Sigel's Perfect Pool Tapes

N

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In his "Perfect Pool" Instructional Series, Sigel makes 2 comments:

1. Play all cut shots with one tip of outside english.

Isn't this short-sighted for teaching cue ball control? I was taught to start out with no english until I got the hang of where the cue ball was going and then learn english for cue ball control. While it does help to use outside english, it isn't very often that this works with your cb control strategy for the shot.

2. OB can not be "thrown" in, there is no such thing as "throw".

This is quite a statement for a pro to make. First of all, if this was true, then there should be no reason to compensate for throw by using outside english on cut shots. Second, I love to "throw" balls in if I can't see all of the ob or need to stay for postion. I do it all of the time.

Do these statements surprise anyone else? Why would someone teach this drivel? Put a straight-in, relatively short shot on the table, and hit dead in to the ball with english, and tell me there is not throw. In the tapes, Kevin says you can get lessons from Sigel for $3000 to $5000 per day. I think Sigel should get some lessons from Byrne before he charges people for lessons himself.
 
Take into considerations these tapes are "old" relatively, and I think directed towards the novice player.

I think a lot of the "use no english" theory was derived from the old school players when clay balls were used. Taking into consideration the "skids" that are prevalent with plastic balls, using a little outside on "most" shots is not bad policy. Obviously this will only get you so far until you start learning advanced position play...

Gerry
 
ndakotan said:
In his "Perfect Pool" Instructional Series, Sigel makes 2 comments:

1. Play all cut shots with one tip of outside english.

Isn't this short-sighted for teaching cue ball control? I was taught to start out with no english until I got the hang of where the cue ball was going and then learn english for cue ball control. While it does help to use outside english, it isn't very often that this works with your cb control strategy for the shot.

2. OB can not be "thrown" in, there is no such thing as "throw".

This is quite a statement for a pro to make. First of all, if this was true, then there should be no reason to compensate for throw by using outside english on cut shots. Second, I love to "throw" balls in if I can't see all of the ob or need to stay for postion. I do it all of the time.

Do these statements surprise anyone else? Why would someone teach this drivel? Put a straight-in, relatively short shot on the table, and hit dead in to the ball with english, and tell me there is not throw. In the tapes, Kevin says you can get lessons from Sigel for $3000 to $5000 per day. I think Sigel should get some lessons from Byrne before he charges people for lessons himself.
Click to expand...

As the previous poster said, with plastic balls, a touch of outside english does seem limit skidding. Obviously, one can't always use outside.

In any case, if you watch Sigel, and most other pros, you will see they do use a bit of outside as rule. I think one tip is a lot, but they do use a touch.
 
on the contrary...

Gerry said:
I think a lot of the "use no english" theory was derived from the old school players when clay balls were used. Taking into consideration the "skids" that are prevalent with plastic balls, using a little outside on "most" shots is not bad policy. Obviously this will only get you so far until you start learning advanced position play...

Gerry
Click to expand...

Gerry...I would have to disagree with your first statement. As an instructor, I find that most players do not understand the concept of what happens to the CB using high, center, and low, with zero sidespin (top and bottom spin cause the CB to curve, NOT english). They automatically add right or left spin, without knowing why, or even IF they actually need it. IMO, someone wishing to become an advanced player, should first learn, and be confidant with, moving the CB accurately and consistently, without sidespin. Then add in english, when you know you can't get where you want, without it. There are some shots where sidespin is necessary to pocket the OB, but not that often. Most english is used (or should be) for position play on the CB. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
cue ball curve?

Scott Lee said:
Gerry...I would have to disagree with your first statement. As an instructor, I find that most players do not understand the concept of what happens to the CB using high, center, and low, with zero sidespin (top and bottom spin cause the CB to curve, NOT english). They automatically add right or left spin, without knowing why, or even IF they actually need it. IMO, someone wishing to become an advanced player, should first learn, and be confidant with, moving the CB accurately and consistently, without sidespin. Then add in english, when you know you can't get where you want, without it. There are some shots where sidespin is necessary to pocket the OB, but not that often. Most english is used (or should be) for position play on the CB. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Did you say that sidespin does NOT cause the CB to curve,
but follow and draw does?

just checking

Dale
 
I"m not going to argue with you Scott on those points. I just figured coming from a beginner POV, keeping things simple would be the best bet...

Gerry
 
ndakotan said:
In his "Perfect Pool" Instructional Series, Sigel makes 2 comments:

1. Play all cut shots with one tip of outside english.

Isn't this short-sighted for teaching cue ball control? I was taught to start out with no english until I got the hang of where the cue ball was going and then learn english for cue ball control. While it does help to use outside english, it isn't very often that this works with your cb control strategy for the shot.

2. OB can not be "thrown" in, there is no such thing as "throw".

This is quite a statement for a pro to make. First of all, if this was true, then there should be no reason to compensate for throw by using outside english on cut shots. Second, I love to "throw" balls in if I can't see all of the ob or need to stay for postion. I do it all of the time.

Do these statements surprise anyone else? Why would someone teach this drivel? Put a straight-in, relatively short shot on the table, and hit dead in to the ball with english, and tell me there is not throw. In the tapes, Kevin says you can get lessons from Sigel for $3000 to $5000 per day. I think Sigel should get some lessons from Byrne before he charges people for lessons himself.
Click to expand...

Other than the above two things you disagree with ,is there any good useful information on his tapes? I've heard others say they are well done and very good?
RJ
 
pdcue said:
Did you say that sidespin does NOT cause the CB to curve,
but follow and draw does?

just checking

Dale
Click to expand...

Dale...That is correct. Topspin causes the CB to curve across the tangent line, and draw causes it to curve away from the tangent line. Sidespin, by itself, will not cause the CB to curve, unless topspin or draw are added to the english. This is misunderstood by MANY players, of all abilities! This also assumes a reasonably level cue, as elevating the cue creates a masse' effect, which will cause some CB curve.:D

Here's a great test: put the OB on the footspot, and the CB a foot or two away, creating any angle (just off straight in is most easy to pocket the OB and notice the effect on the CB). Shoot the shot with center ball and no sidespin. The CB should scratch in the side. Shoot the shot again, this time also center, but with either inside or outside spin. The CB will travel down the same tangent line, spinning like a top, but with no deviation from the line...and still scratching in the side. If the CB goes somewhere different, you're accidentally adding top or bottom spin to the shot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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DVD's are not old, they are IPT

Gerry said:
Take into considerations these tapes are "old" relatively, and I think directed towards the novice player.
Click to expand...


These dvd's are not old, they were produced with the IPT and KT is right along for the ride interupting Sigel. These tapes are the ones they are currently advertising
 
recoveryjones said:
Other than the above two things you disagree with ,is there any good useful information on his tapes? I've heard others say they are well done and very good?
RJ
Click to expand...


They are very novice, starting on DVD with how to hold a cue and easy drills. I haven't gotten to disc 3 yet, but even disc 2 is pretty basic. I haven't gotten any new knowledge that Byrne or the others haven't shared.

KT is interjecting useless info all of the time for novices and it gets old if you know how to hold a cue. It is like KT is giving the lessons with sigel's help, not the other way around.

They also do not explain how a ball looses draw, a 4-foot draw shot is hit the same way as a 1 foot draw shot.

One other point sigel made:

All draw shots are the same amount of draw with different stroke speed.

Does anyone else agree with this, I use more or less draw varied with the speed of the stroke to get more or less draw.

I find the tapes simplistic and very novice orientated.
 
Ok heres the thing. No one can question Mikes abilities or accomplishments........ but the man cannot teach. Thats not his bag of knowledge.
He is a classic example of the old phrase "those who can do, those who cant teach"
Guys like Bob Byrne and Grady Mathews are the exception. They are very good players who seem to be able to transmit knowledge to a student.
Chuck
 
I took for granted you were talking about the series he did back in the late 80's/early 90's.....I had no clue Mike did another series.

Gerry
 
RiverCity said:
Guys like Bob Byrne and Grady Mathews are the exception. They are very good players who seem to be able to transmit knowledge to a student.
Chuck
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Chuck...Just f.y.i., Bob Byrne does not play pool at all. He plays 3-c billiards only. However, his books and videos are terrific teaching tools. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
I meant that he has skill, knowledge and talent and has the ability to teach, I never said he was a great pocket billiard player. :cool:
Chuck
 
I understand what you meant...

Chuck...I know you meant well...and Grady is indeed a good teacher, as well as an expert player. Bob Byrne falls into the same catagory as Phil Capelle...expert authors with no real teaching experience. Both were formerly listed as BCA Instructors, but did not teach, and no longer are active in the program. Neither gives lessons... Not trying to dis you, as much as set the record straight. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
....Here's a great test: put the OB on the footspot, and the CB a foot or two away, creating any angle (just off straight in is most easy to pocket the OB and notice the effect on the CB). Shoot the shot with center ball and no sidespin. The CB should scratch in the side. Shoot the shot again, this time also center, but with either inside or outside spin. The CB will travel down the same tangent line, spinning like a top, but with no deviation from the line...and still scratching in the side. If the CB goes somewhere different, you're accidentally adding top or bottom spin to the shot...
Click to expand...
Actually, at very mild cut angles and with balls well-matched in weight, you have to have some draw on the cueball in order to get it to scratch in the side. At these angles, around 10 degrees or less, the cueball will move forward of the tangent line enough to make a scratch very unlikely.

Jim
 
Jal said:
Actually, at very mild cut angles and with balls well-matched in weight, you have to have some draw on the cueball in order to get it to scratch in the side. At these angles, around 10 degrees or less, the cueball will move forward of the tangent line enough to make a scratch very unlikely.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim...We'll have to agree to disagree. Even at a small angle of 10 degrees, if the CB slides into the OB regardless of sidespin, it will bounce off, or deflect on a 90 degree tangent line, causing it to scratch in the side pocket. The only way this will not happen, is if the CB has forward roll when it makes contact with the OB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Jim...We'll have to agree to disagree. Even at a small angle of 10 degrees, if the CB slides into the OB regardless of sidespin, it will bounce off, or deflect on a 90 degree tangent line, causing it to scratch in the side pocket. The only way this will not happen, is if the CB has forward roll when it makes contact with the OB.
Click to expand...
Scott, this is the common understanding and I've said it more than a few times myself. But I'm beginning to appreciate the effect of the inelasticity between the balls a little better.

According to my numbers, the cueball should move forward of the tangent line by about 8 degrees on a 10 degree cut shot, if it has no draw or follow. This may be a conservative estimate since the value for the coefficient of restituition which I used, .95, may be high according to data supplied by Cushioncrawler (CCB). At any rate, 8 degrees should be more than enough to miss the pocket even allowing for the fact that the cueball starts off a ball's width in back of the line running from the foot spot to the side pocket.

To take an extreme example of how far off the tangent line the cueball can move, on a 2 degree cut angle the corresponding number is 36 degrees, and for a 1/2 degree cut it's about 70 degrees, although of course it won't travel far in either case. At larger cut angles, the tangent line becomes a more reliable pointer.

These numbers are a bit fanciful because you have to know the coefficient of restitution to a fairly high degree of accuracy, and which varies with shot speed (decreases with increasing speed according to Cushioncrawler's measurements). Also, a weight difference adds its own effects. So at small cut angles, it's hard to know just what the cueball's direction will be from a physics point of view, unless you've measured the variables. From a practical point of view, though, a little tweaking with draw or follow compensates for these things.

That's my understanding, anyway.

Jim
 
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