Shop Temp control

I wasn't poking any fun I hope?

Just responding to the originators question and trying to make light of a few earlier posts.

I figure, If I can't make it as a cuemaker, then I at least may be building equity in the river of wood that I am processing- seasoned and in several stages of o.d.'s.

I used to work for a VERY high-end cabinet making shop years ago. The founder/owner was very intelligent. He said if he had it his way- 70 degress and 50 % humidity all day long- IF the wood was properly dried and has the correct moisture %, specific gravity, etc.- from raw wood to the finished product.

I try to stick to that philosophy w/o much failure...

'course, don't have a TON of cues out there in the world, but to this date, no returns;)

eh....knock on wood?

(I couldn't resist....)
 
No offense meant by my post, just a random thought as I read through the thread. Sometimes I let my words flow without much regard. I apologize for that.

Like any woodworker, we all have our own methods & the ideas that seem to be the strongest are the ones based on experience, failure. Heck, I must have built 50 cues before I considered myself ready to sell to the open market. My first 20 cues were JUNK!!!! They hit good & were playable, but were never very good cues. Some of them even fell apart :) Warpage & stability was a huge issue. But after about 30 cues I began to incorporate knowledge I had gained from previous failure, and little by little the cues became better. I met a point where I felt good about my abilities & was having lots of fun so I bought some more equipment & set up a fair shop. I must have built 50 cues before ever cutting points. This was around the time I began messing with temp control, then came humidity control, and eventually full swing back to nothing but keeping myself comfortable while working. Climate controlling worked fine enough, just not as well in my own experience as long term open seasoning.
 
qbilder said:
No offense meant by my post, just a random thought as I read through the thread. Sometimes I let my words flow without much regard. I apologize for that.

Like any woodworker, we all have our own methods & the ideas that seem to be the strongest are the ones based on experience, failure. Heck, I must have built 50 cues before I considered myself ready to sell to the open market. My first 20 cues were JUNK!!!! They hit good & were playable, but were never very good cues. Some of them even fell apart :) Warpage & stability was a huge issue. But after about 30 cues I began to incorporate knowledge I had gained from previous failure, and little by little the cues became better. I met a point where I felt good about my abilities & was having lots of fun so I bought some more equipment & set up a fair shop. I must have built 50 cues before ever cutting points. This was around the time I began messing with temp control, then came humidity control, and eventually full swing back to nothing but keeping myself comfortable while working. Climate controlling worked fine enough, just not as well in my own experience as long term open seasoning.
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2 Points I'd like to thank you for making:

1 being that there are going to be mistakes and everyone makes them, seems like no one ever admits to "not making the worlds best cue" everyone talks about throwing cue's on the fire, and stuff. I call BS, most sell flawed cue's cheaply, I've done it, and I've seen some cue's that azer's have made that are in the same boat.

2 being that there are alot of internet cuemakers around here, meaning no one goes out to there "shop" and tries anything, they spend all there time on the computer trying to learn how to make cues. Not saying I haven't got alot of good information here, but a huge percentage of what my brother and I know (90%) is from trial and error. If something isn't working and we are not able to figure it out, I'm not afraid to ask questions.

oh and to answer the question:

72 degrees, 47-55% humidity.

Iowa has quite the climate change. I'm going to take 10 round, untapered shafts and leave them outside for 1-2 years and see what happens. Average shafts 8-10 growth rings. Just an experiment.

later

Let the flaming begin, burn baby burn
 
RFisher said:
Iowa has quite the climate change. I'm going to take 10 round, untapered shafts and leave them outside for 1-2 years and see what happens. Average shafts 8-10 growth rings. Just an experiment.

later

Let the flaming begin, burn baby burn
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Thank you for the kind words. I agree, nothing to hide or be ashamed of, no matter how crappy my cues were when I first began. It's the history that forms the future.

As for putting shafts outside, I wouldn't do quite that extreme. Put them in a shed or in an unheated/cooled garage. But don't let the elements get them. Rain & snow cause pretty sudden surface cracks. So at least keep them under cover. I let my raw lumber sit in my garage for a long time before cutting into squares, then dowel the squares when I get a chance, and let the dowels sit for at least a year in the garage before I begin cutting. Some stay dead nuts straight while others warp past the point of even attempting to cut. So from there I can sort through & get the straight ones to cut, and the end is an 85-90% yeild of good finish size shafts. If I factor in the warped dowels that I don't cut, the yeild would be around 75%. But the ones that don't get cut get used for other things like butt sleeve tenons & wooden threaded rod.
 
As for putting shafts outside, I wouldn't do quite that extreme. Put them in a shed or in an unheated/cooled garage. But don't let the elements get them. Rain & snow cause pretty sudden surface cracks. So at least keep them under cover.




I have a small shed out side of my shop, that's what I was going to do, should have clarified that.

Thanks,
 
bickering

ratcues said:
Why does everyone keep rehashing the same argument? The original question was what temp/humidity do you keep you CLIMATE CONTROLLED shop at? It WAS NOT do you agree with climate control. SO, in short, if you do not have a climate controlled shop, do not participate. If you want to debate climate control vs non-CC, start your own thread.

<~~~tired of the intraforum bickering
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I didn't look at it as bickering. I just thought we were exchanging our thoughts on the climate in which we build cue's. I am sure that nothing that I said was personal and I am pretty sure anything anyone else has said wasn't either. To me it just shows how and why we have so many different builders out there. Because we all do it our own way. I really enjoy other builders input on here. I have used a couple idea's other builders have talked about on here. Some have worked and some didn't for me.

Lee:
And I do use Nelsonite after my first cut on shaft wood but not after that. I also use it on Burl woods but that is just about all. That works for me. Like I said in my first post what ever works is the right way.

I also apologize if I offended anyone. That is not my intentions at all!

Have a good day!
 
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Yeah, I never seen any bickering, either. Just good discussion & differing views. It's often times very, very tough to read words & know their intentions because you can't hear the tone of voice or see the expression on the face. Sometimes it can appear tense but really isn't at all. I can sit face to face with you & tell you something & you'll understand what I mean & how I mean it. I can also write the exact words down on the forum & you'd think I was being an ass.
 
I live in the desert so I don't have any choice in the matter.
I have to keep the shop at a comfortable 78*...50-53%.
In the summer we can get down to single digit humidity and live in triple digit temps. This is no good for cue wood unless your trying to get some air dried exotics down.
Even in our winters it is generally only 15-25% RH outside which is still too low for cue wood, IMO.
At the 50% range I figure I have most areas covered where the cue is headed. If the RH is generally only 30-50 range there should be very little to no shrinkage. If they are headed to an area where it is in the 50-80 range most times there should be very little to no swelling.
Tried stabilizers....don't like, won't use.
 
As for the original question, my shop stays at 68-71 degrees and 16% on the moisture side. But as far as the 2,5,10,20 year old wood goes, I think this is way out there. I am not saying it doesn't exist, but do not see the point.
I see way to many folks preaching about letting there wood sit,cure and dry over years of time, but are building in conditions that this is pointless.
I started in a garage at my parents house. To buy wood in mass would have been very dumb. It was non insulated and damp when it rained. Now, I have a shop built just for my cues. Lucky to have that.
As far as Nelsonite goes, this product is worthless in my shop. You turn wood to breathe right? Why would you seal it so it can't, especially after each turn! Those who use it faithfully, Nelsonite thanx you. I do not.
As for dry times. You can order premo wood at a 6% rating, but NO shop is this low no matter how big you are. So the aging is already done for you. Now for non kilned , oilier woods like rosewood family, ebonies and such, sure , it needs to dry. If you force these woods to dry, they are proned to cracks and checking.
Just my opinion, right or wrong. Just think this whole who's got the perfect way,dry over years thing is blowed up a bit.
 
Yes Joey, 16% all day long. I built the shop last year just for cues. I added a ton a extra stuff to the building to make it hold this way. Built in poor conditions so long, I decided to treat myself to a nice lil shop this time. I love it!
 
I personally agree that...

time is the best cure to warpage issues, the cuemakers that spend the time to let the wood move and settle are the most successful. Taking time between cuts, weeks and months in some cases; you cannot rush nature.

Wood is organic and has a life of its own...most want the easy way. I would rather wait 2 years for a truly solid cue, than have one put together too fast.

I have seen many people buy blocks, at VF for example and have them turned into cues in a few months, I think that is too fast and hope the people that bought those cues dont run into any trouble down the road.

Just my .02
 
paulybatz said:
time is the best cure to warpage issues, the cuemakers that spend the time to let the wood move and settle are the most successful. Taking time between cuts, weeks and months in some cases; you cannot rush nature.

Wood is organic and has a life of its own...most want the easy way. I would rather wait 2 years for a truly solid cue, than have one put together too fast.

I have seen many people buy blocks, at VF for example and have them turned into cues in a few months, I think that is too fast and hope the people that bought those cues dont run into any trouble down the road.

Just my .02
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tap tap tap
Must be Tad's secret that's why his cues are known to stay straight more than anyone's.
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
As for the original question, my shop stays at 68-71 degrees and 16% on the moisture side. But as far as the 2,5,10,20 year old wood goes, I think this is way out there. I am not saying it doesn't exist, but do not see the point.
I see way to many folks preaching about letting there wood sit,cure and dry over years of time, but are building in conditions that this is pointless.
I started in a garage at my parents house. To buy wood in mass would have been very dumb. It was non insulated and damp when it rained. Now, I have a shop built just for my cues. Lucky to have that.
As far as Nelsonite goes, this product is worthless in my shop. You turn wood to breathe right? Why would you seal it so it can't, especially after each turn! Those who use it faithfully, Nelsonite thanx you. I do not.
As for dry times. You can order premo wood at a 6% rating, but NO shop is this low no matter how big you are. So the aging is already done for you. Now for non kilned , oilier woods like rosewood family, ebonies and such, sure , it needs to dry. If you force these woods to dry, they are proned to cracks and checking.
Just my opinion, right or wrong. Just think this whole who's got the perfect way,dry over years thing is blowed up a bit.
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Interesting thoughts. How long have you built cues? How many cues have you built? How many cues have you seen again 5 years after building? How many BF of figured & straight maple have you processed? Do you clearly understand the differences between drying & aging & seasoning wood, and the dynamics of each process?

Not trying to be an ass, just trying to get an idea of your experience & knowledge on the subject of processing wood. I don't know much about you, so i'm asking in order to know who i'm conversating with. I see you blatantly disagree with 10,20,30 year veteran builders who are tried & tested. Now I just want to know why, and how you determined your opinion.
 
Nearing 20 years Eric. Many have sold localy, 400 or so. So I see my cues quite a bit from time to time. Reworking tips,cleaning them, and so fourth. I did not state my opinion for a debate with you.
And I do not see where you got I was blantant in any way to any of the cuemakers , no matter their experience. It was my opinion on the matter. I do not built cues overnite, my wood adjusts to the shop environment. I do what works for me, and as other makers do what works for them. That's what makes it a challenge for all of us! The top makers are there for a reason, and I fully respect that and admire them for leading the way.......
 
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Jim, I think I was very civil in my post. I was not being an a$$hole. The fact is, you misunderstand some things & when I tried pointing it out to you in a hintful & polite way, you became defensive & aggressive. The word, "blatant", means obvious, absolute, unquestionable. It's not a bad word, it's an adjective. So cool off. And drying wood in a kiln is a way to dry wood fast, not slow. It has nothing to do with aging. Aging & drying are two distinctly different aspects of wood processing. You saying kiln dried wood is aging it, would be comparable to me saying, "Jim cuts shafts but I make ferrules". Again, totally unrelated, and your words "blatantly" showed your misunderstanding of the subject. I tried hinting this to you in a very polite way, and maybe I wasn't straight up enough for you. I wasn't and still am not being a dick. If you can't understand this then yeah, I agree you should'nt try debating. Don't come public & voice your opinions, opinions that conflict with others', and not expect debate or at least some credibility questioning.
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
Yes Joey, 16% all day long. I built the shop last year just for cues. I added a ton a extra stuff to the building to make it hold this way. Built in poor conditions so long, I decided to treat myself to a nice lil shop this time. I love it!
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Jim I don't understand why you'd insulate that shop so much to get it down to 16%.
Too dry and to staticky for me and my woods.
Ebonies, brazilian rosewood, marblewood and zircote would check around the humidity if they are not sealed .
 
It was unintentional Joey, just the way it came out. It is very comfortable it seems for the woods. I can turn them night or day, and they remain very stable. Here in indiana , we get lot's of rain, so the moisture thing before my new shop was a challenge. I keep it this way in all seasons , so I feel my woods stabilize themselves and stay very true to work with. In no way am I saying it's the right or wrong way, just what seems to work very well for me.
Thanx for the question Joey,
Jim Lee
 
Ok Eric, please explain to me the difference in the aging versus drying process you are trying to make. I am curious now. What , IN YOUR OPINION, makes a piece of maple that is 20 years cut and air dried better than kiln dried maple that is not. The moisture content of both say are at 10%.
Thanx ,
Jim Lee
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
Ok Eric, please explain to me the difference in the aging versus drying process you are trying to make. I am curious now. What , IN YOUR OPINION, makes a piece of maple that is 20 years cut and air dried better than kiln dried maple that is not. The moisture content of both say are at 10%.
Thanx ,
Jim Lee
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I never said air dried wood was better than kiln dried wood. Read closely, and pay attention to my words before making assumptions of my "OPINION", please. You can air dry wood, or you can kiln dry it. Either way is drying it. Aging the wood is totally different.

Aging is more important in kiln dried wood than air dried because of the stress the wood aquires from rapidly losing it's moisture. The cells that were otherwise full of fluid, collapse & draw together much like wet leather shrinks & curls up when it dries. The difference is that wood is solid & cannot curl up & adjust shape to relieve stress until enough material is removed to free up the stress. It's also not just water giving the moisture account. It's liquified minerals & sugar/sap, hence the staining & streaks. So great, you bring fresh cut lumber to 6% in 3 weeks time by using a kiln. What to do now with the internal stress? The kiln operators & schedule they follow can greatly reduce stress during the drying process, but NEVER get it all. So when you take your fresh dried lumber & try using it right away, you'll find it works fine just like any other lumber but give it some time to work out it's stress & you'll see noticeable movement. Give it time to work that stress out BEFORE using it & you'll find it to be far more stable as a finished product and during working. That's aging.

Seasoning wood is a little different, or can be the same as aging. My opinion of seasoning is letting the wood endure & acclimate itself to all the seasons of your area, before you ever even consider using it. It takes time, at least one full year. I let wood sit for minimum one year before ever cutting, and I use kiln dried lumber. I have been building cues roughly 10 years & have wood from before then that I still have not begun to use. I grew up in the Appalachian mountains of Ohio, hardwood lumber country. The industry in the area is wood. I grew up cutting trees. I'm no stranger to wood. But cue wood, even though it's still just maple, is different in processing than your typical lumber. It requires it's own unique grading system, plus requires it's own unique processing system. That system varies with each builder, but in 99% of the cases it's intensely more complex than other woodworking systems. For me, kiln drying is barely even the start. Letting it age & season is where it really begins.

As for the differences between kiln drying & air drying, that's another topic altogether. I have been learning so much about it that I realize it's an unended science. There's always more to learn, always some new techniques. I learn a lot from the mills & kiln operators themselves, along with my own experiences. I have experienced cutting the trees, milling the logs into lumber, drying the lumber in kiln and natural air drying, seasoning and aging the dried lumber. I have personally executed every single step in the processing of maple to cue shafts. I certainly do have my experiences to base my opinions. And I most certainly have enough experience & knowledge to know the differrences between drying wood & aging it.
 
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