Shot Diagraming: Need Input From Folks With Deeper Knowledge

Callaghan

Callaghan

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
I watch a lot of older stuff from Accu-Stats. I’m an advanced beginner. I have found my stroke but I am in the process of learning how to use English to play position. Yesterday I was watching an old match on YouTube and a lightbulb went on: when I see one of these fantastic pro players execute a solid position shot, I should pause the damn video, diagram the shot, and make notes. I figured I would note the time stamp in the video, ball position, shot type etc. From here I can start building a library of shots as well as runs that I can reference in a video and use to improve play. Wow….not sure why I didn’t think of this two years ago. Here are my asks: Can experienced guys here take a look at this shot diagram and provide feedback on some important things I might be missing:


polish characters alt codes

Also….most of these shots I am diagraming are from 1995 and earlier. I’m playing on a GC 1 with Simonis 860. What year did Simonis really come into regular use in pro events? I ask because as I have started to practice these shots, I find I can get really damn close to replicating position, but not exact…I’m thinking cloth may be a factor…albeit minor. Thanks for the input.
 
Unless you have endless time to spend and nothing else to use it for, get the Dr Dave Tor Lowery and Bert Kinnister and Joe Tuckers shots and drills and instead of spending all that time drawing charts and writing down ideas, read and practice what they have..
There is a real problem ahead for you, unless you use a really low deflection cue. AS you apply spin to the cueball for position , your aim points will change on a lot of shots,
My suggestion would be to get a good low deflection cue, and start practicing pocketing. Say Joe Tuckers Drills, when you start getting accurate, then add spin , I also recommend the Wagon Wheel at this point , just high and low ,no side spin, most people ,me included used too much spin their whole lives, you can get most places with just hi and low or stun . And it makes pocketing balls , so much easier.
 
book collector said:
Unless you have endless time to spend and nothing else to use it for, get the Dr Dave Tor Lowery and Bert Kinnister and Joe Tuckers shots and drills and instead of spending all that time drawing charts and writing down ideas, read and practice what they have..
There is a real problem ahead for you, unless you use a really low deflection cue. AS you apply spin to the cueball for position , your aim points will change on a lot of shots,
My suggestion would be to get a good low deflection cue, and start practicing pocketing. Say Joe Tuckers Drills, when you start getting accurate, then add spin , I also recommend the Wagon Wheel at this point , just high and low ,no side spin, most people ,me included used too much spin their whole lives, you can get most places with just hi and low or stun . And it makes pocketing balls , so much easier.
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I do have a thousand or so ,of those pre printed tables, I used to copy trick shots or moves I saw that were new to me, over the last 45 years
 
book collector said:
Unless you have endless time to spend and nothing else to use it for, get the Dr Dave Tor Lowery and Bert Kinnister and Joe Tuckers shots and drills and instead of spending all that time drawing charts and writing down ideas, read and practice what they have..
There is a real problem ahead for you, unless you use a really low deflection cue. AS you apply spin to the cueball for position , your aim points will change on a lot of shots,
My suggestion would be to get a good low deflection cue, and start practicing pocketing. Say Joe Tuckers Drills, when you start getting accurate, then add spin , I also recommend the Wagon Wheel at this point , just high and low ,no side spin, most people ,me included used too much spin their whole lives, you can get most places with just hi and low or stun . And it makes pocketing balls , so much easier.
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100 percent. I started noticing this right away. My two primary playing cues are a 1994 Joss with the Joss high performance kielwood shaft (lower deflection) and a 1968 Palmer Model D….with a 13.5mm old growth shaft. I find that the aim points for both of these cues are essentially the same, which leads me to believe that the giant baseball bat shaft I have on the Palmer is also quite low deflection.

I have seen the wagon wheel drill, and will probably endeavor to undertake it. I’ve also purchased a lot of material from Dr. Dave, but in the past three or four days, I have glean a lot of decent information by diagramming these shots. I’m gonna keep doing it at least for a little while, and we’ll see where I am in a month or so.
 
So far, I think these diagrams have been helpful for me because I started Pool late in life, I don’t play in leagues, and I don’t go out to play in bars. I don’t have the benefit of having had the opportunity to watch people in person who know what they’re doing or who have the ability to explain what they’re doing to me.
 
That might be a great time to use the cards. when you come across something you don't understand , post it in the members forum or somewhere besides the main and let people see it, there are a ton of great players on here. Most like to help
 
'Bout all I can add or detract is, don't get ahead of yourself. These diagrams are for your study and should reflect that.
Also get a book that diagrams 2 and 3 cushion routes.
English should be intuitive but needs to be tackled as a ball control skill.
 
IMO, what you are doing might be one of the best ways possible to learn. Diagramming your own notebook from actual pro matches is more powerful a learning tool, IMO, than if that same exact diagram was in a drill book you bought and read. The act of making the learning aid helps you retain its message.

But, you MUST follow through and take the shot to the table for at least 10 tries each shot, maybe 100 tries, depending on the shot and your ability to execute it. Without this, its just a piece of paper with a shot, but its not a shot you actually know.
 
Callaghan said:
So far, I think these diagrams have been helpful for me because I started Pool late in life, I don’t play in leagues, and I don’t go out to play in bars. I don’t have the benefit of having had the opportunity to watch people in person who know what they’re doing or who have the ability to explain what they’re doing to me.
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That’s great!

If it works for you. Keep doing it.

Years ago I wrote down shots as well.

Good luck!

Fatboy 😃😃
 
As far as the particular shot, inches matter on diagrams. It looks like this shot is at the edge of what's possible due to the thin cut angle on the 7. And the CB won't come off the 2nd long rail like you have it drawn. It will go at a wider angle.

After I wrote that, I found the video and the shot. Indeed, I think you have both object balls too close to the end rail in your diagram. Efren's shot was a thicker hit.

Small details like that will have a much bigger influence on repeating a pro's shot, than the cloth used.

I think by the 90's, most pro events were on Simonis 760. 860 became popular in the late 90's. They both play the same as far as angles. I grew up on both of them in rooms in the same town.
 
You want to learn position play from watching pro billiard videos- great idea! Now, knowing what exactly should you be observing is the key to taking away the most benefit. If you already think that your stroke is straight through the cue ball and object ball through the chosen shot line- terrific! If your stroke is complete enough to impart your desired draw, follow, or side spin on the cue ball- also terrific. If you feel that your stroke is smooth enough from backstroke to cue ball impact and results in a great feel for speed control- even better!

NOW- watching those videos for position play benefits: 1. pay attention to the chosen cue ball routes from ball to ball - when do they go INTO a shot line and when do they choose to go across the shot line- and WHY! Secondly, pay close attention to the RAIL targets for the cue ball- where on the rail do they desire to strike with the cue ball after object ball contact to obtain desired position for the next shot. Third: when a simple center ball stun shot will not get the cue ball to the desired rail strike spot- what combination of draw/ follow / sidespin/ speed is being used to move that cue ball TO and FROM the desired rail strike point. This information is the key to great position- diagrammed or not.

DRAW and FOLLOW will be used to move the CB TO the desired rail strike point when center ball stun does not get them there- and sidespin inside or outside will move the CB OFF the rail into the chosen shot line- again- when center ball stun does not get them to the chosen rail target point. SPEED will always be a factor in each equation.

HOWEVER- getting the correct angle on each shot to MINIMIZE the use of anything on the CB but center ball will give you the highest consistency of successful position play - you won't have to worry as much about deflection.

I will add that for games such as 8 ball and 14.1 the other BIG key for position play will be to pay attention to PATTERN PLAY- ball to ball billiards--and how it is formed and executed.
 
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Callaghan said:
So far, I think these diagrams have been helpful for me because I started Pool late in life, I don’t play in leagues, and I don’t go out to play in bars. I don’t have the benefit of having had the opportunity to watch people in person who know what they’re doing or who have the ability to explain what they’re doing to me.
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None of that changes how pool is played.

Balls in holes, make em disappear and have fun at it.
 
iusedtoberich said:
... Small details like that will have a much bigger influence on repeating a pro's shot, than the cloth used. ....
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I think the OP can kind of get around the exact placement/conditions problems by finding how close the balls can be to the assumed position for the shot to be easy or for it to be just possible for him.

Related to equipment: I have a student whose home table has the slipperiest rail cloth I've ever seen. If you want to use running sidespin with follow to come two rails out of a corner, it's not going to happen. Maybe high nylon content? It is impossible to duplicate on that table many routine shots you see on tournament tables.
 
I very greatly appreciate everybody’s responses here. This is all very good feedback. Indeed, I don’t think that I am doing the best job of making sure that I put the balls in the exact spots that they show up in the match videos, but in each one of these shot diagrams I have done, I have been able to successfully re-create the shot; albeit after many many tries. The idea of building this shot library is to revisit the shots and practice them a couple times a week. I will be taking all of the advice people have provided me here very much to heart as I continue to evolve this process and build up my repertoire of shot studies.
 
Check these diagrams from another thread.
They are shots you should master.
It is called 60 minute workout from Bert Kinister.
I recommend strongly watch that old video too to get insights for practice.

Bert Kinister 60 Minute workout.

A few months ago, I purchased a membership to Bert Kinister's streaming website. Mainly i watched the 60 MInute workout and the Advanced workout. I was wondering if with the original purchase of the VHS(s) back in the day, would there have been a...
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