Shot Clock Good for Pool?

[sjm]

In another thread, CaptainJR wisely noted that the shot clock makes it harder for players to show their personalities during televised matches:

How about giving the pool players enough time to show some personality and emotion, talk the talk and walk the walk. A shot clock in pool to me compairs to a clock used in chess. It just doen't belong there. It is a thinking game. Only if a poker player takes way way to long, time and time again, will they put a timer on him.

CaptJR

I thought the subject merited a thread of its own.

Wow, Captain, that’s a really interesting point about the shot clock. I’ve always been in favor of it, and remain strongly in favor of it for un-televised matches, but you’ve got me reconsidering my position when it comes to televised matches.

Let’s start by dispelling a myth about the shot clock. It is not entirely because of ESPN that we have it. It really represents a compromise between the objectives of ESPN and those of the players. ESPN wants control of the length of a match and wants to do everything it can to make it likely that an entire match can be fit into a one hour telecast. The players want as long as race as possible, as they feel it makes it fairer. The only way ESPN can allow a race to seven is to have a thirty second shot clock. Players would certainly not tolerate a shot clock that allowed any less time than that, and that’s understandable.

Now, Captain, in a perfect world, pool would merit more than one hour for its telecasts, and no shot clock would be necessary. Still, let’s be realistic here and say that the one hour time slot for most tournaments is etched in stone for the time being. The only way to get rid of the shot clock, which, as you’ve wisely contended, would allow the players to be far more animated and demonstrative in their behavior, and would also allow commentators more time to report and build on the drama, would be to shorten the race.

This is where what’s good for the pool fans and what’s good for the competitor are in conflict. A colorful race to five would make for much better television than a colorless race to seven, yet the mere suggestion of racing to five instead of seven would probably enrage almost every professional. Most of them think seven is too short a race, and whether they are right or wrong shouldn’t matter a lick. What matters is what would make their sport more marketable to the public.

As Hamlet said, “To shorten the race or not to shorten the race, that is the question.”

 

[CaptainJR]

Even at a race to 7, they never show all the games. 4 maybe 5 games is the most they show. Maybe 6 once in a while. A race to 7 can be 13 games. They are barely showing half the games.

Solution... Make it a race to 11 or 13. The more games to pick from the better chance of seeing some real excitment in an idividual game. Edit the film and show the games where the players and or the commenters are most colorful.

JR

 

[CaptainJR]

I forgot to mention. NO shot clock of course. If a player spends some time thinking and it happens to be in one of the games you think should be used, just CUT some of his thinking time out. Nobody will even notice.

 

[sjm]

Even at a race to 7, they never show all the games. 4 maybe 5 games is the most they show. Maybe 6 once in a while. A race to 7 can be 13 games. They are barely showing half the games.

Solution... Make it a race to 11 or 13. The more games to pick from the better chance of seeing some real excitment in an idividual game. Edit the film and show the games where the players and or the commenters are most colorful.

JR

Captain, they show as many minutes of pool as their time slot permits and, as you note, edit out the rest. As you observe, the result is, more often than not, that we miss some of the action.

When a match is 7 - 1, you tend to see all of it, double hill practically never. Still, I consider the fact that some of the play is edited out to be a weakness of the current televised pool proudct that should not be accepted as standard. I recall hearing an announcer give reference to a shot earlier in a match that hadn't even been shown.

For me, personally, I'd rather see the whole match, and would like to see TV and the players get together and do whatever it takes to make it animated and theatrical.

 

[bruin70]

i think the "television" arguement is a specious one. all pool matches are heavily edited STILL, so it doesn't matter how they try to speed it up. the arguement makes sense only if shortening the races allowed them to televise the full match.

other than that, i don't see how any player's slow pace has caused consternation to anyone, including the spectators. the game is inately boring to watch because there's nothing exciting for the general public to grab onto, and stepping up the pace doesn't remedy this. so let the game keep its own flow, and satisfy theose who love the game.

 

[CaptainJR]

Still, let’s be realistic here and say that the one hour time slot for most tournaments is etched in stone for the time being.

In your reply, you forgot about the condition you imposed in your opening statment of the thread.

 

[sjm]

In your reply, you forgot about the condition you imposed in your opening statment of the thread.

I'm probably guilty as charged, Captain -- just daydreaming, I guess.

The realities are probably that the one hour time slot and the race to at least seven are etched in stone.

 

[CaptainJR]

Also they need to #$^%#%^ allow some serious #%&&$%@ cussing. No !@#$%^#$% beeping it #@@#$% out either.

 

[Kerry Impson]

I think all of you are making very good points, and perhaps one way to remedy the situation is to play a different game. In a race-to-seven match of 9-ball the role of luck looms too large; it's a disgrace (IMO) that championship matches are decided by such a short race of this luck-drenched game. In addition, breaking and running a rack of 9-ball with a wide-open table is becoming commonplace for the top pros. Adding one ball makes not only pocketing a ball on the break harder, but also running the rack. Since, as several of you have pointed out, the whole match is edited anyway to fit ESPN's time slot, I don't think we'd be losing too much as spectators (nor ESPN as broadcasters) if we were watching 10-ball, and it would be much fairer to the players. Just an idea!

 

[cueball1950]

Shot Clock. Thank Frank Taberski

A gentleman and former world champion who is in the hall of fame also is the cause of the shot clock first being used. He was a great straight pool player who used to lull his apponents asleep in their chairs because of his slow play and his alwasy taking breaks. Story has it that during a 250 point match, during 1 of the racks he took 3 or 4 bathroom breaks, plus he would stroke his cue maybe 30 to 40 times between shots. So the pool Gods instituted the clock on him. Rumor has it that the 250 point match took over 7 hours to complete......................................................mike

 

[JustPlay]

SJM, CaptainJR has a good point-Taped Espn matches should be a race to 11-games and edited as the race to 7-games are. One of the biggest reasons that it is a race to 7-games and edited for time is that espn has to sell high dollar advertising. I personally think that professional pool will never be big on tv period, it never has been good for the tv viewers and it is very boring as you have stated. The only good pool on tv would be gambling matches where people actually see the cash exchanging hands like in a ring game or a king of hill contest. The only people who enjoy watching good pool are pool players and not the general public. There is no market for pool on tv, just like there is no big market for bowling on tv.

I wish espn would completely stop showing that garbage "trick shot magic" from 3 years ago, nobody cares! I got more excitment watching two women rolling around on a log to see who falls in the water! I have been involved in pool for the last 15 years and professional pool has gone nowhere in that time as compared to other games like bowling, darts, snooker etc. The reason why I don't compare golfing to pool is because it is like comparing apples to oranges. I think it is safe to say that this is as good as it gets for professional pool being an American pastime. Until Pool pulls in VERY HIGH DOLLAR sponsorship that has weight like some beer company or tobacco company it will never get the spotlight it deserves.

 

[ajrack]

too quick

I play quite fast and even I cannot play with a 30 second shot clock...all the time...if it's a bad rack (lots of tied up balls/ clusters etc.) then your opponent misses and messes up the balls again...then you must walk around the table to look at a couple of tied up balls ...you just can't make it with the 30 seconds!
I have used different times .. 35/40/45.. when watching players in my tourneys and it seems that fairly good players take about 40-45 secs for most..
even though you may have a "delay" allowed in the rules, how about the next shot in the same rack?
note* I play in Australia where they use "English" rules and they have a 60 sec clock...the timekeeper calls out a warning at "30" seconds and it usually happens just about the time you pull the trigger...so I wait until the warning and then I shoot.

 

[sjm]

A gentleman and former world champion who is in the hall of fame also is the cause of the shot clock first being used. He was a great straight pool player who used to lull his apponents asleep in their chairs because of his slow play and his alwasy taking breaks. Story has it that during a 250 point match, during 1 of the racks he took 3 or 4 bathroom breaks, plus he would stroke his cue maybe 30 to 40 times between shots. So the pool Gods instituted the clock on him. Rumor has it that the 250 point match took over 7 hours to complete......................................................mike

Yup, Taberski's lethargically slow play is well known. In more recent straight pool competition, Dick Lane was the guy who put his opponents to sleep with slow play. Nine ballers seem to play a little faster on average than the legends of straight pool. Thank heaven!

 

[ajrack]

Dick Lane

I once timed Dick Lane,he took 2:38 seconds to shoot a basic break shot that he (or any of us) would normally shoot fairly easy with not much effort.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I once timed Dick Lane,he took 2:38 seconds to shoot a basic break shot that he (or any of us) would normally shoot fairly easy with not much effort.

I saw a match between Lassiter and Lane that took 3 1/2 hours for 150 points. Lassiter didn't play that slowly, and he ran 103, but he also took three fouls three times. Lassiter won the game.

 

[ramdadingdong]

Yup, Taberski's lethargically slow play is well known. In more recent straight pool competition, Dick Lane was the guy who put his opponents to sleep with slow play. Nine ballers seem to play a little faster on average than the legends of straight pool. Thank heaven!

_______________________________________________________________

Frank Taberski's slow play was legend. I have film of the guy doing several exhibitions and shooting trick shots and he was quick as a cat. Ripley's did a cartoon of him and it said, guess I will take my time, then play safe. It shows him standing over the table in deep study with his opponent snoozing away in the corner dead asleep. The caption was "he certainly takes his time" It was signed Rip and not Ripley as later on. This was one of Ripleys earliest cartoons back in the 20's and the only one I've seen that poked fun at somebody.

From the film I have on the guy it all seems like a shark to me. He was the established champion now aging and now wearing glasses, the only champion to ever win a world wearing glasses. The new fresh 19 year old kid, Greenleaf comes on the scene with a red hot temper. Greenleaf played fast and loose, Taberski slow and deliberate. He found the more he slowed down, the more Greenleaf went off and he used this as a weapon against him.

That is why you must have a shot clock, even if you don't use it. Like it golf, it is there, you only pull it out and activate it when somebody begins to dog it. If they don't pick it up, your fine, foul or dq them. One guy, can trash the sequence of the entire event if you let him. Calling a warning at 30 seconds on a 60 second clock is dumb, call it at 50 seconds, not 30. I say let the players have their own pace and only bring it out for the problem guy. I personally dont like having that thing hanging over my head. When they first starting using it, it mind boggled Varner. He just went to pieces.
Rama...

 

[APA7]

Is this Fast Larry again???

_______________________________________________________________

Frank Taberski's slow play was legend. I have film of the guy doing several exhibitions and shooting trick shots and he was quick as a cat. Ripley's did a cartoon of him and it said, guess I will take my time, then play safe. It shows him standing over the table in deep study with his opponent snoozing away in the corner dead asleep. The caption was "he certainly takes his time" It was signed Rip and not Ripley as later on. This was one of Ripleys earliest cartoons back in the 20's and the only one I've seen that poked fun at somebody.

From the film I have on the guy it all seems like a shark to me. He was the established champion now aging and now wearing glasses, the only champion to ever win a world wearing glasses. The new fresh 19 year old kid, Greenleaf comes on the scene with a red hot temper. Greenleaf played fast and loose, Taberski slow and deliberate. He found the more he slowed down, the more Greenleaf went off and he used this as a weapon against him.

That is why you must have a shot clock, even if you don't use it. Like it golf, it is there, you only pull it out and activate it when somebody begins to dog it. If they don't pick it up, your fine, foul or dq them. One guy, can trash the sequence of the entire event if you let him. Calling a warning at 30 seconds on a 60 second clock is dumb, call it at 50 seconds, not 30. I say let the players have their own pace and only bring it out for the problem guy. I personally dont like having that thing hanging over my head. When they first starting using it, it mind boggled Varner. He just went to pieces.
Rama...

Sure sounds like Fast Liar Guninger

 

[ramdadingdong]

Sure sounds like Fast Liar Guninger

________________________________________________________________

apa7 I come in to contribute solid knowledge and facts to help other people in their games, none of which are lies, and you call me a fat liar. Sir, wait till I lie first to do that please. Can you post one lie I have written here this week please. If you can sir, I shall apologize for the lie and retract it.

Half of that is true, I am fat, but I have just lost 20 lbs, but am still fat. I apologize for being fat sir, I am trying desperatly to lose weight, some no matter what they do can't. I can smell a pizza and gain 5 lbs. I am considering beginning to starve my self. I can see no other alternative. I am only 20 lbs over my fighting weight, that is fat, but not as bad as some I see.
When people push past their prime, their metobolism changes and they are doomed to ever being slim again.

You can make fun of them all you want, most can't do much about their condition. You cannot reverse the aging process. Who is calling Buddy Hall fat, he can barely walk now and is the next Mizerak but you ignore him, but look at his picutes in the 70's, he was very thin, that is the point I make. When people age, they spread out. It must be some genetic thing. You can choose to ridicule some, ignore it in others. What about Minnesota Fats, being 300 lbs did not stop him from being the most famous player in history. He had no neck.

All wars end sir, I.E. we once hated the Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians and Vietnamese and today we are working with all of them closely. Peace always follows, because both parties seek it. They realize it does no real good to destroy totally the other one. These bitter enemies proved this can be turned around. If they could, then any one one these boards in flame wars now or in unresolved wars, can do same. One person must reach out and just say, now about we just let it ride. One peson must stop his attacks.

It takes two to tango, one can't desire peace with another person set on revenge and destruction filled with anger they cannot release and move on in their lives. All one can do then is ignore the attacker and pray for his/hers soul. Some where along the line you must stop punching back and just hold up your hands around your face to block the incoming blows or turn the other cheek and say, hit it again if you choose to, if that makes you feel good.

Wars happen on forums also, and these wars also should end and peace ensure. Long term stalking of a person is not normal or healthy. You find peace by simply releasing this. You forgive, forget, move on. Normal mentally healty people do that, get angry, cuss you out, forget, forgive, move on. The mentally unhealty person, needs this anger and revenge in their life. If they lose one victim, they will create a new one to take it's place. They are stalkers.

One person must apologize, say they are sorry, then the other guy must be a man and accept that apology and just let it all ride. Try try try, to let it ride. BTO. This is what pm's are for, apologies can take place there that save face and do not need to be seen by the net. Very few people if approaced correctly, politely, will not respond favorably to this after a cooling off period has elapsed.

The Chinese have a saying, before you go out to seek revenge, dig two graves, one for you victim, one for you soul. Revenge and hate is poison to your soul and to your personality and attitude, it eats you like a cancer. it can turn you into an animal. You wake up one day and think, how was it possible I said those things, did those things. That is not me, that is not what I am really like. It's like road rage, I call it internet rage. You actually want to kill someone over a written word, now how silly is that one once you ponder that. That rage can go on for a long time when two people just keep slapping each other in the face in an endless tit for tat.

Just as silly as somebody shooting somebody because he cut them off in traffic. People sit in prison for 7 years asking them self that same question, how in the hell did I ever do that.

Here is what I suggest, everyone who reads this copy and paste this part only and send it the the ad min mgr. Starting now and then every 6 months, put up a thread, board reconcilition day. On that day, every one who has flamed some body else reaches out to that person via pm, email or best via phone and say's to them, this is the day to bury the hachet, I have, I am sorry, lets just let it ride. It will reduce future flame wars and make a much happier board when the angers and wars of the past are put to rest.

All I know dear sir, is that I now know nothing, I am nothing but a blind squirrel in search of a nut. Please consider my friendly advice here. It is sent to you in peace.

Rama...

 

[APA7]

I thought that was you, Larry

I thought you said your were leaving, never to return because you hate us ignorant savages??? I guess you love us more than you thought

 

[sjm]

Well, I've reviewed this thread and thanks to all for their insights.

What I gather from what I've read is this. Other than maintaining the status quo, the two most popular choices seem to be:

1) Eliminate the shot clock and shorten the races to make it possible for ESPN to show the whole match. Sadly, this would likely mean a race to five (under extreme circumstances, even that wold have to be edited), but the beneift would be that players could let their personalities out a little more without fear of being called for a shot-clock foul.

2) Eliminate (or lengthen above thirty seconds) the shot clock, lengthen the race to a match deemed more appropriate by the players (perahps eleven for the men) and increase the amount of editing to fit the action into a one hour telecast. The quality of the pool shown would go up, and the more animated moments of matches could be focused on. The one negative would be at least a small increase in TV production costs.

Some argue that the shot clock cannot be eliminated, noting that the lethargic pace attributed to both Dick Lane and Frank Taberski should remind us that slow play must not be tolerated.