6 o clock. Nice stroke. I don't think there is any "cheating the pocket" on this shot, unless you are playing on a very generous (sloppy-ass loose) table. If anyone can cheat a 4-1/4" pocket on this shot while playing shape for the 2....I don't want to play him/her.
Shot Question for Pros and AZBers. :thumbup:
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
I haven't set the shot up yet, so I don't yet know what works best for me, but my first instinct tells me that using straight draw would be the best. You can aim lower on the cueball (since it goes all the way to the felt at that point 
), and it seems to be the most efficient way to get maximum draw. I'll set it up tonight... and probably prove myself wrong.
Aaron
), and it seems to be the most efficient way to get maximum draw. I'll set it up tonight... and probably prove myself wrong.Aaron
why would you need to elevate the cue to do this shot?
Just one more thing......
Yeah, you'd know I would have one more caveat. After you come close or actually perform this shot, I will want to know what type of equipment you used, especially the table specs. :smile:
It is kind of fun to see so many people contributing to the thread. I am very curious to see how many are able to come close to making the cue ball travel a similar path. And NO, I don't expect you to hang the cue ball up in the pocket. It's OK, if you scratch.
Let's hear some results, straight shooters.
Me, I haven't been able to do it on a 9 foot Diamond 3 piece slate table. The shelves of the pockets on most diamond tables are rather deep and when the shot is hit with some force, the object ball will jar. I have been able to hit the three ball but that's about it.
Every now and then it looks like I was starting to draw the cue ball close to the right path, only to see the object ball hitting the points of the pocket and rocketing across the table.
IF YOU CAN POCKET THE OBJECT BALL AND GET THE CUE BALL TO TRAVEL CLOSE TO THIS PATH and you are inclined as to say what type of shaft/taper/cue you are playing with ....well that would be great too.
Has anyone talked to Travis yet to see if he had a chance to try the shot?
It is always nice to hear the opinion of professional pool players.
Thanks,
JoeyA
Yeah, you'd know I would have one more caveat. After you come close or actually perform this shot, I will want to know what type of equipment you used, especially the table specs. :smile:
It is kind of fun to see so many people contributing to the thread. I am very curious to see how many are able to come close to making the cue ball travel a similar path. And NO, I don't expect you to hang the cue ball up in the pocket. It's OK, if you scratch.
Let's hear some results, straight shooters.
Me, I haven't been able to do it on a 9 foot Diamond 3 piece slate table. The shelves of the pockets on most diamond tables are rather deep and when the shot is hit with some force, the object ball will jar. I have been able to hit the three ball but that's about it.
Every now and then it looks like I was starting to draw the cue ball close to the right path, only to see the object ball hitting the points of the pocket and rocketing across the table.
IF YOU CAN POCKET THE OBJECT BALL AND GET THE CUE BALL TO TRAVEL CLOSE TO THIS PATH and you are inclined as to say what type of shaft/taper/cue you are playing with ....well that would be great too.
Has anyone talked to Travis yet to see if he had a chance to try the shot?
It is always nice to hear the opinion of professional pool players.
Thanks,
JoeyA
SPEED is the key
I agree with you, partly for the same reason (you can get lower without side), but also because both inside and outside spin affect the cue ball in ways that tend to cancel each other out: inside spin draws the CB back at a slightly tighter angle (because of the slight masse effect of the spin), but also forces you to overcut the shot, while outside spin allows you to undercut the shot but draws the CB back at a slightly wider angle (because of the slight masse effect of the spin). I think these two techniques sometimes work, but only when the cut angle is smaller than this one.
Another thing that has been mentioned but hasn't got enough attention is the speed of this shot. In order to draw the CB back as sharply as possible on a cut shot, you need to hit it as slowly as possible to avoid forcing it to go farther along the tangent line before curving back. This is another argument for using centerball so you can hit as low as possible (elevating the cue can also help with this, by increasing the spin/speed ratio). Some of the draw shots that mikepage described in an earlier post are based on this principle.
pj
chgo
P.S. Getting the CB into the corner pocket is a different challenge than hitting the head rail as close as possible to the corner pocket (JoeyA's earlier challenge using this same setup). To hit the pocket itself you have to avoid hitting the side rail, which may be impossible depending on the table. If you're forced to hit the side rail you probably can't hit the corner pocket, but then outside spin might be a better choice because it will widen the rebound angle off the side rail allowing you to hit the end rail closer to the pocket.
Aaron_S said:I haven't set the shot up yet, so I don't yet know what works best for me, but my first instinct tells me that using straight draw would be the best. You can aim lower on the cueball (since it goes all the way to the felt at that point
Aaron
I agree with you, partly for the same reason (you can get lower without side), but also because both inside and outside spin affect the cue ball in ways that tend to cancel each other out: inside spin draws the CB back at a slightly tighter angle (because of the slight masse effect of the spin), but also forces you to overcut the shot, while outside spin allows you to undercut the shot but draws the CB back at a slightly wider angle (because of the slight masse effect of the spin). I think these two techniques sometimes work, but only when the cut angle is smaller than this one.
Another thing that has been mentioned but hasn't got enough attention is the speed of this shot. In order to draw the CB back as sharply as possible on a cut shot, you need to hit it as slowly as possible to avoid forcing it to go farther along the tangent line before curving back. This is another argument for using centerball so you can hit as low as possible (elevating the cue can also help with this, by increasing the spin/speed ratio). Some of the draw shots that mikepage described in an earlier post are based on this principle.
pj
chgo
P.S. Getting the CB into the corner pocket is a different challenge than hitting the head rail as close as possible to the corner pocket (JoeyA's earlier challenge using this same setup). To hit the pocket itself you have to avoid hitting the side rail, which may be impossible depending on the table. If you're forced to hit the side rail you probably can't hit the corner pocket, but then outside spin might be a better choice because it will widen the rebound angle off the side rail allowing you to hit the end rail closer to the pocket.
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poolplayer2093 said:
If you elevate to masse height with inside spin, you can get the CB to masse away from the rail after hitting the OB. It's probably possible with this technique (assuming you're Semih Sayginer) to get the CB to hit the opposite side rail.
pj
chgo
Pete said:Is drawing the only option you want, becuase 11 o'clock maybe 10 should do. Just my opinion (though I'm the kind of guy who always draws
Pete
The goal of the shot isn't to get position on the 2. The 2 and 3 are only on the table as reference points; the goal of the shot is to draw the CB straight back into the pocket, or as close as possible to it, as shown.
-Andrew
If you're looking for the straightest possible return angle the technically correct answer would be left english, the more elevation / swerve the better.
This is due to swerve, not throw. Throw pretty much cancels out, hence with outside english (right side) any gain in OB throwing into the pocket is pretty much negated by an opposing CB deviation.
As for ease of shot, it depends on one's cuing / aiming preferences. Generally, whichever side tneds to make the player shoot the OB into the right edge, will tend to help them make a tighter CB return angle. Theoretically speaking though, the tightest angle, disregarding swerve, is a pure center draw shot played near miscue offset and optimum speed. This develops the highest spin:speed ratio.
Colin
This is due to swerve, not throw. Throw pretty much cancels out, hence with outside english (right side) any gain in OB throwing into the pocket is pretty much negated by an opposing CB deviation.
As for ease of shot, it depends on one's cuing / aiming preferences. Generally, whichever side tneds to make the player shoot the OB into the right edge, will tend to help them make a tighter CB return angle. Theoretically speaking though, the tightest angle, disregarding swerve, is a pure center draw shot played near miscue offset and optimum speed. This develops the highest spin:speed ratio.
Colin
Patrick Johnson said:
Speaking of elevation on draw shots reminds me of something I saw at the DCC. I was lucky enough to catch Efren giving a lesson to a boy who looked to be 10 or 12, and one of the shots they worked on was similar to this one. IIRC, it was something like this:
The kid, who had an amazing stroke BTW, was hitting the draw shot pretty well, but his cueball kept drifting too far to the side and ending up on the wrong side of the head rail (the black line). After giving him a few swings at it, Efren adjusted his bridge so that he was up on his fingertips and elevated about 15 degrees or so. Using this new setup, the kid hit the shot again but this time he got a real nice, snappy draw that came back much more sharply and allowed him to get on the correct side of the ball (as shown by the red line). It's one of those things I stored away in the memory banks and haven't really tried to apply yet, but I think I will play with it some on Joey's shot.
Aaron
Almost looks like you could cheat, undercutting, and get it toward the pocket with straight draw.
I'm no good, so in real life, I wouldn't be wanting to put inside on it unless I were a couple of diamonds closer. Might could do that as diagrammed, with a touch of inside, 20% or 25%. Think I could draw it straight on a path to maybe a diamond or two past the side fairly reliably, though. Which would be OK for position on 2 (even though we don't care, eh?).
I'm no good, so in real life, I wouldn't be wanting to put inside on it unless I were a couple of diamonds closer. Might could do that as diagrammed, with a touch of inside, 20% or 25%. Think I could draw it straight on a path to maybe a diamond or two past the side fairly reliably, though. Which would be OK for position on 2 (even though we don't care, eh?).
I apologize if this was taken in a harsh manner...
I have made it with outside, so it just gave me a laugh that someone would say that had "NO CHANCE" of working. The real goal here is to get people to try it themselves though, and not just talk about it.
It is a great drill, and can dramatically alter ones view of positional possibilites for a common leave. I strongly suggest to try the shot (from one diamond away from the OB along the sight line) yourself and post your results. From far away it is at best a low probability shot, from closer it opens up a whole side of the table for position w/out having to juice with inside and go 3-4 rails for position. It is a high % play from closer to the OB to pull the CB into the back corner position, if you use some outside along with your draw stroke IMO. Let us know what you think after you've tried it. I learned a lot from JoeyA's "power stroke drill", hope you do too! :smile:
td
dmgwalsh said:
I have made it with outside, so it just gave me a laugh that someone would say that had "NO CHANCE" of working. The real goal here is to get people to try it themselves though, and not just talk about it.
It is a great drill, and can dramatically alter ones view of positional possibilites for a common leave. I strongly suggest to try the shot (from one diamond away from the OB along the sight line) yourself and post your results. From far away it is at best a low probability shot, from closer it opens up a whole side of the table for position w/out having to juice with inside and go 3-4 rails for position. It is a high % play from closer to the OB to pull the CB into the back corner position, if you use some outside along with your draw stroke IMO. Let us know what you think after you've tried it. I learned a lot from JoeyA's "power stroke drill", hope you do too! :smile:
td
JoeyA said:
It didn't appear to be so, Joey, but I wasn't viewing from the optimum distance/angle to be 100% certain. I wish I could have caught the verbal instruction Efren was giving on the shot, but I was busy talking to Charlie Bryant at time, and didn't want to interrupt him. In retrospect, I should have asked Charlie for his thoughts on the shot while I had his ear. It certainly struck me as being one of those priceless nuggets of information being passed down. What a great opportunity for that young man.
Aaron
GC4, 4 1/2 pockets measured like in the Diamond table vidio. I did scratch once but missed the OB. Only once did I get it between the pocket and ball. I used a half tip of right.
I have to just touch the point of the pocket to score between pocket and rail. Needless to say many, many jawed out balls. I mostly hit the center diamond.
I was horible shoting to the other side
I have to just touch the point of the pocket to score between pocket and rail. Needless to say many, many jawed out balls. I mostly hit the center diamond.
I was horible shoting to the other side
I was practicing a very similar shot except it was straight in.
I was just trying to draw it straight back into the end rail.
Rafael Martinez noticed what I was trying to do and suggested two things.
Get Down on the cue (chin on the shaft.. thing) spreading your legs more usually helps on this 'getting down more'
The other was to make sure your cue is as low as you feel 'comfortable" and then some more and MAKE SURE you follow through.
Worked the first time.
I was just trying to draw it straight back into the end rail.
Rafael Martinez noticed what I was trying to do and suggested two things.
Get Down on the cue (chin on the shaft.. thing) spreading your legs more usually helps on this 'getting down more'
The other was to make sure your cue is as low as you feel 'comfortable" and then some more and MAKE SURE you follow through.
Worked the first time.
Tom In Cincy said:
The bridge that allows me to get the lowest is a "fist" bridge, made by making a fist (all fingers tucked under) and then raising only your index finger to make a loop with the tip of your thumb. With this bridge the only thing under the shaft is your thumb, which lays flat on the cloth.
pj
chgo
Are you sure this was the shot? I ask because as far as I understand iit, the theoretical limit for the drawback angle (level cue) is twice the cut angle from straight back along the cueball's original (pre-impact) path. In the diagram, this would be twice the angle formed by the two red lines. And this can only be achieved with an ideal squirtless cue when striking the cueball at the "miscue limit" of (1/2)R below center, and having no spin dissipated on the way to the OB or during impact with it. So at least for a level cue, the black line seems closer to a representation of that limit.Aaron_S said:
What's important is the spin/speed ratio (horizontal speed), and you did mention that Efren jacked up by about 15 degrees. By itself, 15 degrees doesn't reduce the horizontal speed part by much, only about 3-4 percent. So you need a very significant increase in the tip offset beyond the "miscue limit" to get the kind of draw action represented in the diagram. In fact, in order for the cueball to draw back along the impact line (lower red line) with a level cue, you need a ratio of 2.5. This translates to striking the cueball at its very edge, or a tip offset of (1.0)R, or close to it when you factor in that 3-4% reduction in horizontal speed. (By comparison, hitting at (1/2)R produces a ratio of 1.25.) Without any other funny business going on, such as significant swerve (masse) action, it doesn't seem possible on the face of it.
To predict, more or less, the exact combination of sidespin and draw required to bring the cueball back along a certain line and a certain distance (as in Joey's original question) would take pages and pages of algebra, and most likely a computer program to spit out a number. It depends on how many reality tweaks (throw, bouncing, etc.) you want to deal with. But my feeling is that you're going to need a lot of masse help with this one. Joey's shot is maybe doable with straight draw. Not sure though if you can avoid hitting the near cushion.
Jim
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