SHIMS vs EXTEND THE RAILS

[realkingcobra]

Glen, the problem is not what you know

The problem is your steadfast belief that you know everything

And, you just don't know what you don't know

Tell you what Joe, how about having Wes post up some picures of some Gold Crown rails in which he's cut the sub-rails off, repaired the ends of the rails that are nailed out with new wood, then installed new sub-rails...to exact spec's to make Brunswick Superspeed, or Artemis cushions play great...AND extended the rails correctly to tighten the pockets up....then, no problem, I'd give Wes prop's for his work on that level of being a table mechanic

 

[joelpope]

Tell you what Joe, how about having Wes post up some picures of some Gold Crown rails in which he's cut the sub-rails off, repaired the ends of the rails that are nailed out with new wood, then installed new sub-rails...to exact spec's to make Brunswick Superspeed, or Artemis cushions play great...AND extended the rails correctly to tighten the pockets up....then, no problem, I'd give Wes prop's for his work on that level of being a table mechanic

He doesn't have to prove anything to me, you are the one that questioned his ability

 

[realkingcobra]

He doesn't have to prove anything to me, you are the one that questioned his ability

hmmm....I don't believe I questioned his abilities did I?...What I said was, he could do extensions to tighten the pockets up, but if the OP wanted the rails calibrated to play at their best...to send them to Mark, as Wes don't have the knowledge to do that correctly. I'm not putting Wes down in any way, he's a good installer, but he's not on the level I'm talking about...so, I didn't question....anything

 

[stevel]

I've been in Mark's shop and there is a big difference in just extending a set of rails and calibrating a set of extended rails.The only 2 people that I know that can do this properly are Mark or Glen. It's to totaly different processes in
doing it the right way and the wrong way. The pocket has to be calibrated as well so the center of the pocket stays centered.Just by putting extentions on the end of the rails will not calibrate the rail,because the throat of the pocket will be too tight.And the pockets will no longer be centered.

Best Regards,

Steve

 

[J-Flo]

Maybe you can tell us?

Glen, the problem is not what you know

The problem is your steadfast belief that you know everything

And, you just don't know what you don't know

Maybe you can tell us what he dosent know? JM.02

 

[bbb]

please lets keep this thread to opinions/experience with shimmed vs extended rail pockets and playability
thanks guys
:wink:

 

[JC]

I have had a GC3 for about ten years and it has been through three phases. First it was double shimmed and it played pretty good. Way better than the stock tables with 4.75 pockets down at the pool hall. Those bigger pockets spit more honest shots than the shimmed ones on my table did. Then I had a hack do wooden rail extensions. (I didn't know he was a hack until I got the rails back) The pocket angles weren't the subscribed diamondized specs but they played pretty well. Almost too forgiving down the rails with speed even though the pockets were under 4.5 inches. I had a pro play on it in that state and he said he thought it was perfect and needed to be left alone. I didn't listen. Now I have the diamond spec pockets done by Donny and it plays really well, but different. If your thing is playing on diamond bar boxes and want that feel at home without buying a diamond table this is it. The three phases of my table got increasingly expensive but....all three were a big improvement over stock and the previous phase. My .02

JC

 

[RAMIII]

Pretty big difference

Interesting thread...I'll be tightening my pockets in a couple of days and it'll be a Shim additions. I'm just curious to know if it's really that much more different than extended rails?

There's a pretty big difference in the way that shimmed vs sub-rail ext play in my experience, and it comes down to pocket consistency and the way a pocket handles a ball. Shimming pockets gets them smaller, but not typically consistent. Sub-rail extensions done right requires a calibration of the rails to ensure size and angles are precise that when the rails are extended then everything is perfect and consistent. Shims are a good way to approximate--but there's always going to be pocket variation. Rail calibration and sub-rail extensions are precise, making all pockets identical, and making for a better game. Those hard shots down a rail that rattle on shimmed tables, often rattle because the angles aren't correct. Shimmed pockets drive me crazy because they're inconsistent. You know a ball should go, and it doesn't because the shimmed angle is off a degree or two.
So in short, it make a difference, it's just that so few people do rail calibrations that sometimes it makes it practically impossible. I'm sure it may be difficult to find in China.
Good luck!

 

[o.g. (old guy)]

I've seen 1/4" facings used to tighten up pockets a little, seemed to play pretty well. Inexpensive and easy.

 

[Jive]

There's a pretty big difference in the way that shimmed vs sub-rail ext play in my experience, and it comes down to pocket consistency and the way a pocket handles a ball. Shimming pockets gets them smaller, but not typically consistent. Sub-rail extensions done right requires a calibration of the rails to ensure size and angles are precise that when the rails are extended then everything is perfect and consistent. Shims are a good way to approximate--but there's always going to be pocket variation. Rail calibration and sub-rail extensions are precise, making all pockets identical, and making for a better game. Those hard shots down a rail that rattle on shimmed tables, often rattle because the angles aren't correct. Shimmed pockets drive me crazy because they're inconsistent. You know a ball should go, and it doesn't because the shimmed angle is off a degree or two.
So in short, it make a difference, it's just that so few people do rail calibrations that sometimes it makes it practically impossible. I'm sure it may be difficult to find in China.
Good luck!

Thanks for the very detailed reply. Appreciate it!

 

[JC]

Shimmed pockets drive me crazy because they're inconsistent. You know a ball should go, and it doesn't because the shimmed angle is off a degree or two.
.
Good luck!

Shimming pockets doesn't make the angles off. The shims just follow the existing lines. Big inconsistent pockets turn into smaller inconsistent pockets. Which in most cases rolled right off the showroom like that. Recalibrating just fixes what was never right to begin with. Since Brunswick has been building pockets like this for decades one has to wonder if the only thing wrong is new expectations of how players would like pockets to accept balls. After all, matches have been won and lost on tables that spit out balls forever. With some damned high runs too. They spit everyone's equally though and the players who adapt excel. It's just lately it seems we find this unacceptable. Do we want better consistency or just more forgiving pockets that we can boast are "tight"? After all who is to say what plays "right" or not? If you're better at not rattling balls than your opponent on the table you're playing on then the equipment is just right after all isn't it? It makes me wonder if the players from yesterday who "never missed" are better than today's version?

JC

 

[ROB.M]

Table

Case and point, the true pro player knows how to play the pocket. I remember earl saying something about this one time too. He figures the pockets first then he shoots accordingly.
There is two GCs at the poolroom, one has 5.5mm facings and the other has the 2.3mm facings, there's a few locals that has figured them out real well.
Pretty neat learning some moves n some cheap 1 pocket')

 

[cueandcushion]

I had SDBilliards do a set of rails for my Gold Crown 3 that is our One Pocket table. I wish I had the finances to do more tables like this. It is a much cleaner pocket and all the Mickey Mouse kisses and weird bounces off the pocket tits are all gone now. Having 3 shims means you end up with anywhere from 2 to 6 different tits at different heights after a certain amount of time on the table. I really liked SDBilliards work and dealing with them was easy and quick. I already have a set of rails to send to them for my next table to probably do in the spring.

 

[perfectpocketz]

Shimming pockets doesn't make the angles off. The shims just follow the existing lines. Big inconsistent pockets turn into smaller inconsistent pockets. Which in most cases rolled right off the showroom like that. Recalibrating just fixes what was never right to begin with. Since Brunswick has been building pockets like this for decades one has to wonder if the only thing wrong is new expectations of how players would like pockets to accept balls. After all, matches have been won and lost on tables that spit out balls forever. With some damned high runs too. They spit everyone's equally though and the players who adapt excel. It's just lately it seems we find this unacceptable. Do we want better consistency or just more forgiving pockets that we can boast are "tight"? After all who is to say what plays "right" or not? If you're better at not rattling balls than your opponent on the table you're playing on then the equipment is just right after all isn't it? It makes me wonder if the players from yesterday who "never missed" are better than today's version?

JC

You make some great points....that are also accurate...I started completely cutting sub-rails off tables...witch in turn I found out just how out of square the pocket were....with a lot of help talking with Glen....we together started to figure the proper calibrations for the rail...the sub-rail...and pockets.
There are a lot of people out there putting wood on the ends of the rails....trimming down the sub-rails...and getting the nose of the cushions to read what ever size pocket someone asks for...but there's a lot more to calibrating rails and pockets...then what people on here offer.

What Glen and I found out together about really calibrating rails correctly....goes a lot feather then I'm going to get into.....but, that's why we do different work on rails than anyone else...I'll also include Bobby in as well....

I have always said that pool tables should play the same....cue sticks should play different...because players play with different strokes..When I do a poolroom recovery....people tell me all the time...I'm glade you did these tables..now it don't matter which one I rent...they all play the same....as they should.

Glen and I have had endless conversations on the phone about rails...sub-rails...and pockets...without a doubt he's thought me as well as I him....but most importantly we learned a hell of lot about rails over the last 4 years together.

Trust me Glen's a (TRULY AWESOME TABLE MECHANIC).....with tons on knowledge about any table. I don't think anyone can put a bed cloth on a table better then Glen...BAR NONE!

Rails are what make a table play great.....and we still have a ways to go for perfection....don't get me wrong....we do great work on the rails now....but I think.....as well as Glen....we can do better.

Time will tell.

Mark Gregory

 

[dannylee]

Interesting thread...I'll be tightening my pockets in a couple of days and it'll be a Shim additions. I'm just curious to know if it's really that much more different than extended rails?

Extremely different. I had shimmed pockets and extended rails before. The shimmed pockets are a very dead type of drop. You can even hear the difference. If you are just going to bang balls around this will work. If you are trying to get a table that plays correctly you have to go with extended rails...BUT.. they MUST be done right. I have had both and let me tell you, I will never make that mistake again. If you get them done right the first time, it should last you pretty much the life if your table as long as you take care of it. Having the rail cut angles precisely calibrated and the rubber attached with tight tolerances are an absolute must.

Mark Gregory just redid my GC I rails and all I have to say is it was worth every penny and more. It stopped me from contemplating on buying a new diamond. It plays that much better now.