although the shooter may talk with anyone as long as it does not slow up the game unnecessarily.
As for me being easily distracted, it generally depends on the caliber of player I am playing. For fish and chips and a beer you couldn't win if you did somersaults around the table while I'm shooting.
FTR, I am currently implementing a program to help me deal with distractions in general.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
DelaWho??? said:
In all seriousness, I play to win..... and you're right I'm not gambling or at the tournament level....But when I do beat you I don't want you to come up with some excuse as to why you lost....... I want to beat you on the table not with banter, jibes, or distractions.....That way when you lose you'll know why it happened and it won't be an equipment malfunctioon.........That's why I try to stay out of the way.
I was at the Polish Library Association (Ironically not a book in the place)on Tuesday playing partners and a guy there starts woofing about parters for $100 a rack..... I offered a race to 5 for the $100 with 2 on the wire.....and they didn't want to go. I'm just not good enough to wager $100 off the street with a guy I never met or saw shoot. I was born at night not last night.......
So yeah right now it's all fun and games but give me 6 8 months ann I'll be getting there.....
Incidently I didn't mean any offence in my earlier post JoeyA ..... Hope you took my comments in the spirit they were meant....
McCue banger McCue
I was at the Polish Library Association (Ironically not a book in the place)on Tuesday playing partners and a guy there starts woofing about parters for $100 a rack..... I offered a race to 5 for the $100 with 2 on the wire.....and they didn't want to go. I'm just not good enough to wager $100 off the street with a guy I never met or saw shoot. I was born at night not last night.......
So yeah right now it's all fun and games but give me 6 8 months ann I'll be getting there.....
Incidently I didn't mean any offence in my earlier post JoeyA ..... Hope you took my comments in the spirit they were meant....
McCue banger McCue
WingsFan said:
Good question. If it is your intention to hurt the opponent by distracting them, then you're cheating. If you accidently do it, you're not. If, however, you somehow discover that you've been influencing the game to your advantage by your "normal" movements, you can no longer claim it to be a mistake. Now, it becomes your choice: shark or don't shark.
Now that you know about it, if you don't change your behavior, you're being dishonest...with the other players, but also with yourself. So, if you "win," did you do it by skill or deceit? How do you want to win?...really win so you know deep down inside that you're the better player? Your answer indicates whether or not you are now cheating yourself. But it is no longer invisible to yourself so it is not neocheating anymore.
DelaWho said it best:
"But when I do beat you I don't want you to come up with some excuse as to why you lost....... I want to beat you on the table not with banter, jibes, or distractions.....That way when you lose you'll know why it happened and it won't be an equipment malfunctioon.........That's why I try to stay out of the way."
From the sharkee's perspective: If a shooter is mentally sharked, he can control his response, as his thoughts are his own. So, by being honest with yourself and the use of that personal-thought-control concept, the cheater can be thwarted. Just by thinking differently(!!!)
I've been blasted by some on AZ for proclaiming the legitimacy of this thought, but that is not my problem, is it? Do you choose to make it your problem?To mention this book again may seem redundant, but I'm telling ya, it has helped me in this sharking area so much: The (New) Rational Guide to Living by Albert Ellis and Robert Harper. In it, they explain this procedure of responding to others' actions in a rational, good-for-me way that stops the problem immediately. It is dirt cheap and very useful I don't know if would help you the way it has helped me, but what if it did?
Jeff Livingston
it's a skill that should be learned
This thread has been absolutely incredible. Lots of great ideas and theories. I think that people should just learn to deal with these by subjecting themselves to it. Here is an example. Tiger Woods Dad Earl would constantly make noises, throw things, do his absolute best to distract him while swinging in practice. Why? So his mind was trained to block out everything around him. Same thing goes for pool. Play in highly crowded bars with loud music and people always in your site. I guarantee you will learn to focus on the task at hand. That's the one thing I enjoy about my bar league play is that u meet and have to learn to deal with many types of people and many different things.
I have a friend that always seems to hear what the players in the background are saying. Most of the time not even the opponent...lol
Everybody knows that is bothers him. Why is he listening? He pretty much looks for something to be said, pausing before he shoots. Recipe for disaster. I have learned a lot watching him play.
Be a good observer when not playing and you will learn tons of info that no book can tell you!
JMO..... Rob
This thread has been absolutely incredible. Lots of great ideas and theories. I think that people should just learn to deal with these by subjecting themselves to it. Here is an example. Tiger Woods Dad Earl would constantly make noises, throw things, do his absolute best to distract him while swinging in practice. Why? So his mind was trained to block out everything around him. Same thing goes for pool. Play in highly crowded bars with loud music and people always in your site. I guarantee you will learn to focus on the task at hand. That's the one thing I enjoy about my bar league play is that u meet and have to learn to deal with many types of people and many different things.
I have a friend that always seems to hear what the players in the background are saying. Most of the time not even the opponent...lol
Everybody knows that is bothers him. Why is he listening? He pretty much looks for something to be said, pausing before he shoots. Recipe for disaster. I have learned a lot watching him play.
Be a good observer when not playing and you will learn tons of info that no book can tell you!
JMO..... Rob
Sharking is not limited to males. There is one notorious female sharker in my area - she has won numerous national titles. One time at BCA in Atlantic City, I had just come off a tough win against Renee' (don't remember her last name, from the east coast), and had to go play this other gal. She had been watching me play well, and as I came over to the table where she was waiting, she said, "Are you ready?"
I replied that I would like to hit a ball, and she said I had been shooting so I should be warmed up. I embarrassed her when I took one ball and shot it 3 rails to determine how the table ran (long, new cloth).
Her favorite trick is that because she lives near me, she knows my rhythm and knows my timing to get me out of stroke. So, at the last stroke when I am pulling back on a key ball, she jerks her head suddenly and looks the other way. Or she turns her head and then suddenly as you are letting go, she turns back to watch. She has gotten me so many times with that move, it's ridiculous.
She is a big girl and she took to standing in FRONT of the long tables at BCA Regionals and Nationals, with a couple feet between her and the edge of the pool table, right in the middle. Most people stand between the long tables or behind them, as a courtesy, or they are sitting down in the chair on the other side of the long tables. Not her, she stood in front, like a behemoth.
Onto her tricks, I asked her to stand back this time, so she backed barely to the opening of the curtained railing. She kept moving her head back and forth, looking here and there. I exaggerated staying down on the ball, long enough for her to do it 3-4 times. Finally, in front of everyone, I stood up and asked her if she was done moving her head in front of me, thereby shaming her in front of the crowd. From then on, she has been pretty good.
Her best one though, has been to always have a boyfriend sweating her matches which she will then sit on his lap, kiss, move around, talking and laughing, all while her opponent is trying to shoot. She just has no class in this regard.
Another blatant one is an Asian girl who was in the finals of BCA Nationals last year, talking to all her friends. She totally had her back to me while I played her and her friends noticed that I was standing up, looking at her and they all fell silent, except her. Finally, she turned around and behaved on that shot, but went right back to doing it. I got so ticked off and didn't say anything and she got to me...I have to admit it.
She made it all the way to the finals. I saw her doing it in every match. Some didn't even realize what was throwing them off (she chose to get louder the more important the shot was) or they, like me, were too nice to say anything.
She played a friend of mine in the Finals and her mother had just died, and no one was there to root her on, so I stayed for the whole thing. This Asian girl was just relentless. My friend started out strong and there went the Asian, talking loudly and rudely, wandering around (there was more room in the finals area) and if you can believe it, receiving back rubs from her boyfriend! Her head would bob up and down while he was reaching over the long table to reach her!
I was incensed and from being up in the match, my friend started losing and did lose the first set. I talked to her on the break and told her she HAD to tell this girl to shut up and sit in her chair during the next set. My friend agreed that it had thrown her off and that it had really bothered her, but the extent of it was so unbelievable that she just didn't think this girl really knew what she was doing. I told her yes she does and it is her greatest weapon, how do you think she got there???
Well, my friend politely asked her to please be quiet and stay in her chair during the match and with the crowd now on to her, my friend won easily.
I was so happy for my friend. There are several people like myself that absolutely freeze when someone is shooting and will do anything NOT to cheat, and she is one of them.
One last good shark to mention - I knew a gal that rolled her own cigarettes while I was playing her in a quiet tournament. The noise from her baggie and the papers, the motions of rolling, the flame of lighting it and the bright orange glow and flare of the light in the dim room wherever she waved it or sucked on it, and the plume of smoke that wafted above her head were all distracting. Smoking at the table is an advantage that nonsmokers don't have, as we have no excuse to go waving our arms around while someone is shooting...they shouldn't do it anyway while their opponent is down on their shot, IMHO.
OK, my rant is up!
I replied that I would like to hit a ball, and she said I had been shooting so I should be warmed up. I embarrassed her when I took one ball and shot it 3 rails to determine how the table ran (long, new cloth).
Her favorite trick is that because she lives near me, she knows my rhythm and knows my timing to get me out of stroke. So, at the last stroke when I am pulling back on a key ball, she jerks her head suddenly and looks the other way. Or she turns her head and then suddenly as you are letting go, she turns back to watch. She has gotten me so many times with that move, it's ridiculous.
She is a big girl and she took to standing in FRONT of the long tables at BCA Regionals and Nationals, with a couple feet between her and the edge of the pool table, right in the middle. Most people stand between the long tables or behind them, as a courtesy, or they are sitting down in the chair on the other side of the long tables. Not her, she stood in front, like a behemoth.
Onto her tricks, I asked her to stand back this time, so she backed barely to the opening of the curtained railing. She kept moving her head back and forth, looking here and there. I exaggerated staying down on the ball, long enough for her to do it 3-4 times. Finally, in front of everyone, I stood up and asked her if she was done moving her head in front of me, thereby shaming her in front of the crowd. From then on, she has been pretty good.
Her best one though, has been to always have a boyfriend sweating her matches which she will then sit on his lap, kiss, move around, talking and laughing, all while her opponent is trying to shoot. She just has no class in this regard.
Another blatant one is an Asian girl who was in the finals of BCA Nationals last year, talking to all her friends. She totally had her back to me while I played her and her friends noticed that I was standing up, looking at her and they all fell silent, except her. Finally, she turned around and behaved on that shot, but went right back to doing it. I got so ticked off and didn't say anything and she got to me...I have to admit it.
She made it all the way to the finals. I saw her doing it in every match. Some didn't even realize what was throwing them off (she chose to get louder the more important the shot was) or they, like me, were too nice to say anything.
She played a friend of mine in the Finals and her mother had just died, and no one was there to root her on, so I stayed for the whole thing. This Asian girl was just relentless. My friend started out strong and there went the Asian, talking loudly and rudely, wandering around (there was more room in the finals area) and if you can believe it, receiving back rubs from her boyfriend! Her head would bob up and down while he was reaching over the long table to reach her!
I was incensed and from being up in the match, my friend started losing and did lose the first set. I talked to her on the break and told her she HAD to tell this girl to shut up and sit in her chair during the next set. My friend agreed that it had thrown her off and that it had really bothered her, but the extent of it was so unbelievable that she just didn't think this girl really knew what she was doing. I told her yes she does and it is her greatest weapon, how do you think she got there???
Well, my friend politely asked her to please be quiet and stay in her chair during the match and with the crowd now on to her, my friend won easily.
I was so happy for my friend. There are several people like myself that absolutely freeze when someone is shooting and will do anything NOT to cheat, and she is one of them.
One last good shark to mention - I knew a gal that rolled her own cigarettes while I was playing her in a quiet tournament. The noise from her baggie and the papers, the motions of rolling, the flame of lighting it and the bright orange glow and flare of the light in the dim room wherever she waved it or sucked on it, and the plume of smoke that wafted above her head were all distracting. Smoking at the table is an advantage that nonsmokers don't have, as we have no excuse to go waving our arms around while someone is shooting...they shouldn't do it anyway while their opponent is down on their shot, IMHO.
OK, my rant is up!
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i can't agree more...
I can't even praise you enough for this reply... women are THE WORSE... they are far worse then men... and this is coming from a WOMAN too! they are deceitful and to my knowledge are far bigger crumbs then men could ever dream of being...
"in the poker game of life, women are the rake.. .they are the fu%*(% RAKE."
rackmsuckr said:Sharking is not limited to males. There is one notorious female sharker in my area - she has won numerous national titles. One time at BCA in Atlantic City, I had just come off a tough win against Renee' (don't remember her last name, from the east coast), and had to go play this other gal. She had been watching me play well, and as I came over to the table where she was waiting, she said, "Are you ready?"
I replied that I would like to hit a ball, and she said I had been shooting so I should be warmed up. I embarrassed her when I took one ball and shot it 3 rails to determine how the table ran (long, new cloth).
Her favorite trick is that because she lives near me, she knows my rhythm and knows my timing to get me out of stroke. So, at the last stroke when I am pulling back on a key ball, she jerks her head suddenly and looks the other way. Or she turns her head and then suddenly as you are letting go, she turns back to watch. She has gotten me so many times with that move, it's ridiculous.
She is a big girl and she took to standing in FRONT of the long tables at BCA Regionals and Nationals, with a couple feet between her and the edge of the pool table, right in the middle. Most people stand between the long tables or behind them, as a courtesy, or they are sitting down in the chair on the other side of the long tables. Not her, she stood in front, like a behemoth.
On to her tricks, I asked her to stand back this time, so she backed barely to the opening of the curtained railing. She kept moving her head back and forth, looking here and there. I exaggerated staying down on the ball, long enough for her to do it 3-4 times. Finally, in front of everyone, I stood up and asked her if she was done moving her head in front of me, thereby shaming her in front of the crowd. From then on, she has been pretty good.
Her best one though, has been to always have a boyfriend sweating her matches which she will then sit on his lap, kiss, move around, talking and laughing, all while her opponent is trying to shoot. She just has no class in this regard.
Another blatant one is an Asian girl who was in the finals of BCA Nationals last year, talking to all her friends. She totally had her back to me while I played her and her friends noticed that I was standing up, looking at her and they all fell silent, except her. Finally, she turned around and behaved on that shot, but went right back to doing it. I got so ticked off and didn't say anything and she got to me...I have to admit it.
She made it all the way to the finals. I saw her doing it in every match. Some didn't even realize what was throwing them off (she chose to get louder the more important the shot was) or they, like me, were too nice to say anything.
She played a friend of mine in the Finals and her mother had just died, and no one was there to root her on, so I stayed for the whole thing. This Asian girl was just relentless. My friend started out strong and there went the Asian, talking loudly and rudely, wandering around (there was more room in the finals area) and if you can believe it, receiving back rubs from her boyfriend! Her head would bob up and down while he was reaching over the long table to reach her!
I was incensed and from being up in the match, my friend started losing and did lose the first set. I talked to her on the break and told her she HAD to tell this girl to shut up and sit in her chair during the next set. My friend agreed that it had thrown her off and that it had really bothered her, but the extent of it was so unbelievable that she just didn't think this girl really knew what she was doing. I told her yes she does and it is her greatest weapon, how do you think she got there???
Well, my friend politely asked her to please be quiet and stay in her chair during the match and with the crowd now on to her, my friend won easily.
I was so happy for my friend. There are several people like myself that absolutely freeze when someone is shooting and will do anything NOT to cheat, and she is one of them.
One last good shark to mention - I knew a gal that rolled her own cigarettes while I was playing her in a quiet tournament. The noise from her baggie and the papers, the motions of rolling, the flame of lighting it and the bright orange glow and flare of the light in the dim room wherever she waved it or sucked on it, and the plume of smoke that wafted above her head were all distracting. Smoking at the table is an advantage that nonsmokers don't have, as we have no excuse to go waving our arms around while someone is shooting...they shouldn't do it anyway while their opponent is down on their shot, IMHO.
OK, my rant is up!
I can't even praise you enough for this reply... women are THE WORSE... they are far worse then men... and this is coming from a WOMAN too! they are deceitful and to my knowledge are far bigger crumbs then men could ever dream of being...
"in the poker game of life, women are the rake.. .they are the fu%*(% RAKE."
Really? Next you'll be telling me they are able to shoot pool too!!!
Regarding Neo-tech and self help in general, I'll steal a line from catcher in the rye and just say that I hate phoneys.
Self-Help people(i'm talking about the guru's... the fakes and phonies) who take some general occurance, use made up words or context to describe them, use analogies that are completly wrong all giving people a "quick fix" or some sort of new edge that others don't have. I've seen *FAR* too many otherwise rational people spend years and lots of money on self help things that never make them better but yet they will claim to be... 99% of self-help comes from YOURSELF and outside influences wont really help, at least imho.
The Neo-Cheating web version that I have is pretty old, I dont see any charts labled 9.... in fact I only have tables and figures, and tables only go up to like 5/6(some are unmarked...) but mention the content and I'll look it up or at least tell you what I think.
Specifically on Neo-Cheating, you have got to understand that when coming into the book you realise that the author doesnt really know what he's talking about (how cheating occurs, techniques, etc), it isnt that hard to be dis-interested with the book.
It's like he read Erdnase and then decided that he was going to form a "new path of cheating" and thought up neocheating, and used self-help methods to twist things around into that book.
He is using something that most people don't understand(card sharping or cheating) to seem knowlegable in order to establish himself as an authority only to make his later claims more believable... On reading it however I saw he really didnt know what he was talking about and therefore no authority, so I had a better idea of what he was trying to pull... at least imho.
Even my pre-dispositions to Self-help guru's aside, just from reading it, I just cant stand it.
it's like a kid wanted to be "cool" and wrote a manual on how cool he(neo-cheaters) really are and how being one of his followers(neocheaters) will make so "cool" and able to achieve so much more...
Yet nothing he gives you is any more than common sense gives you.....
So either you take position A, that any of that is new in which case its obviously wrong since its been around before and he isnt adding anything, or you take position B, where he is just classifying things that already went around, which makes the thing redudent and stupid imho.
If the world has words and explanations for why XXX does YYY, then writing a whole book reclassifying it it just trying to give your name some fame and completly pointless, at least imho.
I'm not against *all* self help, just the kind that uses the weaknesses of their listeners to the Guru's own advantage...
In this case, neo-tech is using people's lack of knowledge in one area to boost it's own msg, which is wrong imho.
MacGyver said:Really? Next you'll be telling me they are able to shoot pool too!!!
Regarding Neo-tech and self help in general, I'll steal a line from catcher in the rye and just say that I hate phoneys.
Self-Help people(i'm talking about the guru's... the fakes and phonies) who take some general occurance, use made up words or context to describe them, use analogies that are completly wrong all giving people a "quick fix" or some sort of new edge that others don't have. I've seen *FAR* too many otherwise rational people spend years and lots of money on self help things that never make them better but yet they will claim to be... 99% of self-help comes from YOURSELF and outside influences wont really help, at least imho.
The Neo-Cheating web version that I have is pretty old, I dont see any charts labled 9.... in fact I only have tables and figures, and tables only go up to like 5/6(some are unmarked...) but mention the content and I'll look it up or at least tell you what I think.
Specifically on Neo-Cheating, you have got to understand that when coming into the book you realise that the author doesnt really know what he's talking about (how cheating occurs, techniques, etc), it isnt that hard to be dis-interested with the book.
It's like he read Erdnase and then decided that he was going to form a "new path of cheating" and thought up neocheating, and used self-help methods to twist things around into that book.
He is using something that most people don't understand(card sharping or cheating) to seem knowlegable in order to establish himself as an authority only to make his later claims more believable... On reading it however I saw he really didnt know what he was talking about and therefore no authority, so I had a better idea of what he was trying to pull... at least imho.
Even my pre-dispositions to Self-help guru's aside, just from reading it, I just cant stand it.
it's like a kid wanted to be "cool" and wrote a manual on how cool he(neo-cheaters) really are and how being one of his followers(neocheaters) will make so "cool" and able to achieve so much more...
Yet nothing he gives you is any more than common sense gives you.....
So either you take position A, that any of that is new in which case its obviously wrong since its been around before and he isnt adding anything, or you take position B, where he is just classifying things that already went around, which makes the thing redudent and stupid imho.
If the world has words and explanations for why XXX does YYY, then writing a whole book reclassifying it it just trying to give your name some fame and completly pointless, at least imho.
I'm not against *all* self help, just the kind that uses the weaknesses of their listeners to the Guru's own advantage...
In this case, neo-tech is using people's lack of knowledge in one area to boost it's own msg, which is wrong imho.
There is no table 9 on the web site....it's only in the book which includes all the other stuff he writes about, besides cards, that deals with handling neocheating in other areas. That table lists the the 9 ways to get cheaters out of a game---very useful (for some, anyway). rakumsucker used one of those ways, btw, in her BCA story.
I'm sorry you haven't read it...I thought you had. Thanks for your comments on it, though.
Just a reminder: Neocheating wasn't invented by Wallace; he just made the indentification and distinction of it and integrated it into other areas of life, some self-help, some other. Of course he got the info. elesewhere...that was his point. I haven't seem him write about cards for the last 25 years, as he quit betting games long ago for rational reasons. Now he writes about other stuff, beyond cards. His fame came way before this particular book, btw.
Anyone notice what just happened here?
Jeff Livingston