should pro tournaments ban the jump cue?

[DynoDan]

I don't get the hate towards jump cues.
why not also ban LD and carbon shafts, ban fast cloth, ban those fancy break cues, ban multi layer tips, ban barbox, ban cue extensions, ban using a bridge..

I think those that fell in love with the ‘traditional’ game when young (and thus admired the historically great players), would really like to excel using only the same equipment they did (no gimmicks). Some exceptions seem reasonable: The scarcity of good shaft wood may justify lamination & carbon fiber, breaking may damage your valuable vintage or custom cue stick, and handicapped players in wheelchairs have typically been forced to use extensions.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Because all those other things enhance the game, and a jump cue makes it less of a game and more of an equipment gimmick. You can play on any cloth, you can use any shaft, you can use any tip, but you sure as hell can't jump a full ball near another one with a normal stick. The shot becomes possible ONLY because of the short light cue and it makes it too easy to negate a core element of the game. And the other jump shots people execute with their full cue are done based on skill and practice. I don't want a part of a game made trivial due to equipment, my son when he was 12 jumped a full ball on his 3rd every try with a jump cue, that is the skill level we want to aspire to? 12 yr old with no practice skill level good for everyone?

You might call a jump cue a "gimmick", but there are pros that are way better at jumping with a jump cue than other pros. You make it sound like anyone can make the vast majority of jump shots if they merely use a jump cue. But that just isn't the case at all. Sure, a jump cue makes it much easier to get the cue ball into the air, but that doesn't mean that the person doing the jumping will make the ball or get the desired leave after the shot.

 

[ShootingArts]

I see I got quoted a good bit by people on both sides of the jump stick debate. Just one example of my problem with jump cues; I have seen someone insisting he made a legal jump shot with one business card of distance between the balls, edgewise to be clear. The ball goes straight up six or eight inches, then forwards! I can kinda understand how it is possible to get the ball to jump straight up but it will take a lot of explaining for me to believe the highly asymmetrical path the cue ball took after going straight up if it didn't touch the stick. Shot is illegal on two points. Something other than the tip touches the cue ball and it is a push shot when they push the ball forward with a shaft.

There is magic in the air for some jump shots I see to be legal. Nobody protests them, making it legal to hit or push the cue ball with the side of your shaft. A waste of time arguing any jump shot is illegal, all of the other people making illegal shots with their jump cues will join in proclaiming the shot legal even though they didn't actually see the shot. Even if a legal jump shot is possible, that doesn't mean a particular jump shot was legal. Some have learned a technique that gets the cue ball up in the air and then pushes it forward and they do this every time they jump. They don't know they are fouling and will argue endlessly after every jump. They would whine like a bunch of bitches if I used the side of my stick with the cue ball on the table!

Hu(checking the "bitch" blocker)

 

[sjm]

I see I got quoted a good bit by people on both sides of the jump stick debate. Just one example of my problem with jump cues; I have seen someone insisting he made a legal jump shot with one business card of distance between the balls, edgewise to be clear. The ball goes straight up six or eight inches, then forwards! I can kinda understand how it is possible to get the ball to jump straight up but it will take a lot of explaining for me to believe the highly asymmetrical path the cue ball took after going straight up if it didn't touch the stick. Shot is illegal on two points. Something other than the tip touches the cue ball and it is a push shot when they push the ball forward with a shaft.

There is magic in the air for some jump shots I see to be legal. Nobody protests them, making it legal to hit or push the cue ball with the side of your shaft. A waste of time arguing any jump shot is illegal, all of the other people making illegal shots with their jump cues will join in proclaiming the shot legal even though they didn't actually see the shot. Even if a legal jump shot is possible, that doesn't mean a particular jump shot was legal. Some have learned a technique that gets the cue ball up in the air and then pushes it forward and they do this every time they jump. They don't know they are fouling and will argue endlessly after every jump. They would whine like a bunch of bitches if I used the side of my stick with the cue ball on the table!

Hu(checking the "bitch" blocker)

Nearly twenty five years ago, Allen Hopkins made the exact same observation, contending that most jumps were fouls. Sadly, it fell on deaf ears.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I'll end the debate right now. Forget the argument about the short cue. I have no issues with jump cues. Where I take issue is with the tips that are being used. I can take the world's best jump cue, cut off the phenolic or G10 (or insert your favourite synthetic tip here), install an Elkmaster, and you will not be able to jump with anywhere near the level of consistency you could with the brick that was on it previously. I can also take a playing cue, cut off the tip, install a White Diamond or G10, and now that cue is a jumping machine...but you won't be able to play with it very well. When the tip is the only thing that makes the difference in the cue's performance.....THAT is a gimmick, and the equipment is giving you the ability, NOT your skillset. So, my beef with modern jump cues are the synthetic tips. There used to be a distance where jumping was considered impossible, and then there were green light zones. With a phenolic tip, you now need to place a ball within a chalk width of a blocking ball to cut off the jump. Or, put a lot of traffic in the way. But, I have set up trick shots with 14 balls in a line, have jumped over the entire line, and made the ball. That's ridiculous. Make a rule where jump cues need to have leather tips with a durometer rating, and this debate would all but go away. No one would be reaching for their Hanshew with an elkmaster, when the blocker is 5" away, unless they have supreme technique.

 

[erhino41]

Play better safeties.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

 

[sjm]

Fair enough...

Funny though.... Let me edit your comment just a bit and let me know your thoughts...:

"In the modern game, it often equates to a greatly reduced penalty for position poorly played, and that doesn't sit well with me. Up your position play and you won't need the crutch known as the cue extension as often."

Let me ask you. Do you have an issue with cue extensions...?

oh how about this...:

"In the modern game, it may equate to a lessened advantage for safety position poorly played, and that sits well with me. Up your safety play and you won't need to worry about the crutch known as the jump cue as often."

I want to be clear that I'm definitely not attempting to mock your comments. In fact I completely agree with the sentiment. Your wording can be so easily augmented to suit either side of the debate, it was hard not to do so.

I framed my comment as "the other side of the coin" which evidences that I can see both sides on jump cues.

The extension issue is an interesting one. Though some see it a little differently, Irving Crane once told me that the switch to 9 foot tables from 10 foot tables over 60 years ago was, at least in part, to make a player's height less of a factor in the play. Irving, a tall man, felt that he had a greater advantage over most of his opponents on the bigger tables. The cue extension is another step in this direction, so I feel its introduction and growing use is consistent with the thinking of yesteryear.

You have not mocked me. On the contrary, you've made a lot of good points in this debate, which you've conducted thoughtfully, tastefully and respectfully.

 

[The_JV]

I framed my comment as "the other side of the coin" which evidences that I can see both sides on jump cues.

...and I do as well. I just see it more of a skill, dare I say art, then the one sided haters. Getting over a ball is simple, yes. Making more than the most simplistic and controlling the CB afterward is something else.

The extension issue is an interesting one. Though some see it a little differently, Irving Crane once told me that the switch to 9 foot tables from 10 foot tables over 60 years ago was, at least in part, to make a player's height less of a factor in the play. Irving, a tall man, felt that he had a greater advantage over most of his opponents on the bigger tables. The cue extension is another step in this direction, so I feel its introduction and growing use is consistent with the thinking of yesteryear.

Thank you for acknowledging my point on the acceptance of the cue extension. You're the first to do so. Probably because you are one of the few who is actually considering both sides of the discussion. I don't know Irving Crane, but his thoughts sound awfully like Earl's on short cues. Earl had an advantage when jumping with his full cue. He hates the short one because he feels it takes away his advantage. Don't blame him, or Irving for feeling the way they do. However, Earl is the king of the gimmick to gain an advantage. His finger extensions jump to mind.

Play with the rest is a skill all in it's own. Snooker players have it in spades, and I enjoy having that edge over the run of the mill pool player. To be fair, I don't have a problem with cue extensions either. It pushes the bridge hand way back and exacerbates typically bad stroke habits.

You have not mocked me. On the contrary, you've made a lot of good points in this debate, which you've conducted thoughtfully, tastefully and respectfully.

So have you.... Civilized conversation on the pool forum. Go figure

 

[erhino41]

Play better safeties.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

In all seriousness, though, I think jump cues add excitement to rotation. The shots the top players are making with the short cues are thrilling, inventive and still tremendously difficult. Even with the top players a jump is often a sell out. I, like a lot of you, watch a ton of pro pool, I see far more kicking and safety battles than I see easy jump shots continuing runs.


Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

 

[9andout]

I think the best compromise I've seen is NO jump cue when you snooker yourself.
I love that. Makes sense.

 

[The_JV]

I think the best compromise I've seen is NO jump cue when you snooker yourself.
I love that. Makes sense.

Hard to argue against that. However I have intentional played into snookers for patterns that would include easy jumps.

 

[sjm]

Hard to argue against that. However I have intentional played into snookers for patterns that would include easy jumps.

I said the same in post #73. If this "middle ground" were adopted, my objection to the jump cue would disappear completely.

 

[briankenobi]

I got to thinking about this yesterday and a different way to look at it, economics. A decent jump cue can run under a hundred dollars all the way up the cuetec propel, which is I believe is $600 or something in that ball park. Companies make a portion of their money on jump cue sales. I am not privy to what percentage that is. I know I have seen the Marty Carey jump cue be a sponsor of events as well as the Hanshew jump cue. If the jump cue were to go away all together, as some would want, would the economic hit on these companies be enough that they sponsor less events? Now this is just "fantasy booking" because jump cues aren't going away but it was a different way I was thinking about it.

 

[sjm]

I got to thinking about this yesterday and a different way to look at it, economics. A decent jump cue can run under a hundred dollars all the way up the cuetec propel, which is I believe is $600 or something in that ball park. Companies make a portion of their money on jump cue sales. I am not privy to what percentage that is. I know I have seen the Marty Carey jump cue be a sponsor of events as well as the Hanshew jump cue. If the jump cue were to go away all together, as some would want, would the economic hit on these companies be enough that they sponsor less events? Now this is just "fantasy booking" because jump cues aren't going away but it was a different way I was thinking about it.

Certainly a reasonable question, but one can similarly ask "if every player will need to own a jump cue to be competitive at pool, will this increase the cost of playing pool to the extent that fewer prospective players will be attracted to our game due to the financial commitment required?" If the answer is yes, the cue companies will be among those who suffer. The economics can cut more than one way.

FYI, I agree that jump cues aren't going away. What piece of sporting equipment in any sport has been banned after being first being allowed for twenty five years and in which virtually every professional has invested money.

 

[David in FL]

FYI, I agree that jump cues aren't going away. What piece of sporting equipment in any sport has been banned after being first being allowed for twenty five years and in which virtually every professional has invested money.

Plenty of examples in golf...

But yeah, they’re here to stay.

 

[sjm]

Plenty of examples in golf...

But yeah, they’re here to stay.

Thanks for the info. Would formerly permitted grooves (such as square grooves) in one's irons be an example?

 

[David in FL]

Thanks for the info. Would formerly permitted grooves (such as square grooves) in one's irons be an example?

Yep, a good example.

Also the ban on the long putter, limitations on the coefficient of restitution (springiness of the face) of various clubs, and even changes in the size and characteristics of the golf ball itself. There are a bunch of them.

Please don’t take away my jump cue though!

 

[sjm]

Please don’t take away my jump cue though!

LOL, your wish is granted.

 

[garczar]

Yep, a good example.

Also the ban on the long putter, limitations on the coefficient of restitution (springiness of the face) of various clubs, and even changes in the size and characteristics of the golf ball itself. There are a bunch of them.

Please don’t take away my jump cue though!

Long putter wasn't banned, just the method of its use. Putter can not touch one's body above the elbows. As for the shorty's?? Well, the best player i've ever seen, The GOAT, never used one and he whipped the worlds' ass for years. IMO kicking is not only a more elegant option but its also easier on the table. I do kinda like the idea of not being able to use one if you hook yourself.

 

[orion21]

I think 2 cues should be the rule. If your break cue breaks down or your player breaks own fine, but to have a purpose built cue for every shot is too much just imo.