SIMONIS 860 vs SIMONIS 760

[realkingcobra]

Ok,,if this has nothing do with the cloth as you say. The I can go put any cloth on this and still get 9 rails??? Hell NO!!!!

And that is what you are saying,,go read your own post. All I said is,,,the cloth is why it is going 9 rails. And BTW,,,,,The table plays GREAT and banks great!!!! just fast.

I could care less how many tables you worked on.

If you are going to correct me ,,,,please give the right answer. My table banks 9 rails side to side because the cloth is extremely fast!!! And yep,,,it takes good rails to do this. But without fast cloth there is no way in hell.

Have you ever seen a table that you can make a cue ball hit 8 rails side to side?? Have you ever even tried it??? Because really there is no reason to,,,,,, and why I stated the reason I tried it in the first place!!!!

I have been playing pool for over 30 years. This is the fastest table I have ever seen.

I have not posted on here in quite a long time,,seems there are allot of arrogant know it all shits on here.

Now go back and read your post and see where you went wrong. I don't care about you job,your college degree or your life. Just that wore out 860 is very fast!!!!:thumbup: But hold on??? Hmmm ?? Its because of the rails on my table,,,right?? not the cloth!!!

OK, look...I'll play your little game buddy, but so you can LEARN something NEW, take 2 of the shafts on your cues, lay them on the bed cloth of the table, side by side in order to create a down hill ramp. Roll the cue ball down the shafts with a natural free roll...meaning don't push the cue ball. Now, take note as to how far your cue ball rolled. Go to another table with the same cloth, don't matter what size it is as you're only measuring the distance of a down hill roll. Do the same thing on the next test table. If for example, the cue ball rolls out 15 inches off the end of the shafts on your table, it should roll about the same distance off the next table. But what you're trying to say...is your table is SO fast, the cue ball will roll like it's on slate and travel 90" inches whereas on the next table...it'll only roll 12"...LEARN SOMETHING...WILL YOU! Speed of the cloth determines the playing field speed of a table, cushions determine the speed in which the balls will come off them!!!! Incorrect cushions, being to low, will lift the cue ball off the slate as it reverses in the bank...eliminating drag, which is the speed of the cloth...and bouncing a ball from rail to rail for a total bank count, like in your case...has nothing to do with the speed of the cloth...now, GO OUT AND DO WHAT I SAID, THEN COME BACK AND REPORT WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED!

Glen

 

[Grilled Cheese]

760 is too fast. I'd only use that cloth on a 9' table and only if I was a 14.1 player only. It's too fast for 9/10 ball. Can do 8 ball on it, but that's annoying too. It's worse on smaller tables in my opinion, because of the smaller surface there's less roll distance before getting to cushions ..so these tables play way too fast. It gets to the point where you can't stroke the ball with authority and control the CB on many shots. End up having to play like old-timers and putt balls around. But it's excellent for 14.1. Balls break out easier, slower speed caroms, combos, kisses go. Slow roll finesse safeties roll truer (assuming the table is level and the slate doesn't have high's and low's on each piece). There's another scenario I might use 760, and that's in a non-climate controlled environment. If you want fast say on a garage kept pool table...you can kind of "cheat" by using 760. It's still not the same as it will be sticky but there will be less resistance ...in other words, less slide and whatnot. Not the same as the genuine speed from a lower humidity climate. Using 860 on something like a garage table with no A/C is like playing in mud.


860 is good, but what I really dislike about it is how slow it gets as it ages. It plays too slow in my opinion. Particularly in high humidity regions like the south. It's great when you first install it, but it doesn't age as well as others. Like all cloth, it will slow down as it get dirty ...but with humidity it plays slow and sticky even with the A/C. Much better than that is the 860HR. Not only is it tougher because of the higher nylon content, but it is also better in humid climates. A lot better. I love this cloth. It plays faster than 860, but no where near as fast as 760. Speed with control. Like I said, 760 makes some games difficult or not ideal. On a table with fast cushions, 760...and/or 8ft - it's like pinball.


Another good choice is Stratchan/Milliken SuperPro. This cloth is a hair faster than 860HR, but still not as fast as 760.


Goes like this:


760 - very fast



SuperPro
860HR

860



To kind of show a "scale" of speed as my experience and opinion. 760 is out way ahead, then you got SP and HR very close to one another...hard to tell apart at times as far as speed, but SP has the edge, then there's a noticeable gap, still small, but noticeable between SP/HR and standard 860.


Do keep in mind, relatively speaking these are all close to each other compared to other cloths such as the non-worsted. But in comparison to each other, if nitpicking the differences..that's how I see the speed difference. Among other pool geeks and people who pay attention, that's also been the consensus locally. I've played on all 4 of those quite a bit, both new and worn out.


Installation makes a big difference too. I've seen some tables freshly recovered and the cloth wrinkles by simply placing your bridge hand down with hardly any force at all. Incompetent installations will effect play. Installers of Glen's caliber, of which there's very few ...stretch that cloth tight. Not insane to where the cloth fibers are on the verge of breaking, but to where you won't get a wrinkle on it from any kind of normal play or interaction with the bed of the table.


Because of that, some people who haven't been around pool long form poor judgments about cloths because of some hack installer did their local pool room.


To summarize, I'd go 760 only on 9', if a 14.1 player, or if trying to speed up conditions on a non-climate controlled table. 860 is fine, if you live in a dry or normal climate (anywhere but Florida). 860HR is excellent everywhere. Best cloth ever created. SuperPro is a pretty close second to 860HR. I wrote a lengthy head to head comparison of SP and HR in another thread if you want more info from my personal experiences.



Expert table mechanics are under appreciated and not respected. There is so much to know about how to make a table play correctly. It really is a skilled craft. It's not as simple as just stretching and stapling cloth on. There's 1,000's of bozos around the country who service tables on the cheap...and they all play like crap. Because of that, there's even more players out there who never experience playing on a table the way it's suppose to play. They never get a taste of the sweetness of a great table. Rare is the mechanic who does the job right, but they're not cheap - but the reward is a table that you play on and never find a complaint about. I love that. I love being on a table where I never find anything to b1tch about. I admit I can be a little picky, but I just like things to be ideal or right. I do my job to the best that I can and settle for nothing else but a job done right...so I expect that of others too, including table mechanics. It's about pride. It's about decency.

In my region, there aren't any guys near Glen's level...to get the job done right, I had to learn to do it myself. And I did by also talking with Glen, and I did it perfect. But it was a LOT of work.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I disagree that 760 is too fast. I happen to have and enjoy 760 on my 8 foot table. What 760 does is improve your slow speed cue ball control, that is the delicate end of your game. This is where safeties are won and lost-especially length of table safties.

 

[flash5153]

I new an asteroid was coming ....

so what you are saying is that when you have brand new 860 the table banks 4-5 lengths as it should. But after a year of playing on the cloth all of a sudden it banks 9 lengths?

that makes no sense. I want to see a video of this and I also want to see exactly what your rail height is ....


btw, if it banks 9 lengths it would be a waste of time to play on this table as no other table on earth plays this way .....maybe on the moon but not on earth.

What Are you talking about??? I never said anything about new cloth or playing on a year old cloth. LMAO

Pictures are coming,,have no video.

 

[wontonny]

RKC,

Could you shed some light as to why Earl would insist on using 860 on the bed and 760 on the rails? How differently would a table play like this? I remember this being one of his requirements for that match with SVB on the 10 footer.

 

[flash5153]

so hit it with a hard stroke if you want to make the ball bounce and stop?

please fix your table ....rail height should be 1 & 7/16 inches ....you are probably at 1 1/4 inches right now.

fix the rail height then count the banks.
then replace the cloth and count the banks

then report back.

Took a measurement and it is very close to that. It's about 1 3/8, maybe 1 9/16.
Tables a little dirty ,,I had a blanket on it.

 

[Dartman]

...But after a year of playing on the cloth all of a sudden it banks 9 lengths? ...

He said 9 rails side to side.
That's nice.
:boring:

Looks like 1 3/8" per the pic. A video would be interesting to see how much ball hop
comes with those 9 rails.

 

[flash5153]

OK, look...I'll play your little game buddy, but so you can LEARN something NEW, take 2 of the shafts on your cues, lay them on the bed cloth of the table, side by side in order to create a down hill ramp. Roll the cue ball down the shafts with a natural free roll...meaning don't push the cue ball. Now, take note as to how far your cue ball rolled. Go to another table with the same cloth, don't matter what size it is as you're only measuring the distance of a down hill roll. Do the same thing on the next test table. If for example, the cue ball rolls out 15 inches off the end of the shafts on your table, it should roll about the same distance off the next table. But what you're trying to say...is your table is SO fast, the cue ball will roll like it's on slate and travel 90" inches whereas on the next table...it'll only roll 12"...LEARN SOMETHING...WILL YOU! Speed of the cloth determines the playing field speed of a table, cushions determine the speed in which the balls will come off them!!!! Incorrect cushions, being to low, will lift the cue ball off the slate as it reverses in the bank...eliminating drag, which is the speed of the cloth...and bouncing a ball from rail to rail for a total bank count, like in your case...has nothing to do with the speed of the cloth...now, GO OUT AND DO WHAT I SAID, THEN COME BACK AND REPORT WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED!

Glen

I just rolled the cue down two 29" shafts. It rolled out 27" and very accurate as I tried it many times.

I have no idea what that means as far as speed because I only have 1 table with 860 on it. Can anyone try this and give results??? 29" shafts,,cue started at the farthest end.
And see how many times you make the cue go side to side while your at it. I have a 71/2 ft valley with 860 cloth.

And now,,buddy. lol (it's your game,,I'm just following your steps)
There might be some other tables out there can get the same results. I have no idea and neither do you. No one goes around slamming balls rail to rail for a count.

But if you want to check the speed of a table with what you have with you around a table,,,hmmm...maybe bounce the ball off a few rails. If one goes more rails than the other. Answer this!! Which one is faster???

I made a simple statement at the begging of this game. My tables will go 9 rails side to side. And you satid it has nothing to do with the cloth. That is WRONG,,period.

The rails have something to do with it,,but since the cue ball never leaves the table top ,at least not on a good hit,,,it spends allot of time with this friction you refer too. And my table does not have much friction.

I think 860 is a great cloth by the way,,lasted a long time. From what you say,,when I replace it,,my table will slow down a bit. We will see. I hope so. I will for sure get the rails where they need to be also. Thanks for the heads up on my rail height.

 

[flash5153]

He said 9 rails side to side.
That's nice.
:boring:

Looks like 1 3/8" per the pic. A video would be interesting to see how much ball hop
comes with those 9 rails.

ya,,1 3/8 is about right. I will try a video,,not sure how to post it. I know how on U-tube but it's been awhile.

As far as ball hop. If I hit it as hard as I can it will either jump badley or hop like you say,, It does not do any good and will slow down quickly after a few rails.
It has to be a good smooth ,firm (medium/hard)center ball stroke ,,the cue will hop the first few rails but very very little,can hear it more than can see it.Makes a click noise. The after 2-3 rails it is on the table ,not hopping,,and going for a long ride.

 

[realkingcobra]

Took a measurement and it is very close to that. It's about 1 3/8, maybe 1 9/16.
Tables a little dirty ,,I had a blanket on it.

You're also using a Valley mud ball, which is what's leaving all them white spots all over the playing surface, notice how there's very little spotting on the cloth right in front of the rails? I can also tell by the downward angle of the cushions that the cloth is not wrapped around the bottom back side of the rails, which adds to the cue ball hopping off the rails...oh yeah, your table has ball hop that's for sure. Change the rails out to the Ridge back rails and they'll cure the playability of your table, that you can be sure of, because at least then....your table will play right. And yes, I do bank the cue ball 5 times the length of the table and 9 rails around on every table I recalibrate the rails on, and recover...no matter what.

Glen

PS. Funny thing is that a lot of people thought the Diamonds played real fast like your table does, and voiced their complaints about that to Diamond, but after I redesigned the rails for them to slow the cushion action down some, the complaints went away....but the tables still use the same exact cloth on them that they did...when they played so fast too

 

[Palmetto cue]

760 has the same wool/nylon blend as the 860HR, 70%wool/30%nylon, where as the normal 860 is 90%wool/10%nylon. The main difference is that the weave being 177 threads per inch. They all three use the same 177 thread per inch, but the 760 uses thinner, as in not as thick threads to weave the 177 thread count, therefore creating a playing surface with less resistance to ball roll, meaning a faster cloth on the playing surface. 760 is most commonly used for pattern playing games where the speed of the balls is more important than the speed of the cue ball, ie: 14.1, 8ball, banks. Games that require a slower cue ball, such as 1pocket, 9ball, 10ball use the 860 more often, as the speed of the object balls are not really noticed as they're being pocketed, whereas the cue ball might be sent around the table 3 rails after pocketing the ball...and the less travel of the cue ball...the better it is...or it has a better chance of finding a hole to drop in. Not only that, in 1pocket, you don't want a run away cue ball after cross corner banking an object ball with a good stroke...you WANT to know that the cue ball is NOT going to go further than your stroke intended it to go.

Hope that makes sense to you guys:grin:

Glen

Glen,
Thanks as usual for the great info! My home room is fixing to put new cloth on and they were trying to decide on 760 vs 860 HR. Is it true that the 860 HR will be slightly slower, but will be much more wear resistant? Thanks again for the help. :thumbup:

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen,
Thanks as usual for the great info! My home room is fixing to put new cloth on and they were trying to decide on 760 vs 860 HR. Is it true that the 860 HR will be slightly slower, but will be much more wear resistant? Thanks again for the help. :thumbup:

Yes, in the open playing field with the 860HR, there is a noticeable difference in the speed being slower than the 760. The wear factor of the HR is outstanding. And new, it plays like it's already broke in, just make sure it's installed tight.

Glen

 

[JimS]

Yes, in the open playing field with the 860HR, there is a noticeable difference in the speed being slower than the 760. The wear factor of the HR is outstanding. And new, it plays like it's already broke in, just make sure it's installed tight.

Glen

Mine was! and is! :groucho:

 

[DST]

I just rolled the cue down two 29" shafts. It rolled out 27" and very accurate as I tried it many times.

Simonis 860. Measles cue ball. 29 inch shaft....It Rolled 29" .....(with Zshafts it rolled 30.5) I have a 9ft table so I did not try the bank.

 

[Bambu]

I new an asteroid was coming ....

so what you are saying is that when you have brand new 860 the table banks 4-5 lengths as it should. But after a year of playing on the cloth all of a sudden it banks 9 lengths?

that makes no sense. I want to see a video of this and I also want to see exactly what your rail height is ....


btw, if it banks 9 lengths it would be a waste of time to play on this table as no other table on earth plays this way .....maybe on the moon but not on earth.

I agree, his rails are probably a tad low....ball hop city. Fast cloth alone would have an effect, but the cushions are what really make the balls move. Best way to really know is to listen for a bounce off the rail, or check the rails with a gauge.

 

[bbb]

appreciate the feedback thus far
:thumbup:
as for the 9 time acoss debate
to the guy who claims his table will do this
start a new thread to continue your discussion
please
thanks

 

[quadrary]

Glen is correct but side to side 8 rails is the same as 4 rails table length and that is not excessive i can do that on mine or most tables for that matter. For someone who is telling Glen he is wrong you dont sound very experienced with many different tables for a 30 year player per your post. Also your post stated a 7 foot table not really that impressive since 4 lengthwise a 9 footer is more roll than you are getting.

 

[flash5153]

Glen is correct but side to side 8 rails is the same as 4 rails table length and that is not excessive i can do that on mine or most tables for that matter. For someone who is telling Glen he is wrong you dont sound very experienced with many different tables for a 30 year player per your post. Also your post stated a 7 foot table not really that impressive since 4 lengthwise a 9 footer is more roll than you are getting.

I was trying to let this go,,thought it was all good.But???

Thanks for your input. Not sure if you realize it or not ,,but you just agreed with me. I stated my table was fast,,and you say it is not so impressive compared to other tables,,and that you can do this too.
But I was told my rails are all messed because I can do this. Hmmmm???
So I guess any table that can do this,,not matter what cloth,,, ,,the rails are wrong.

Thank you.

Let it go!!!! I want to be done with it. I started out with a simple statement,,and got corrected with the wrong info,,,period.
I was wrong in the I responded also. I apologize for that. I can see the point from both sides. Mistakes were made.