Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

The OP does. That's why he brought the subject up.

all I’m saying is there is a point between 2 players skill levels that the race isn’t going to be even. Even in APA league play. The biggest spot a 2 will ever get from a top level player is going to be 7-2 in 8. In 9 ball 19-75 or slightly under that. A 3 is a 6-2 8 ball 3-1(25-75) 9 ball race. 6-2 is reasonable in 9 ball going off of that. Even APA doesn’t think it’s fair to go to only 1 game and win. And they cater to the lower level players. Plus he already runs a low level tournament weekly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The biggest spot a 2 will ever get from a top level player is going to be 7-2 in 8. ...

Nah. In one nine ball league I had to give up 10-2 to a player. It was a fair spot. In a 14.1 league I had to give up 120-20. That was fair, too.

The problem is that the range of abilities in pool is immense. Someone who SVB will beat like a rented mule (FR 650) will in turn beat a 250 like they're shooting with the wrong end of the cue. If you allow a wide range of players into your handicapped tournament, and want to give the weak players any kind of chance, there will be huge spots.

At nine ball the 2 beat me 2-0 once. I deserved it for two bad mistakes. The 20 got to 12 before I got to 30, so I started to play a lot more safes. They didn't score again.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Nah. In one nine ball league I had to give up 10-2 to a player. It was a fair spot. In a 14.1 league I had to give up 120-20. That was fair, too.

The problem is that the range of abilities in pool is immense. Someone who SVB will beat like a rented mule (FR 650) will in turn beat a 250 like they're shooting with the wrong end of the cue. If you allow a wide range of players into your handicapped tournament, and want to give the weak players any kind of chance, there will be huge spots.

At nine ball the 2 beat me 2-0 once. I deserved it for two bad mistakes. The 20 got to 12 before I got to 30, so I started to play a lot more safes. They didn't score again.

But Bob on a technical basis off fargorates 10-2 race isn’t even fair sometimes. If there is a 300 vs a 600 the race is supposed to be 8-1, cause the 600 is supposed to be 8x better. So if you were a 650 and your opponent was a 350 it should be 8-1 or 16-2 race to be an even match. There is no time for that in a $20 tournament. That 650 vs 250 you mention is a 16-1 race. Is that fair? If the 250 is playing for real maybe. If they are trying to make the 9 every shot there is no way that’s a reasonable match for the 650. Luck alone is going to pocket the 9 at least once in 16 games.


I beat my fiance 8-1, or 8-2 all the time not trying my hardest and she is a 290. Im only a 500. Im supposed to win 4-1. Always 8-0 or 8-1 when I am trying. Never 4-1. Even with the fargorated tournaments I’ve been in. Against 300’s I’m right around 8 games won to 2 games lost, but how many matches do you think I lost to them? 0. I haven’t lost any match to a 300 something. I might allow them to hit the hill but I don’t let them win the match. Haven’t yet anyway. One girl just above 400 did beat me fair and square once-4-2. She had the 4 to my 2. She destroyed me! Never the 300’s though.

Its just too big a discrepancy in abilities to quantify it when dealing with players who are yet to build solid foundations.

 

[The_JV]

Its just too big a discrepancy in abilities to quantify it when dealing with players who are yet to build solid foundations.

I was going to respond to Bob and make a comment about expectations, but you're already 90% of the way toward what I was going to say so I may as well piggyback your comment above.

Much like there should be a cut off to prevent the elite from poaching weekly tourneys. There should be a of line of personal accountability drawn in the sand for the bottom feeders. You should not expect to have a fair shake at competing against the mid or top tier players if you're still trying to figure out how to hold a cue. The limits of expectation need to be applied to both ends of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with allowing the DOA Money to donate if they choose to, but collection of said entry should come with a warning imo.

The rule sets also plays a heavy factor in what is effective handicapping. A player racing to 2 in a winner break format where the money ball is wild, is scary for the best of us.

 

[rexus31]

My buddy recently played in a Fargo rated 9B event. He’s a 620 and his opponent was a 376. The race was 5-3. The 376 rode the 9 on every shot and got, shall we say, fortunate leaves when nothing dropped, en route to a 3-2 win. The format was loser breaks. Granted, my buddy made a couple mistakes, but still should have won if not for the luck factor. IMO, if you are going to have a handicapped 9B event, the money ball should have to be called or no early money balls. The spot wasn’t huge in this instance, but it plays huge when the money ball is flying around the table on every other shot.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Nah. In one nine ball league I had to give up 10-2 to a player. It was a fair spot. In a 14.1 league I had to give up 120-20. That was fair, too.

I can see that being a fair spot in 14.1. I feel like 2 games is nothing in 9 ball. I guess the wild card aspect of flying a nine, getting a dead combo or dogging the 8 keeps the game exciting and that's why we play 9 ball.

Much like there should be a cut off to prevent the elite from poaching weekly tourneys. There should be a of line of personal accountability drawn in the sand for the bottom feeders

I agree. I guess the Weirton I have is what is the minimum and maximum level? What is the minimum level of initiative or diligence we should expect from someone who wants to enter a tournament? I'd say 200-250 FR is the lower end of applying yourself. Otherwise just play bingo.

600 seems to be the standard cutoff at the high end. I think it takes a lot of dedication to get to that level, to exceed that, there are many other things you have decided are not important, you are definitely not keeping up with the Kadashians of you want to play at the level.

 

[tomatoshooter]

My buddy recently played in a Fargo rated 9B event. He’s a 620 and his opponent was a 376. The race was 5-3. The 376 rode the 9 on every shot and got, shall we say, fortunate leaves when nothing dropped, en route to a 3-2 win. The format was loser breaks. Granted, my buddy made a couple mistakes, but still should have won if not for the luck factor. IMO, if you are going to have a handicapped 9B event, the money ball should have to be called or no early money balls. The spot wasn’t huge in this instance, but it plays huge when the money ball is flying around the table on every other shot.

That's 9 ball. A couple of mistakes can easily blow open any race. I've been shut out 4-0 in races to 4. If my opponent hasn't gotten a 9 on the break, I hadn't dogged a shot, and missed positron, it would have been hill- Hill.

 

[9BallKY]

That's 9 ball. A couple of mistakes can easily blow open any race. I've been shut out 4-0 in races to 4. If my opponent hasn't gotten a 9 on the break, I hadn't dogged a shot, and missed positron, it would have been hill- Hill.

Anytime you are playing short races anything can happen and will happen at some point. Trust me I’ve lost sets that I should have won easily on paper but things happen especially if someone is just free rolling. I played a guy in a race to 3 one time and he said I know I can’t out shoot you so I’m going to roll the 9. He beat me 3-2 on 2 flukes and a wired combo.

 

[9BallKY]

One of the toughest tournaments I play is a race to 2 loser break 8 ball tournament. It’s open to anyone. A lot of times the tournament is won by a good player but those good players have to dodge bullets a lot. Also the money is a tough fade. I usually sell for around $350 in the Calcutta. 3rd place usually pays about $350 which means I have to get 3rd or better every time I play just to break even.

Now the guy that sells for $40 can play several times on what it cost me to play in one tournament and he only has to cash in 1 of 8 events to break even.

 

[The_JV]

I agree. I guess the Weirton I have is what is the minimum and maximum level? What is the minimum level of initiative or diligence we should expect from someone who wants to enter a tournament? I'd say 200-250 FR is the lower end of applying yourself. Otherwise just play bingo.

Tough call... Guess those limits would be region specific. However I don't think the lower limit need be a hard cut off. More so, "Our system bottoms out at a ~300 applicable fargo rating. Skill levels lower are welcome but not compensated further."

600 seems to be the standard cutoff at the high end. I think it takes a lot of dedication to get to that level, to exceed that, there are many other things you have decided are not important, you are definitely not keeping up with the Kadashians of you want to play at the level.

600 seems low to me as far as dedication is concerned, but not far off. I did a quick/dirty fargo search of the usual suspects in my area, and we start running into the stronger mid tier at 600. However these guys aren't putting actual effort into developing their games. More so the group that has plateaued and are content. Those guys bumping their heads off that ceiling typically dominate those below them. Then there's a good jump into the strong locals that would still be cut off with a 625 cap but would own local events if allowed to. Finally the elite that are above the 650 mark that are likely to win despite handicapping.

Should note that only the >=strong have acquired enough racks in fargo to have a reliable rating.

 

[derangedhermit]

Maybe people enjoy it most when they are matched against roughly equal competition. Maybe somewhat better, but not five times better (or worse). You could organize a tournament along these lines if you roughly group the players, say in FR terms groups of 100 to 125 FR.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Tough call...

The only reason it's a tough call is because handicapping is inherently unfair.

 

[ChrisinNC]

My buddy recently played in a Fargo rated 9B event. He’s a 620 and his opponent was a 376. The race was 5-3. The 376 rode the 9 on every shot and got, shall we say, fortunate leaves when nothing dropped, en route to a 3-2 win. The format was loser breaks. Granted, my buddy made a couple mistakes, but still should have won if not for the luck factor. IMO, if you are going to have a handicapped 9B event, the money ball should have to be called or no early money balls. The spot wasn’t huge in this instance, but it plays huge when the money ball is flying around the table on every other shot.

When you are playing a player like that, and we have a few, you constantly have to be aware of what you leave when you shoot, whether it’s a miss or a safety.

 

[rexus31]

When you are playing a player like that, and we have a few, you constantly have to be aware of what you leave when you shoot, whether it’s a miss or a safety.

100%

 

[rexus31]

Instead of events with Fargo caps, there should be events with Fargo minimums to prevent the lopsided handicapping.

 

[The_JV]

The only reason it's a tough call is because handicapping is inherently unfair.

In context, the 'tough call' is where to drawn the line on the bottom end so the expectations of the uninitiated aren't inflated. Giving weight to the weak(er) isn't generally a bad approach. Certainly when you're trying to fill a room for a local tourney.

Is handicapping unfair...?...., sure, but only to those giving up the weight who feel they've earned the right to win everything with ease. For the record, I'm one of those guys that gives up the world so Mr. JoeBob is willing to donate his $20. I don't have a problem with it and "fair" never enters my mind.

 

[The_JV]

Instead of events with Fargo caps, there should be events with Fargo minimums to prevent the lopsided handicapping.

Exactly what I was getting at with the management of expectations. No reason the 200 can't play in the event gauged toward the 350-550 crowd. Just let them know they are out of their depth and that they should consider that when measuring their results.

Really no different than me entering the USopen. Went out/out and not complaining in the slightest.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The spot wasn’t huge in this instance, but it plays huge when the money ball is flying around the table on every other shot.

Most weak players don't realize that they are not Fedor Gorst. They try to run the table just like Fedor would. The only time they should try to run the table is when only one or two balls are left. From a previous post when we were discussing the wisdom of riding the money....

For Hotel Al it was the right strategy.​

​

Al played in the weekly 9-ball tournament at Executive Billiards in Redwood City, CA, which was the west-coast base for Nick Varner. Al's rating was low enough that he played the top players with a 3-on-6 spot (games on the wire). (Al lived at a nearby long-term hotel.)​

​

Al was one of the few players of his level who realized the correct strategy for him for nine ball. He (and everyone at his level) was incapable of running five balls. There was no point for him to pocket the 1 ball when the 9 was in the vicinity and could be made to come close to 2 or 3 pockets. Al had a good, strong stroke though not very accurate.​

​

If the 9 was impossible to reach from the 1, Al would grudgingly pocket it and try to line up the 2-9 or a carom from the 2 to the 9. The psychological effect on most of his opponents was quite amusing.​

​

One night I drew Al for a 6-3 match. I decided to fight fire with fire. I had played a lot of ring nine ball and under the "best effort to hit" rule, the best strategy is often to get as many balls moving as possible, so my riding skills were already honed. I think I won 6-1 and four of my games were by riding the money. Al was shaking a little at the end.​

 

[justadub]

Anytime you are playing short races anything can happen and will happen at some point. Trust me I’ve lost sets that I should have won easily on paper but things happen especially if someone is just free rolling. I played a guy in a race to 3 one time and he said I know I can’t out shoot you so I’m going to roll the 9. He beat me 3-2 on 2 flukes and a wired combo.

As an awful player in a room where most folks know one another, I can tell you that it makes a big impact on the beginners when one of the better players in the room loses on a lucky scenario like this, and loses gracefully. Most everyone knows that they don't have a chance against him, save for handicap AND luck. So on the odd occasional that it happens, and the better player is so cool, it brings the enjoyment of the tournament up for virtually everyone.

It's been lost in the long discussion, but I still maintain that as a much lower level player, I don't want nor expect it to be handicapped 50/50, if such a thing were even possible. (Which it isn't) I just want to know if I'm helping fund the prize fund for the winners, that I have an outside chance to finish well, IF I get lucky, play over my head, and my opponent doesn't play their best. Then there is a reason to play, cuz of the "you're telling me there's a chance" factor.

 

[maha]

yes and in money events if luck isnt a factor the tournament goes away or becomes a trophy event.

they have 200 to 500 dollar entry fee in minor tournament in pool, in various states and getting more than a couple dozen entries is tough.

yet poker tournaments get hundreds of entries with many having little chance of winning but a half decent chance of getting a small payday because of luck.
and so the top players make even more money but have to suffer bigger swings in their results.