Should Corey be punished in RENO for being smart.

Tom In Cincy said:
It is my opinion that all the Money Matches should be 'ALL BALL Fouls' and a referee be present at each table and racking for each game.

If I am not mistaken, the rules at the Reno event were modified Texas Express. Does anyone know for sure?

And, the 2 ball was to be placed in the 4th row.

Anyone posting attend the Players meeting?
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Rules in Reno were Texas Express, rack your own, no specification on ball placement other than the one and the nine ball. Three foul rule was in effect, jump shots had to be executed with your shooting cue.

95% of the players in the tournament had no problems with rack your own or how someone broke the balls. The same players that complain about rack your own also will not accept most racks their opponents rack for them either. It is a move and should be dealt with in some manner as it is unsportsmanlike.

Also, most pro tournaments do not have a referee at each table which is what you need to play all ball fouls. The semi finals and finals in Reno were racked by Ken Schuman and I have not heard any complaints there.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Why, when someone is within the rules of the venue, are they punished for exploiting them in their own way.
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Thank you, thank you thank you (seriously) for uttering a voice of reason! 100% agree. In general, if you don't like the way somebody is playing, you need to change the rules accordingly. Don't complain about the rules as they stand, you didn't have to enter if you didn't agree with the rules.
 
i don't know, i just think there are a LOT of illogical philosophies in this thread.

it should never be assumed that a player is making a "move" or somehow cheating if he is breaking soft!!!! cb control is the most important aspect of the game, without a doubt. if a player wants to break soft so as to control the cb better he should have every right to do so, and he should not have to put up with anything for doing it either.

its illogical statements like the ones which abound in this thread that keep the sport's rules from progessing in the peoper direction and then we get hideous things like "3 balls must pass the headstring" and such on the break.

you HAVE to let a professional player exercise his best judgement at the table, and not compell him to break hard because it is "exciting" or because you cant beat him any other way. that is totally, 100% ridiculous.
 
I have played Stevie in tournaments and he has always been very easy going. Without us knowing what his complaint about Corey's racks were this thread is all speculation. If the racks were slightly tilted making it easier to soft break the corner ball in, then Steivie had a ligitimate complaint.
 
Corey's Rack

I don't like the soft break and think it should be outlawed. I remember one of the big tournaments recently Superman was soft breaking and making the same ball in the side everytime. It became boring to watch (more like straight pool) since there was no excitement "if" a ball would go on the break. The TD finally brought in a different table and he was not allowed to soft break anymore. Darryl Peach beat Superman in the finals as I recall.

Since the soft break is legal in the Reno Open it should be allowed. When Cory is racking his own rack I'm sure he was fine tuning in the rack/break on the table his was going to play on to make sure his soft break was making a ball on the break. I'm sure he would move the rack forward/ backward/left/right etc to adjust the rack just right. By making the same ball in the same pocket he could play shape on the one ball. If he was making the one ball on the break he could put the two ball in the same spot in the rack and play shape on it. THIS IS A BIG ADVANTAGE to say the least.

By having somebody else (opponent or TD) he couldn't control the break as well and the two ball would be ramdomly placed in the rack.
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
I don't like the soft break and think it should be outlawed. I remember one of the big tournaments recently Superman was soft breaking and making the same ball in the side everytime. It became boring to watch (more like straight pool) since there was no excitement "if" a ball would go on the break. The TD finally brought in a different table and he was not allowed to soft break anymore. Darryl Peach beat Superman in the finals as I recall.

Since the soft break is legal in the Reno Open it should be allowed. When Cory is racking his own rack I'm sure he was fine tuning in the rack/break on the table his was going to play on to make sure his soft break was making a ball on the break. I'm sure he would move the rack forward/ backward/left/right etc to adjust the rack just right. By making the same ball in the same pocket he could play shape on the one ball. If he was making the one ball on the break he could put the two ball in the same spot in the rack and play shape on it. THIS IS A BIG ADVANTAGE to say the least.

By having somebody else (opponent or TD) he couldn't control the break as well and the two ball would be ramdomly placed in the rack.
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first, forgive my redundancy, but.....

you can't cite your reason for professional pool players having to break hard as "it's boring." im sorry but that is just illogical. it dont matter if it is boring, if it is boring then pool is boring, not the way the player was breaking.

put it this way, there is almost NO difference between what you are saying and this: "i think people should not be allowed to play perfect position because shotmaking is exciting, i want to see exciting pool." if you refuse to logically think about something then i feel we should not even state our opinions because it degrades our rules.

THINK people! please.
 
I was there and watched Corey play a few of his matches. The balls were racked "unrandomly". The one ball almost always went in the side and the six ball almost always went into the corner. Every rack it was the same table lay out. Corey is a great player and great ball pocketer anyways, I don't know why he'd want the boredom of running the same continuous rack every time. Where's the challenge in that?
 
hilla_hilla said:
I was there and watched Corey play a few of his matches. The balls were racked "unrandomly". The one ball almost always went in the side and the six ball almost always went into the corner. Every rack it was the same table lay out. Corey is a great player and great ball pocketer anyways, I don't know why he'd want the boredom of running the same continuous rack every time. Where's the challenge in that?
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to answer, he was there to give himself the best chance of winning possible. he wasn't there to entertain or diminish his chances of winning by "challenging himself."

you make an interesting note though..... the fact is there is no way to enforce the "random" rule.... one way around it would be to have a certain racking order for a tournament, where all racks must be racked in that order.

i don't know corey but id bet that he would welcome good changes in the rules that may make or force him break and rack differently. one thing is for SURE, he should not be blamed for giving himself the best chance to win as he sees it under the rules of the event, in fact any less would speak bad on him as far as his potential sponsor(s) are concerned.
 
hilla_hilla said:
Where's the challenge in that?
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I don't want to sound rude in any way, but as a pool player, this just doesn't make any sense to me.

Professional players do not enter tournaments to challenge themselves.
They enter tournaments to MAKE MONEY!
The weekend warriors go to pro venues to challenge themselves to see how good they do. Pros are above that and have the $$$$ they might win figured into the equation.

The easier that goal is accomplished, the better.

I'd be willing to bet that if a player had a chance to pocket 15K simply by shooting a straight in duck the entire time, they would JUMP on that opportunity.
 
NINEBALLART said:
I wasn't in Reno but had two friends that were...They said Stevie was complaining about everyone's rack he played..He always complains about his opponet's racks....I really think in that case it is a sharking move...At least my friend's thought so.....
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Then it's a move.
Simple as that.

I'd like to see a tournament where the guy who complains about something so petty, gets tossed.

See if they open their mouths THEN!
 
Where's Donnie Mills ?

Would be great to get Donnies inpute on this rack your own debate since he really has it figured out himself....It might be a little different then the soft break but very close in other aspects of it...I love Donnie's game but I don't see him woofing rack your own 10 ball..same as Corey not soft breaking 10 ball...Would just like his opinion to shed some lite on the controvercy
 
If anything, I think the balls should be in random order. Also with rack your own, I think the 9 ball should be spotted if made on the break.

Corey is brilliant for his creativity as far as his soft break. I just think it's boring to watch. Especially knowing that he is such a great shot maker!
 
SUPERSTAR said:
I don't want to sound rude in any way, but as a pool player, this just doesn't make any sense to me.

Professional players do not enter tournaments to challenge themselves.
They enter tournaments to MAKE MONEY!
The weekend warriors go to pro venues to challenge themselves to see how good they do. Pros are above that and have the $$$$ they might win figured into the equation.

The easier that goal is accomplished, the better.

I'd be willing to bet that if a player had a chance to pocket 15K simply by shooting a straight in duck the entire time, they would JUMP on that opportunity.
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I understand that, and it makes perfect sense, but as a spectator, I don't want to pay to watch the same rack being played OVER and OVER again. At least rack the balls unrandomly. Give us a different shot every other rack or something...
 
real bartram said:
if corey knows more than you about the rack or soft break take it like a man and let him play. when everyone breaks hard and he cant does he cry to the td and tell them they cant break so hard.
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EXACTLY -- if it was so simple, everyone would do it. But they can't or don't have the patience and practice Corey has shown to figure it out.

I have more respect for Corey and his soft break - not less as many posters in this thread have stated.
 
pooladdict said:
You can find the rules here: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball

regarding racking:
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern. (put in Bold by me)

Anyway, how did they rack in Mosconi Cup? It seemed very hard to make a ball with consistency. I suspect that the balls were tapped, nine-ball on the spot, break box enforced and to avoid the soft break they required three balls made or behind the kitchen line on the break. Can anyone confirm this? It seemed to be working there, the players were struggling with the break
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Thank you for provided 2.2 - Nine Ball Rack above. Let's wait for closing remarks and final ruling by the Honorable J. Learned Hand.
 
Corey's Rack

"first, forgive my redundancy, but.....

you can't cite your reason for professional pool players having to break hard as "it's boring." im sorry but that is just illogical. it dont matter if it is boring, if it is boring then pool is boring, not the way the player was breaking.

put it this way, there is almost NO difference between what you are saying and this: "i think people should not be allowed to play perfect position because shotmaking is exciting, i want to see exciting pool." if you refuse to logically think about something then i feel we should not even state our opinions because it degrades our rules.

THINK people! please."

Let me put it in another way!. Why don't we just play ball in hand after the break. This is what Corey is doing by soft breaking and playing position on the one ball. This seems to be the Logical answer to me why its not fair! Controlling the cue ball on the break is one thing but making the same ball over and over again is not a ramdon event which is what the break should be.

I'm sure letting the professional card dealer who can deal cards in the order he wants go into all the card games is ok also with your logic.
 
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After considerable input from the many respected posters it has become clear that there are two rules contemplated. First, the WPA rules. Thereunder, the balls must be racked in random order. This requirement is made crystal clear by the language within the rule (See the other balls WILL be placed...). Second, the Texas Express rules. Thereunder, randomness is not required.

With the contemplated rules explained, the next step is to determine under what rules the Reno tournament was actually played. If played under WPA rules, CD must rack the balls randomly, one and nine notwithstanding, when racking his own. If played under Texas Express rules, he may rack in any order so long as the one is in front and the nine is in the center. Rather than speculate, I called Gabe Owen to discuss the rules of this particular tourney. As most, if not all, of you are aware Mr. Owen participated in the event.

Mr. Owen offered that although he was unsure about the official rules employed, randomness was required. In fact, he added that the TD enforced this rule on CD from his second match on including the match with Stevie Moore. Thus, from the second match on, CD racked randomely and played a controlled speed break all the while within the rules.

It should be noted neither rule seems to require the break be struck with maximum (or minimum) speed on every occasion. Accordingly, CD, in attempting to manipulate the result of the break shot by reducing its speed, did nothing wrong.

To review, CD racked randomly and controlled the speed of his break during all matches save the one with James Todd. In his match with Stevie Moore, he was in compliance with the rules for the event.

For whatever reason, Mr. Moore took issue with CD's breaking. Due mostly to the old maxim "into the mind of another we cannot go" we will probably never know why.
 
Mixed emotions here. On the one hand, the soft break is available to all, so others should learn it and master it, just as Corey has.

The argument against, however, is that the soft break disenfranchises fans. The very fact that anything other than the dominant bar and league game of eight ball is not being played is unfortunate for the typical not-very-serious-about-pool fan. The typical bar player views having a powerful break as one of the staples of the great player. In this respect, nine ball and eight ball were always the same, at least until the soft break came along, which is why I feel that allowing the soft break makes the game less attractive to all but ther most serious die-hard fans.

If the rules permit the soft break, nobody has any right to take exception to Corey's break. Still, I feel that the soft break makes nine ball, a game already too unrecognizable to most bar and league players, even more unrecognizable to them. That, to me, is bad for our sport.
 
Of course Corey shouldn't be allowed to take luck out of the break!

And, Tennis players should be forced to underhand serve, it's too damn fast!

Slap shots in hockey should be illegal, see above.

Curve balls in baseball should be barred, it's the devils throw!

Golfers should always use the driver off the tee, irons are boring.

Slam Dunks in Basketball shouldn't be allowed, not everyone can reach you know!

Actually, I just had an idea, playing position on any shot should be illegal in pool. Any shot that isn't played centre ball and really hard should be a foul.

:D :D :D :D :D
 
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