Sighting ... which method do you think is best?

[ShootingArts]

sighting and aiming

Sighting is the method you use to aim. Aiming is how you direct the shot. My take on things anyway.

Having said that, let me swat a hornet's nest with a large stick. Contact point to contact point is the only true way to sight and pocket balls. Everything else is based on mental compensations in a 3D world.

Hu

 

[Misha]

Having said that, let me swat a hornet's nest with a large stick. Contact point to contact point is the only true way to sight and pocket balls. Everything else is based on mental compensations in a 3D world.

Hu

If you mean that what you interpolate as the contact points, based on your brain's ability to compensate for all the factors involved (even if subconsciously), then I agree 100%.

 

[duckie]

Sighting is the method you use to aim. Aiming is how you direct the shot. My take on things anyway.

Having said that, let me swat a hornet's nest with a large stick. Contact point to contact point is the only true way to sight and pocket balls. Everything else is based on mental compensations in a 3D world.

Hu

Maybe for you , but not for everybody. It all depends on how you see things.

I've never considered the CP on the cue ball. I use the CP on the oject ball as a point where I mentally draw a straight line from a point in the center of the pocket to a point on the table that is 1/2 ball past the CP on the object ball. I then try to put the base of the cue ball at the point that is 1/2 ball from the object which is online with the CP to pocket line. Once I know the spot, I never think about the object ball CP, just the point on the table that is 1/2 ball from the edge of the object ball. This the Arrow system by Babe Cranfield.

By having a point that is off of the object ball helps me keep my eyes looking straight and not moving off line between the object ball and where the cue ball needs to be.

 

[dr_dave]

Later, he said one thing about the ghost ball method (the term now used). He said that doing that gives you the wrong spot to aim. By that he meant that the contact point was different than what you think it is because of the sphere geometrics of the balls, how clean they were, how hard the stroke, etc.

I'm not sure what "sphere geometrics" has to do with it, but the amount of throw definitely varies with speed, cut angle, type and amount of spin, ball conditions etc. If you don't adjust your ghost-ball position to take throw into account you will miss some shots (especially the longer ones hit with slow stun).

Anyway, he told me to just shoot the same cut until I couldn't miss, and then do it again. Then a different cut, and so on. And then do it on different size tables, dirty cloth, dirty/new balls, etc.

I think the trial-and-error method is certainly valid if you have lots of time to devote to developing throw intuition. However, I think this process can be easier, faster, and less frustrating if you have an understanding of throw effects (see items 15-25 here).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Contact point to contact point is the only true way to sight and pocket balls. Everything else is based on mental compensations in a 3D world.

... but to aim and sight using the contact-point-to-contact-point method, you have to be able to accurately visualize where the contact points are in the 3D world. Also, if you sight along the CP-to-CP line, and your cue is not along this line (e.g., with a center-ball hit), your view of the line of the cue will be off slightly due to perspective effects in the 3D world.

Aiming is hard ... that's one reason why pool is so damn fun.

Regards,
Dave

 

[duckie]

I'm not sure what "sherical geometrics" has to do with it, but the amount of throw definitely varies with speed, cut angle, type and amount of spin, ball conditions etc. If you don't adjust your ghost-ball position to take throw into account you will miss some shots (especially the longer ones hit with slow stun).

I think the trial-and-error method is certainly valid if you have lots of time to devote to developing throw intuition. However, I think this process can be easier, faster, and less frustrating if you have an understanding of throw effects (see items 15-25 here).

Regards,
Dave

I don't care what system you start with or continue to use, they all require trail and error and lots of table time.

There are no short cuts, however, alot of people seem to believe that this system, that shaft is a short cut.

It takes quality table time. Focused practice sessions and lots of them. You can't but this stuff

 

[pt109]

aiming is understanding

Dave said "everyone", so I'll put in my .02. <you get back change, too>

I can't remember where I heard this, but a long time ago when I had good eyes, I was getting beat up by an old timer. He didn't seem to aim at all. I have no idea how he did it.

Later, he said one thing about the ghost ball method (the term now used). He said that doing that gives you the wrong spot to aim. By that he meant that the contact point was different than what you think it is because of the sphere geometrics of the balls, how clean they were, how hard the stroke, etc.

So, aiming is not much good if you don't have the line, is it?

Anyway, he told me to just shoot the same cut until I couldn't miss, and then do it again. Then a different cut, and so on. And then do it on different size tables, dirty cloth, dirty/new balls, etc.

I never did learn how to "aim." I see the pros do it all the time now in perfect form. From my perspective, I think the perfect stance and stroke is more important, but then again, I"m no master intructor either. :grin:

I'd like some comments on if this line is right, though.....

i like this response best - playing this game is like learning a language - if you don't understand a shot,shoot it till it becomes an old friend - just when you think you know it,the humidity changes and you have to re-aim - there is no security,some training methods will help a novice but at some point you have to lose the training wheels and just BE THERE every shot - you get what you're looking for and if you look for nothing,that's what you get

 

[chevybob20]

I line up the shot while standing using #3. The inside edge of the cue ball with the location of the CB inside edge at the time of collision on the OB. This gives me a consistent head and stick position from the start. Then, as I slide into the shot, my gaze switches to the contact point on the object ball. I chose #3 even though it is not 100% correct.

 

[Misha]

I'm not sure what "sherical geometrics" has to do with it,
Regards,
Dave

I just know that every time you deal with a Doctor, you better have some Sheepskins on the wall, or some solid credentials to be taken seriously:grin:

<I have a few, but not in this field

"The 99 Critical Shots in Pool," Ray Martin and Rosser Reeves. TIMES BOOKS, originally copyright, 1977 and renewed 1993 by Ray Martin. p. 27.

".....Right away, however, we have a problem: If you aim the cue ball directly at this point <contact point> you will never hit it!"


"Here we have aimed right through the cue ball at the point of contact, but as you can see from the dotted circle, we didn't hit it. Because of the curvature of the balls
we hit well to the left of it. We would have missed the pocket!

So obviously, the "point of contact is not the "point of aim."

End Quote.

I'll let the "experts" fight it out......:wink:

 

[dr_dave]

I don't care what system you start with or continue to use, they all require trail and error and lots of table time.

There are no short cuts, however, alot of people seem to believe that this system, that shaft is a short cut.

It takes quality table time. Focused practice sessions and lots of them. You can't but this stuff

Agreed. Excellence requires lots of table time.

However, basic understanding can help some (but not all) people practice and learn more efficiently. For example, if you develop wrong intuition by misinterpreting what you see while practicing certain shots, you might not do as well with similar (or slightly different) shots in the future. Now, with enough practice time, you can overcome any misunderstanding (by correcting and strengthening your intuition), but not everybody has the time or patience to learn this way. For more info, and examples, see bullets 3 and 5-7 here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/mental.html​

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I totally agree. It requires a lot of dedication and hitting a million balls. However, knowing the affects of different variables can be very helpful.

For more on the subject, check this out:
http://www.viktorviktoriashop.com/theshop/images/arexcrop2IMG_1859.jpg

 

[dr_dave]

I totally agree. It requires a lot of dedication and hitting a million balls. However, knowing the affects of different variables can be very helpful.

Are you actually agreeing with me?

... or are you drinking that Hatorade again and just "yanking my chain" or "pulling my leg"?

For more on the subject, check this out:
http://www.viktorviktoriashop.com/theshop/images/arexcrop2IMG_1859.jpg

:grin:

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

the "point of contact is not the "point of aim."

Thanks for the clarification. Now I know what you meant by "sphere geometrics." However, people that aim contact-point-to-contact-point are not aiming their cue at the contact point, they are sighting along the contact points, and the cue is parallel to their line of sight (theoretically anyway ... but the eyes might not see it this way).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Misha]

Thanks for the clarification. Now I know what you meant by "sphere geometrics." However, people that aim contact-point-to-contact-point are not aiming their cue at the contact point, they are sighting along the contact points, and the cue is parallel to their line of sight (theoretically anyway ... but the eyes might not see it this way).

Regards,
Dave

I didn't wirte that. It was that old guy that send me home broke, and the way he said it:grin: The rest is from Ray Martin.........

I studied your diagram, but you haven't yet answered the relevant question.......Your diagram still is based on a CP that, <if you believe Ray Martin> will not work for any aiming system. Hence, I rest my case..... juST KIDDING.!!

 

[ShootingArts]

mental compensations

Maybe for you , but not for everybody. It all depends on how you see things.

I've never considered the CP on the cue ball. I use the CP on the oject ball as a point where I mentally draw a straight line from a point in the center of the pocket to a point on the table that is 1/2 ball past the CP on the object ball. I then try to put the base of the cue ball at the point that is 1/2 ball from the object which is online with the CP to pocket line. Once I know the spot, I never think about the object ball CP, just the point on the table that is 1/2 ball from the edge of the object ball. This the Arrow system by Babe Cranfield.

By having a point that is off of the object ball helps me keep my eyes looking straight and not moving off line between the object ball and where the cue ball needs to be.

Your method requires mental compensations just as I stated.

Hu

 

[ceebee]

I like sighting down the center of the shaft, while incorporating contact point to contact point. That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.

 

[randyg]

How can One judge other shooting systems if One has not mastered those systems????????????????

Believe me, it takes more than just talent to switch aiming systems.

To date I have studied 25 "aiming systems" and I'm still open for more.

If there are 49 million pool players, let's guess how many aiming systems there actually might be out there....

To each his own.....SPF=randyg
PS: Let's put the proof on the table!

 

[duckie]

My reply was to the comment that contact point to contact point is the only way to sight balls which is not true. With the way I see things, there is no mental compensation done. I have to only think about one point on the table to put the cue ball and not two points on balls that need to meet.

 

[pool101]

Your method requires mental compensations just as I stated.

Hu

Isn't it possible that "trying" to get the cue ball act a certain way is what causes the Object ball to miss?
I mean if you "roll" the cue ball to a specific spot on the table

(I use the CP on the object ball as a point where I mentally draw a straight line from a point in the center of the pocket to a point on the table that is 1/2 ball past the CP on the object ball. I then try to put the base of the cue ball at the point that is 1/2 ball from the object which is online with the CP to pocket line. Once I know the spot, I never think about the object ball CP, just the point on the table that is 1/2 ball from the edge of the object ball. )

the object ball will go. I don't believe distance changes the contact point.
The Object ball has no idea if the bue ball came 1 ft. or 8 ft unless there is extra on the cueball at contact.
Speed and spin or dirty equipment, Yes;
"Trying" to get a reaction off the ball or rails, Yes;
and that is why you need the adjustments.
Just my thoughts
Mark

 

[Neil]

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