Side pocket breaks - Lipsky, Barouty?

[Dan White]

Hi guys. I haven't posted much until lately - trying to spend time on the table. I've seen Steve and Danny play quite a bit at local tourneys and wonder if either cares to comment (or anybody else, for that matter).

I've been trying to make more use of breaking into the side pocket. To be clear, the break ball is near the top of the rack and the cue ball is somewhere around the second diamond (or a little higher) between the rack and the side rail. I seem to get pretty good breaks this way, and it just opens up so many more potential break balls. I think I read about them in Cranfield's book if I recall correctly. Greenleaf supposedly preferred this break shot, which should be hit with draw to bring the cue ball back to the side rail and out.

Are side pockets usually too tight in pro competitions to consider them? I rarely see them played intentionally.

 

[bubbashooter]

I would also like to know about "side pocket breaks". I seam to do better with them (i'm very knew to the sport of pool). But what are the reasons you don't see more pros going for that shot?

 

[3andstop]

IMO, and I'm surely no pro side pocket break shots are among the least favorable. At certain angles even if you hit the pocket well, the pocket likes to spit balls out.

Sometimes if you overshoot an angle to get proper position on your keyball, the only option is to roll past the break ball into a position for a side pocket break like the one you are talking about. In these situations, I opt for a big angle where I can cut the break ball much thinner to the side at a slower speed to insure the pocket accepts the shot and still get into the balls.

Other type break shots in the side pocket like ones where the OB is hanging in the pocket and you have the option of leaving the CB in the rack area after shooting your keyball. Taking BIH behind the headstring and shooting the hanger, using strong draw on the CB will prevent it from scratching in the corner.

On shots where I have to go two rails behind the rack to break the balls, I opt for some extra running english, really spinning the CB so that after it glances the back of the rack and it goes to the long rail, it has enough spin to come out toward the center of the table.

Not the best breakshots, but workable for sure.

 

[Blackjack]

I have always liked this break shot by Pat Howey -

Pat Howey: Side Pocket Break Shot
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[Steve Lipsky]

It's strange; I've always found side pocket break shots to be very effective, with little chance of scratching. And by the same token, I don't play for them that much.

I think the main reason is that one of the most important things I look for in break shots are margins of error in attaining position on them. It's why I don't like high break shots (though I'm gradually changing my thoughts on these) and it's why I very much like break shots behind the rack. Even though, technically, behind the rack break shots have a small surface area on which to attain position, their proximity to two rails (and lots of nearby options as key balls) make them stars for me. If you calculate just how much of a zone you have, from the time you enter break position to the time you leave break position (sometimes encompassing both of those rails along the way), I think it's gigantic.

So what's wrong with the side pocket break? Though it does have the benefit of achieving position near a rail, there are two big problems I see. The first is that, while the rail can help judge position, it's usually death if you land directly on the rail. (Note that for behind the rack positions, if you're on a rail it's usually the short rail, which barely hinders you in your attempts to break the rack.) Due to the diagonal nature of the side of the rack you're hitting for a side pocket shot, you'll often want to adjust the impact site with some top or bottom - not easy to do when you're very close to the rail.

The second problem is that I find the positional zone to be smaller, in general, for these break shots. As little as an inch in either direction from the ideal can very easily make the rack impossible to hit.

I haven't seen too many balls spit out of the side pockets on these breaks, and I usually hit these with a decent amount of force. I don't think the possibility of the spit-out would play very much of a role in my decision to play or not play one of these shots. I do find with these shots, unless I'm laying perfectly, I have to play them with more speed on average than the other two standard break types.

- Steve

 

[Dan White]

Thanks for the various replies. I tend to overlook bottom of the rack break balls, probably because my cue ball tends to end up coming off the side rail and back into the pack, or somewhere unfavorable. Maybe I just need to practice these shots more. Steve's point about large positions zones and an abundance of key balls is a good one.

My original thought was that manufacturing a break ball is just one more thing you have to mess with before you can breathe easy and figure out a good ending pattern. The "distraction" of manufacturing the break ball can easily screw up a rack. It seemed to me if I have an ideal ball for a side pocket break, and a good key ball, then I'll stop trying to make that perfect side pocket break ball. Also, I haven't had much trouble with the pocket spitting the ball out of a side pocket. Either I hit a point and miss, or it goes in.

 

[Ron F]

Behind The Rack Break Shots

Dan,

If you're having trouble with the cue ball going back into the stack after executing a behind the rack break shot, get your hands on Grady Mathews' DVD Break Shots and Key Balls. A synopsis of what you'll learn from this DVD regarding behind the rack break shots:

If the break ball is past the middle diamond and closer to the pocket you will be shooting it into - use high outside english. The high will throw the cue ball toward the rail and the outside will send it toward the middle of the table after contacting the cushion.

If the break ball is on the other side of the middle diamond - further away from the pocket you'll be shooting it into - use inside english. In this case the cue ball will come off the rack, hit the side rail, the inside spin will send it into the back rail, then into the side rail closest to you, and then out toward the middle of the table.

If you're watching Accu-Stats DVD's or 14.1 matches online, pay attention to the english that is put on behind the rack break shots and what the CB does after contacting the pile.

Hope this helps.

Ron F

 

[Ron F]

Side Pocket Break Shots

It's strange; I've always found side pocket break shots to be very effective, with little chance of scratching. And by the same token, I don't play for them that much.

I think the main reason is that one of the most important things I look for in break shots are margins of error in attaining position on them. It's why I don't like high break shots (though I'm gradually changing my thoughts on these) and it's why I very much like break shots behind the rack. Even though, technically, behind the rack break shots have a small surface area on which to attain position, their proximity to two rails (and lots of nearby options as key balls) make them stars for me. If you calculate just how much of a zone you have, from the time you enter break position to the time you leave break position (sometimes encompassing both of those rails along the way), I think it's gigantic.

So what's wrong with the side pocket break? Though it does have the benefit of achieving position near a rail, there are two big problems I see. The first is that, while the rail can help judge position, it's usually death if you land directly on the rail. (Note that for behind the rack positions, if you're on a rail it's usually the short rail, which barely hinders you in your attempts to break the rack.) Due to the diagonal nature of the side of the rack you're hitting for a side pocket shot, you'll often want to adjust the impact site with some top or bottom - not easy to do when you're very close to the rail.

The second problem is that I find the positional zone to be smaller, in general, for these break shots. As little as an inch in either direction from the ideal can very easily make the rack impossible to hit.

I haven't seen too many balls spit out of the side pockets on these breaks, and I usually hit these with a decent amount of force. I don't think the possibility of the spit-out would play very much of a role in my decision to play or not play one of these shots. I do find with these shots, unless I'm laying perfectly, I have to play them with more speed on average than the other two standard break types.

- Steve

Fantastic post Steve! I was mainly of the opinion that the position area for a side pocket break shot is measured in square inches while the position area for a conventional side of the rack break shot is measured in square feet - giving you much more room for error.

But you pointed out the difficulties that arise when the CB lands ON the rail which is a whole other unpleasant can of worms that has to be considered as well.

If a break ball is where it needs to be and a key ball offering a stop shot to get to the break ball is available, I'll go for it. If not, I won't try to roll or draw the CB into position for it. It's too low percentage. Unless, of course, it's the only option.

Thanks for a great post!
Ron F

 

[TSW]

It's strange; I've always found side pocket break shots to be very effective, with little chance of scratching. And by the same token, I don't play for them that much.

I think the main reason is that one of the most important things I look for in break shots are margins of error in attaining position on them. It's why I don't like high break shots (though I'm gradually changing my thoughts on these) and it's why I very much like break shots behind the rack. Even though, technically, behind the rack break shots have a small surface area on which to attain position, their proximity to two rails (and lots of nearby options as key balls) make them stars for me. If you calculate just how much of a zone you have, from the time you enter break position to the time you leave break position (sometimes encompassing both of those rails along the way), I think it's gigantic.

So what's wrong with the side pocket break? Though it does have the benefit of achieving position near a rail, there are two big problems I see. The first is that, while the rail can help judge position, it's usually death if you land directly on the rail. (Note that for behind the rack positions, if you're on a rail it's usually the short rail, which barely hinders you in your attempts to break the rack.) Due to the diagonal nature of the side of the rack you're hitting for a side pocket shot, you'll often want to adjust the impact site with some top or bottom - not easy to do when you're very close to the rail.

The second problem is that I find the positional zone to be smaller, in general, for these break shots. As little as an inch in either direction from the ideal can very easily make the rack impossible to hit.

I haven't seen too many balls spit out of the side pockets on these breaks, and I usually hit these with a decent amount of force. I don't think the possibility of the spit-out would play very much of a role in my decision to play or not play one of these shots. I do find with these shots, unless I'm laying perfectly, I have to play them with more speed on average than the other two standard break types.

- Steve

This is why I love this forum. One of the best posts I've seen in a long time. Thanks for the wisdom, Steve.

 

[Dan White]

Dan,

If you're having trouble with the cue ball going back into the stack after executing a behind the rack break shot, get your hands on Grady Mathews' DVD Break Shots and Key Balls.

Hope this helps.

Ron F

Thanks for the thoughts, but I do have that tape (and I bought it when everything was on VCR tapes)! I think I usually didn't use enough english to get the cue ball up table instead of into the rack after contacting the side rail. You just have to use a lot of english.

 

[Dan White]

This is why I love this forum. One of the best posts I've seen in a long time. Thanks for the wisdom, Steve.

He's always good for a little nugget here and there, so I'm sure to ask him something when I see him posting in a forum. I asked about side pocket breaks, and I think the net result will be me paying more attention to behind the rack breaks. Thanks again, Steve!