Shot clock in pool

fastone371

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What is the purpose of using a shot clock if player has to be reminded that time is running out let it be part of the game like in nfl nba or other major sports
I dont think the purpose of the shot clock is to penalize players, rather its to keep the game moving. I watch a lot of tournament videos, even though Im sure there are some shot clock penalties out there I have yet to see one.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
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Nice post.

I'd say the difference is that in pool, when one is crouched over the table, they usually cannot see the shot clock. By comparison, an NFL quarterback or an NBA player can easily sneak a peek at the shot clock while handling the ball. I think the beeper warning works very well in pool, and I don't buy into the claim of distraction. Pool players grow up practicing in loud poolrooms and should have no problem with background noise.

There is no evidence that the shot clock reduces the level of play at pro level, and as our old friend Grady Matthews used to say "If you can't think of something to do in thirty seconds, you should consider doing something else for a living." Those who really don't like the shot clock should take lessons from either Tony Drago or Luc Salvas, both of whom can teach them how to shoot every shot in under 20 seconds, thereby avoiding the shot clock completely.
 

Rickhem

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Nice post.

I'd say the difference is that in pool, when one is crouched over the table, they usually cannot see the shot clock. By comparison, an NFL quarterback or an NBA player can easily sneak a peek at the shot clock while handling the ball. I think the beeper warning works very well in pool, and I don't buy into the claim of distraction. Pool players grow up practicing in loud poolrooms and should have no problem with background noise.

There is no evidence that the shot clock reduces the level of play at pro level, and as our old friend Grady Matthews used to say "If you can't think of something to do in thirty seconds, you should consider doing something else for a living." Those who really don't like the shot clock should take lessons from either Tony Drago or Luc Salvas, both of whom can teach them how to shoot every shot in under 20 seconds, thereby avoiding the shot clock completely.
I watched Luc Salvas up at Turning Stone a year or two ago. He was playing Jennifer Barretta at the time and I was amazed at how fast he shot. Contrast that with how Jennifer plays. Luc would make a shot, and then move to a different place beside the table, and wait for the cue ball to get there so he could make his next shot. That was my first time seeing him and I couldn't believe how quickly he'd run out.
 

L.S. Dennis

Active member
I‘d like to see a 20 shot clock, and I’m sure Earl would agree. Nothing is more boring as a fan than to see players lumbering around the table and over analyzing everything. Im not sure everyone would agree, read Frank Tabereski,,,
 

Bob Jewett

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... There is no evidence that the shot clock reduces the level of play at pro level, and as our old friend Grady Matthews used to say "If you can't think of something to do in thirty seconds, you should consider doing something else for a living." Those who really don't like the shot clock should take lessons from either Tony Drago or Luc Salvas, both of whom can teach them how to shoot every shot in under 20 seconds, thereby avoiding the shot clock completely.
There are occasional situations that take a little more time to figure out. (I doubt that Grady got off all his one pockets shots in 30 seconds.) That's one reason I think the way chess uses a clock is better.

One of the ranking events at snooker has a 20-second shot clock for the first part of the frame and a 10-second shot clock for the last part of the frame. Maybe the real idea behind it is to show the slow players that a brisk pace does not hurt their game.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
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There are occasional situations that take a little more time to figure out. (I doubt that Grady got off all his one pockets shots in 30 seconds.) That's one reason I think the way chess uses a clock is better.

One of the ranking events at snooker has a 20-second shot clock for the first part of the frame and a 10-second shot clock for the last part of the frame. Maybe the real idea behind it is to show the slow players that a brisk pace does not hurt their game.
I'd be happy with a chess clock in pool, too.
 

Chili Palmer

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There are occasional situations that take a little more time to figure out. (I doubt that Grady got off all his one pockets shots in 30 seconds.) That's one reason I think the way chess uses a clock is better.

One of the ranking events at snooker has a 20-second shot clock for the first part of the frame and a 10-second shot clock for the last part of the frame. Maybe the real idea behind it is to show the slow players that a brisk pace does not hurt their game.

I saw this mentioned before (chess clock) - how do you think it would affect a game?

Pro - Matches would now have a predetermined length so scheduling/timing in tournaments would be easier.

Con? I think crafty people will come up with crafty things to exploit that clock - for instance if you're playing a slow walking/moving player just park the ball on the opposite side of the table when playing safe's. Clearly, ball layout would be key there but I could see it either 1) forcing that player to move faster and thus maybe get them out of stroke or 2) simply using up his time.

Can anyone think of any other ways (pros or cons) it would affect the game?
 

hang-the-9

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I saw this mentioned before (chess clock) - how do you think it would affect a game?

Pro - Matches would now have a predetermined length so scheduling/timing in tournaments would be easier.

Con? I think crafty people will come up with crafty things to exploit that clock - for instance if you're playing a slow walking/moving player just park the ball on the opposite side of the table when playing safe's. Clearly, ball layout would be key there but I could see it either 1) forcing that player to move faster and thus maybe get them out of stroke or 2) simply using up his time.

Can anyone think of any other ways (pros or cons) it would affect the game?

There was a tournament done in 30 minute sessions, I think it was maybe a 7 ball one. From what I remember it was only tried once. Not a great idea since you can just get a lead then stall for time to give your opponent less time to stage a comeback.

Match time or shot time is not really an issue to be fixed for pool, past the few players that really are very slow to the point of holding up the brackets. There should not be 2 hr races to 7 or 9 for example. In some local events I've had people ready to start their 3rd set when a table was just finishing the first. That is bad.
 

Bob Jewett

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... Can anyone think of any other ways (pros or cons) [a chess/game clock] would affect the game?
I've used a chess clock in two different 14.1 leagues. The time for the match gave 30 seconds per ball plus some for racking and such. Even though that was plenty, it made the slow players really nervous. That's either a pro or con depending on your own speed.

Before they had time control at chess, Paul Morphy (the greatest player in the 1850s) asked one opponent for a time limit of half an hour per move. The opponent refused.

There was a tournament done in 30 minute sessions, I think it was maybe a 7 ball one. From what I remember it was only tried once. Not a great idea since you can just get a lead then stall for time to give your opponent less time to stage a comeback.
Using something like a chess clock, you have your own time on your own clock. It is not community time. If your opponent slow plays, he is hurting himself because his clock is running, not yours.
 

Chili Palmer

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I've used a chess clock in two different 14.1 leagues. The time for the match gave 30 seconds per ball plus some for racking and such. Even though that was plenty, it made the slow players really nervous. That's either a pro or con depending on your own speed.

Roger. Who managed the clock? Players, TD, other?

Before they had time control at chess, Paul Morphy (the greatest player in the 1850s) asked one opponent for a time limit of half an hour per move. The opponent refused.

LOL, I used to play a lot of checkers online and found that some people (with 5 minute moves and no game time limit) would try stalling when they realized they were going to lose. They were hoping to stretch the game out for possibly hours so their opponent would quit. I'm not sure if it's a pro or con but I'm stubborn enough to have never quit one of those games. I would simply tell them, this will take approximately 15 moves so it will take 1.25 hours and I've got all the time in the world, they either quit or moved like normal ;)

That is also why I prefer speed checkers (1 min game each player) as it eliminates that issue. In person would be a different story.
 

Bob Jewett

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Roger. Who managed the clock? Players, TD, other?
...
The player whose inning just finished has to change the clock from counting down time from his time allotment to counting down time for the other player. Among other things, it makes the guy who just missed get back to his seat.

Here is a video that shows how it works. There is no referee at the table. The players run the clock themselves. This happens to be a match between world #1 and world #2. If you look very carefully, you can see that they have each started with 5 minutes (5:00) on their clocks for the whole game. Each time they finish a move, they get 2 seconds added to their time, so in theory a game could last forever except that chess has rules about stalemates.


There are various time formats from hours down to one minute total. Usually but not always there is a per-move increment. The clocks understand a lot of different modes and the times are all programmable. In the 14.1 league I mentioned before the time was 10 minutes + 30 seconds per ball + 20 second increment, and the total time was different for each player as the handicap was by ball count.
 

Geosnookery

Well-known member
I actually prefer when players take a bit more time in snooker matches. I like watching a player like Mark Selby or Neil Robertson walk around and evaluate the table. This puts me in a position of trying to decide; ‘what would I do? I like the games with a 30 second or so average shot time.

In contrast, players like Ronnie o’Sullivan and the Thai, Un-nooh, often shoot too fast for me to get a grip on the strategy. Although entertaining, I feel more like a passive observer than a participant.

Fortunatey really slow players are few and far between. Someone like Peter Ebdom is slow as molasses but it’s an eccentricity that fans actually enjoy to complain about.
 

9andout

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I watched Luc Salvas up at Turning Stone a year or two ago. He was playing Jennifer Barretta at the time and I was amazed at how fast he shot. Contrast that with how Jennifer plays. Luc would make a shot, and then move to a different place beside the table, and wait for the cue ball to get there so he could make his next shot. That was my first time seeing him and I couldn't believe how quickly he'd run out.
I like Jen. BUT I took a lotta heat when I criticized her slow play.
That was after a ridiculously slow semi she was in at the Expo that postponed the men's final. Eventually they started the men's before the women's semi finished. Way before.
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
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Nice post.

I'd say the difference is that in pool, when one is crouched over the table, they usually cannot see the shot clock. By comparison, an NFL quarterback or an NBA player can easily sneak a peek at the shot clock while handling the ball. I think the beeper warning works very well in pool, and I don't buy into the claim of distraction. Pool players grow up practicing in loud poolrooms and should have no problem with background noise.

There is no evidence that the shot clock reduces the level of play at pro level, and as our old friend Grady Matthews used to say "If you can't think of something to do in thirty seconds, you should consider doing something else for a living." Those who really don't like the shot clock should take lessons from either Tony Drago or Luc Salvas, both of whom can teach them how to shoot every shot in under 20 seconds, thereby avoiding the shot clock completely.
I'll add that shot clocks in the other sports involve between 4 and 10 other people who can remind you of the time left. In some sports you are also dealing with an earpiece which will tell you how much time is left.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
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I'll add that shot clocks in the other sports involve between 4 and 10 other people who can remind you of the time left. In some sports you are also dealing with an earpiece which will tell you how much time is left.
Excellent point.
 

Island Drive

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I saw this mentioned before (chess clock) - how do you think it would affect a game?

Pro - Matches would now have a predetermined length so scheduling/timing in tournaments would be easier.

Con? I think crafty people will come up with crafty things to exploit that clock - for instance if you're playing a slow walking/moving player just park the ball on the opposite side of the table when playing safe's. Clearly, ball layout would be key there but I could see it either 1) forcing that player to move faster and thus maybe get them out of stroke or 2) simply using up his time.

Can anyone think of any other ways (pros or cons) it would affect the game?
Watchin' Kaci in the US Open finals against Shaw at Mandalay, they used a 40 sec shot clock.
If you were down on your shot at 39 seconds there was No foul during execution, which I did not like.
The Up/Down look around that he took on each shot I found difficult to watch.
At that time, Kaci was a young up and coming player and, he's learned/evolved and no longer plays at that pace.
Stu remembers that match.
 

Chili Palmer

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Watchin' Kaci in the US Open finals against Shaw at Mandalay, they used a 40 sec shot clock.
If you were down on your shot at 39 seconds there was No foul during execution, which I did not like.
The Up/Down look around that he took on each shot I found difficult to watch.
At that time, Kaci was a young up and coming player and, he's learned/evolved and no longer plays at that pace.
Stu remembers that match.

Lol, where there's a will there's a way ;)

Have you seen any tournaments use that rule since then?
 

Bob Jewett

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... Have you seen any tournaments use that rule since then?
I think the standard for the shot clock in Accu-stats events has been "no time foul if down on the shot" for a long time.

At three cushion there is usually a 40-second shot clock with five seconds of beeping at the end. There is one player who times his final strokes with the beeping.
 
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