Shoulder Screws in Today's Cues

I'm assuming the question is about shoulders on the installation side, and not as a pilot to center the pin in the insert, as I have seen a few pins in that style also.

In My limited experience, It seems to be more of ease of installation then anything, the shoulder pins are much easier for me to install, but I have aquired methods to make sure full thread pins go in straight.

On the insert side, pretty much the same thing, except that with the shoulder inserts, I have to pay paticular attention to the little bit of threads that are on the bottom, and make sure I make those threads really tight, or risk the insert backing out later down the road. I found that underdrilling them, and then boring before tapping, helps me get better threads that hold up well, not to mention makes a better bore for alignment purposes.

Go ahead with the smart ass coment My friend, I would expect nothing less, :rolleyes: :D , as I know this probably does'nt answer the question asked, but the truth is I have'nt had a pin bend yet. Guess more time will provide those answers to Me in the future. I have rarely seen a stainless pin bend that bad though, but in the 5/16 diameter atleast, I know that It can happen. I buy 3 or 4 ft lenths Of 5/16-18 threaded rods to make pins from ocasionally, and the full lenths are not true, so I have to watch what part of the rod I cut My pins from to make sure I don't get one with the bad spot in It.

As far as precision, well they definatly seem to be more precise IMO, but not sure if that's not just due to the easier install, or in fact they really are.

I do like to modify My full threaded pins with center holes, and that aids in the installation for me.

I like the shoulders, but the pins are alot more money, and I aggree that adds up over time.



Greg
 
Michael Webb said:
That's an interesting philosophy, to bad it had nothing to do with the question.
I suppose Gina cues, Joss, Black Boar, Paul Mottey, Paul Fanelli, Skip Weston, Myself, Bill Webb, Tad, Ernie Martinez, Southwest, Richard Black, James White, Blud, Paul Dayton, Joel Hercek and I could think of atleast a dozen more offer different pins at the joint because they don't know anything about building precision cues.
Sorry, just a smart ass answer to go along with your post.
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You should go back and read your original post.

If you want to throw out names try this one: Bill Stroud - Joss West Cues.
And I happen to know that many of the cuemakers you listed also use the Radial pin. Blud uses his own pin. Southwest uses their own pin. Arnot uses the Radial pin exclusively.

Some cuemakers use an Acme style thread which is flat across the top of the threads and much easier to locate on than standard single point 60 degree threads.
 
Michael Webb said:
A little info for those who don't know, the first Radials I ever bought from Uni Loc had no solid shank as part of the design and they were perfect.
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I've seen that pin. I removed a bent one once, and was amazed to see it was threaded all the way down. I've always wanted to purchase some like that...but can only find the current type. I agree with you Michael, I'd rather have my pins threaded all the way instead of just a few threads under the barrel holding it. Thats why "most" of my cues are 3/8-10...threaded to the end!!!;)
 
Michael Webb said:
Do you mean the mandrel or just the female for turning butts to work on them. I made the I.D. of mine out of phenolic, never had any problems. Metal to metal has a concern, if it ever seizes, you'll go through hell trying to release it and there's still a chance you would ruin the pin if you did get it apart.
I know of certain cue makers that have their carbide mandrels with all metal bodies because they use a pole sander but their is still a concern.
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Just the female for working on butts (sanding, wraps, etc). I just don't like clamping onto a screw that's already been polished.
I made the I.D. of mine out of phenolic
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I finally broke down and did the same. I bought the maintenance set, but wasn't too happy since it showed all metal on the web site, then it arrives being half plastic or (?). Life goes on though :) Boy am I glad too!!!
 
Michael Webb said:
PHASE II, to this scenario.
Does your "A" joint have a shoulder screw, "IF NOT", WHY NOT if you beleive in the precision of the shoulder so much.
I am not trying to pick arguments, this is actually good stuff for this forum.
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No, because imo you need a little play there and that the faces of the forearm and the handle when mated make them line perfectly.
Just like a 3/8 10 or 5/16 14 screws have a little play but doesn't matter when the shaft's and the forearm's face mate.
Btw, radial pins now come with barrels with 3 rings in it plus the glue channel and have 5/16 14 bottom threads from TNS.
I like the shouldered radials.
OT but I once saw a local maker put on a 3/8 10 pin then center holed the pin after it was installed b/c he knew it was off and he was going to turn using that new center hole. YIKES!
 
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Arnot Wadsworth said:
You should go back and read your original post.

If you want to throw out names try this one: Bill Stroud - Joss West Cues.
And I happen to know that many of the cuemakers you listed also use the Radial pin. Blud uses his own pin. Southwest uses their own pin. Arnot uses the Radial pin exclusively.

Some cuemakers use an Acme style thread which is flat across the top of the threads and much easier to locate on than standard single point 60 degree threads.
Click to expand...

Arnot
For some reason you are offended by this post why
I HAVE NO IDEA!
I haven't offended anyone in starting this post so PLEASE! try and get something out of this or IGNORE IT!

I will make sure that in the future I don't start any more post.
 
Michael Webb said:
Arnot
For some reason you are offended by this post why
I HAVE NO IDEA!
I haven't offended anyone in starting this post so PLEASE! try and get something out of this or IGNORE IT!

I will make sure that in the future I don't start any more post.
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I was not offended by your post.

You will find that very few cuemakers build a cue the same way. We all feel stongly about the way we build a cue or else we should not be doing what we do.

If you like using full threaded pins then keep doing it.

I like using Radial pins and I will keep doing it.

As to starting more post you should have learned by now that everytime you open yourself up to this forum you are asking for other opinions. Some are valid some are not but we all learn to examine our own ways of doing things by listening to others.

I hope you continue posting because I value your input and friendship.

Good cuemaking,
 
The screw that was in the cue I started the post about was a RADIAL. EVERY RADIAL SCREW I HAVE DONE FOR THAT LAST TWO TEARS HAS BEEN THREADED ALL THE WAY AND THEY GO IN PERFECTLY STRAIGHT EVERY SINGLE TIME.
My point was not to say what is right or wrong, It was to make people think, That's what part of this forum is about,
It was not to challenge peoples insecurities.
 
JoeyInCali said:
OT but I once saw a local maker put on a 3/8 10 pin then center holed the pin after it was installed b/c he knew it was off and he was going to turn using that new center hole. YIKES!
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Ouch, that's one good thing the mini import lathe I thought I wasted money on works good for. I can modify the pins just about anyway I want with it, and if the pin is off then I know, and toss It in the trash. The only thing I really use the centers I drill in them for is to help hold the full threaded pin perfectly aligned while the glue dries, so I don't have to cut the cue off the pin later If It's a tad off. Sometimes I can screw the pin in dry, and It runs true, but when I glue It up, It sometimes shows a slight bit of runnout. My bore and threads are tight, and I try not to bottom out the pin, so have no idea why the movement unless the glue or the way I apply It, but this solves the problem for me. I did make a center to fit the bullnose on a premade pin also, but found that the center hole in the pin was more acurate in My situation.
If there are many inlays, v-points, or the type of ringwork I have been making, It will throw some of those all out of line. Movement in the middle of the cue can bring up the same issues, so I've decided to indicate that when when glueing it up. I also like to face after each ring being glued when possible or worth while. I just have to find the best ways to walk around these issues at the time until I have more dedicated equipment that I can afford to keep tied up all the time. It Takes alot longer, but saves me from ruining everything My hands touch:rolleyes: :p :D

The shoulder pins I have no problems with, and don't need the center, I've also had no breakdowns yet with them, and the small area of threads on the bottom, but some of the same style female inserts do concern me alittle more, and the threads can be finer then the pins. I would like to see those in a coarser thread If It was possible.

Greg C
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
In my opinion I believe most cuemakers use full threaded pins because they are cheap!

From Atlas one 5/16-18 fully theaded pin cost $1.75 each. One Radial Pin cost $15.40 each.

If you are building 100 cues it cost $175.00 to put in the pins with the 5/16-18. With the Radial Pin it cost $1540.00.

You get what you pay for. Radial pins are straight, precise and accurate.

Nothing straight, precise or accurate about full threaded pins.

You get what you pay for.
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Arnot, just an FYI for everyone from North America that has cues that end up in other countries including Japan. Most cues that I had to fix the shaft's recieving cavity are the 3/8"x7.25 tpi radials as they are the ones with the chunkest wood threads. The wood swell up and get real tight, Nelsonite or not. That is the reason why most of what I send to Japan are with the brass inserts or 3/8x10 or 3/8x9tpi radial.
 
bandido said:
Arnot, just an FYI for everyone from North America that has cues that end up in other countries including Japan. Most cues that I had to fix the shaft's recieving cavity are the 3/8"x7.25 tpi radials as they are the ones with the chunkest wood threads. The wood swell up and get real tight, Nelsonite or not. That is the reason why most of what I send to Japan are with the brass inserts or 3/8x10 or 3/8x9tpi radial.
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OK, one more reason to use phenolic insert.:eek:
Would wax in there help?
 
Screw it?

Michael,

I must agree! I do NOT like pins that are not threaded all the way. I don't have any problems getting fully threaded pins in straight...in fact it's EASIER. Shouldered screws also are a pain to use in that I have to change the way I normally assemble the joint. I still don't trust using a sleeved ivory joint, and I'm not sure of any other way to install one on a cue with a shouldered screw. What are your opinions on sleeved ivory over phenolic or steel or has that issue been addressed previously?

Jim
 
Great Thread

IMO ,my pin has the best of both worlds. I have a pin similar to the new Radial, or Uniloc style pin. It has a shoulder which I use for alignment with the hole I initially bored, and then thread at the bottom of the pin which threads and holds the pin in place. These threads in the bottom of the bored hole has clearance so it does not guide the pin, just holds it in the cue. The shaft side bore also rides on the bore of the hole, not the threads. With this said, I think the new Radials would be more accurate in the cue, and a lot easier for the novice in cuemaking to apply.

Just some more information about applying the pin, I have seen how a very well known cuemaker takes a fully threaded pin and actually drills and bores a hole in the butt of a cue to the OD (outside diameter) of the pin and press fits it in the cue. No threading at all. Early on, I did this also, and never had a failure that I knew of.

I have designed a pin to my specs. and they cost $6 each. If you have a pin you are paying $12-$15 and you are serious about cuemaking, you better be shopping around.

Not sure if I have the right answers, but I am convinced...

Here is a pic of my pin:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/billiardbum/Newjointpinchoice.jpg
 
shouldered pins...

That's interesting that the first Radials were not shouldered, or as I have also heard them called "self-aligning." I believe that the UniLoc weight bolts are still made that way....

I researched and tested lots of joint materials a while ago and found that the rolled pins are just not as straight as the single pointed pins.

Looking at the cut of the UniLoc, I would assume that are also cut with the single point method.

I spoke to John Jr. at Connecticut Cue Parts a while ago and he thought the same thing, and said that if he did that for his pins, they would be about 4-5 times the price.

As for the self-centering (aligning) sleeve/shoulder ......when a pin is inserted into an tapped hole, there is a lot of slop in there and you can wiggle the pin just a little bit inside the hole (no really, go try it....) Is it really going straight in or does it end up on a slight angle???? after all the threads are cut on an angle right???....one would have to assume that pin gets kicked off to one side at least slightly unless there is something to prevent that from happening....the shoulder??? Seems to make sense....

Mike

P.S. I do not use a self-centering pin at the A joint but there is also glue used there...maybe your right???

I do know this...the self aligning pins are considerably heavier than the fully threaded...lots of extra material in there.....
 
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I question my methods all the time, If any of you have wondered even a little, then this thread has served a purpose. If not, then I apologize for waisting your time.
 
Pancerny said:
As for the self-centering (aligning) sleeve/shoulder ......when a pin is inserted into an tapped hole, there is a lot of slop in there and you can wiggle the pin just a little bit inside the hole (no really, go try it....) Is it really going straight in or does it end up on a slight angle???? after all the threads are cut on an angle right???....one would have to assume that pin gets kicked off to one side at least slightly unless there is something to prevent that from happening....the shoulder??? Seems to make sense....
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Another thing to consider, is that most of the taps for the fully threaded pins have no follower on them. What that means is that the tap can actually wander off-center pretty easily due to grain, etc. If your tapped hole is not straight, no amount of beating or center drilling is going to make it sit in there straight.
I think this is why some people actually make the hole the same size as the OD of the thread and jam the pin in there with no threads in the forearm.
You can grind threads in shafts, to get them dead nuts, but it's pretty hard to find tools that small that are long enough to grind the threads in the butt.
 
Sheldon said:
Another thing to consider, is that most of the taps for the fully threaded pins have no follower on them. What that means is that the tap can actually wander off-center pretty easily due to grain, etc. If your tapped hole is not straight, no amount of beating or center drilling is going to make it sit in there straight.
I think this is why some people actually make the hole the same size as the OD of the thread and jam the pin in there with no threads in the forearm.
You can grind threads in shafts, to get them dead nuts, but it's pretty hard to find tools that small that are long enough to grind the threads in the butt.
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Tap, tap, tap.
A bored cavity for the shoulder is pretty darn dead-on imo.
I bore it out 1 thou under the shoulder's od.
 
I have a few different taps, Ones with leads and ones that are ground so I can bottom out. But you do make a good point for those that may not be able to drill a straight hole.

I could start a thread by itself just on the amount of taps and dyes I have.
 
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I have deep respect for a nearby cue-builder who uses live tooling to cut all of the female threads for his pins. In my mind, this is a huge advantage over tapping, but it can be really tricky in those smaller holes. Just a little fuel for the discussion fire.
 
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