Simple aiming system
- Thread starter Mensabum
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Oikawa
Well-known member
As bbb was trying to say, cutting into the wrong side of the pocket is not comparable to cutting into the correct side by a wrong amount. Obviously people will more commonly miss into B than C in your image due to B being just a thinner hit on the correct side, but C being in the completely wrong side (from the POV of the cue ball).
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snookered_again
Well-known member
the shot looks like a giveaway to me, even on a 12 foot snooker table, I dont see how the line diagrams or the childish arguments would help a new player, probably best to just practice a little. usually if they don't sink the ball its because they didn't hit the cue ball quite right. and they over cut or undercut it a little or applied the wrong spin.
if the shot was difficult , they would have the option of hitting the ball to point C with some bottom, to park the CB on the rail somewhere near point C and leave the OB mid rail on the cushion , opposite end. that requires being sensitive to the speed and amount of bottom and is less about aim. both rails are about 4-6 feet long so it's a big target.
there are other ways to accomplish that, cut it thin enough that the ball hits the rail and then bounces to the end and that would leave mre energy int he CB so it can make it back to the other end. to learn that they need to understand how the cut angle will change the speed of both balls.
the opponent would probably try to do a long bank with a lower than 50% chance of success , but on a little diamond or some other kids sized table or a bar table made for drunks, maybe the long bank is a lot easier, then it may be better just to make the shot.
if the aim is to help the green player it might be good to watch and see, if he's constantly over cutting the shot then correct it, or it may be a lot more to do with posture and stroke.. So beat him and smile and have have another game or set up the shot a few times and help him with his aim.
most new players already know their ABC's and no one starts out with experience so discussion around what letter you think they are is just Irrellevant judgemantal and insulting anyway.
sure explain ball induced throw if the person can receive that info, if its too much, just lighten up and let them practice more.
Also no harm in resetting the balls and letting the player try ten times, I bet in 1/2 hour the ability changes and the percentage of missed shots is reduced. if they still miss put the 5 nearer to the pocket, build confidence. then move it further.
repeating the shot and looking for why the player keeps missing is helpful.
i found the line drawing just confusing. I guess you are trying to compensate for throw through some graphical representation..
no mention of what spin he used , that will affect the throw almost as much as how he hits the ball.
i guess one could be taught tohit every shot center ball and compensate for throw with aim, but without understanding how to use spin they wont get far with CB placement for the next shot so won't help them run many balls. you'd be sending rhe 5 to the corner with spin caused by the impact and compensating with aim. how about helping him notice how much spin the collision is putting on the 5 and help him compensate with a little left english so he can roll it in without causing the 5 to be spinning between where it is and the pocket. ?
with either approach youstil have to understand that the spin will affect things. before the shot how about ask him where he is going with the CB? help him to control that so he can hit his predicted target. with that he can make the shot and have some decision where he's going. without understanding spin, he might make the one ball. he'll have little control over the placement of the CB. that shot leaves a lot of lattitude as to where the CB ends up.
a good excercise is to make that shot with both right and left english and show the new player how that will help him control the CB when he mkes the shot. If thats difficult, put it closer to the pocket so he isn't losing confidence. you can toss a random ball anywhere on the table and get him to try to make the ball and hit that loose ball. he'll need to use english but having a target in mind helps more than just making a simple shot, if the point is to learn from your excercise. I think the main thing tht will be lerned by that is that after the collision with the 5, on the first rail they will see how spin directs the CB and start learning how to control that to their advantage.
you have to take the persons skill into account, I know people that could never wrap their head around the theory, especially if they are new and learning and a bit overwhelmed already,,
some who are more technical grasp the physics a lot more easily. the person lacking the technical can often still learn ot make balls quite well.
if the shot was difficult , they would have the option of hitting the ball to point C with some bottom, to park the CB on the rail somewhere near point C and leave the OB mid rail on the cushion , opposite end. that requires being sensitive to the speed and amount of bottom and is less about aim. both rails are about 4-6 feet long so it's a big target.
there are other ways to accomplish that, cut it thin enough that the ball hits the rail and then bounces to the end and that would leave mre energy int he CB so it can make it back to the other end. to learn that they need to understand how the cut angle will change the speed of both balls.
the opponent would probably try to do a long bank with a lower than 50% chance of success , but on a little diamond or some other kids sized table or a bar table made for drunks, maybe the long bank is a lot easier, then it may be better just to make the shot.
if the aim is to help the green player it might be good to watch and see, if he's constantly over cutting the shot then correct it, or it may be a lot more to do with posture and stroke.. So beat him and smile and have have another game or set up the shot a few times and help him with his aim.
most new players already know their ABC's and no one starts out with experience so discussion around what letter you think they are is just Irrellevant judgemantal and insulting anyway.
sure explain ball induced throw if the person can receive that info, if its too much, just lighten up and let them practice more.
Also no harm in resetting the balls and letting the player try ten times, I bet in 1/2 hour the ability changes and the percentage of missed shots is reduced. if they still miss put the 5 nearer to the pocket, build confidence. then move it further.
repeating the shot and looking for why the player keeps missing is helpful.
i found the line drawing just confusing. I guess you are trying to compensate for throw through some graphical representation..
no mention of what spin he used , that will affect the throw almost as much as how he hits the ball.
i guess one could be taught tohit every shot center ball and compensate for throw with aim, but without understanding how to use spin they wont get far with CB placement for the next shot so won't help them run many balls. you'd be sending rhe 5 to the corner with spin caused by the impact and compensating with aim. how about helping him notice how much spin the collision is putting on the 5 and help him compensate with a little left english so he can roll it in without causing the 5 to be spinning between where it is and the pocket. ?
with either approach youstil have to understand that the spin will affect things. before the shot how about ask him where he is going with the CB? help him to control that so he can hit his predicted target. with that he can make the shot and have some decision where he's going. without understanding spin, he might make the one ball. he'll have little control over the placement of the CB. that shot leaves a lot of lattitude as to where the CB ends up.
a good excercise is to make that shot with both right and left english and show the new player how that will help him control the CB when he mkes the shot. If thats difficult, put it closer to the pocket so he isn't losing confidence. you can toss a random ball anywhere on the table and get him to try to make the ball and hit that loose ball. he'll need to use english but having a target in mind helps more than just making a simple shot, if the point is to learn from your excercise. I think the main thing tht will be lerned by that is that after the collision with the 5, on the first rail they will see how spin directs the CB and start learning how to control that to their advantage.
you have to take the persons skill into account, I know people that could never wrap their head around the theory, especially if they are new and learning and a bit overwhelmed already,,
some who are more technical grasp the physics a lot more easily. the person lacking the technical can often still learn ot make balls quite well.
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In my experience, players, on average, tend to hit the object ball too full. I think this applies to all levels of players. But that is just my informal observation. Without carefully recording misses of various levels of players, it's just guesswork.
Of course this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread except the proposed system -- if followed carefully and exactly -- will have you hit the ball too full on any cut shot.
Of course this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread except the proposed system -- if followed carefully and exactly -- will have you hit the ball too full on any cut shot.
I've always been skeptical of the "misses are usually overcuts" claim - not because I know better, just because I've never heard a rationale for it or any data supporting it.
pj
chgo
Double o, you do realize I hope, that cutting beyond B would be close to a 90 degree cut.
This whole thing is just another case of you putting forth a theory that you dreamed up and then defending it to the death to assuage your ego. Perhaps you should see a pool shrink.
The shots I notice that get overcut more often than undercut is a small angle cut, around 7 to 10 degrees or so, but also some shots between 10 and 30°. I believe it's because some shots simply LOOK thinner than they really are. But I don't know of any data or research that's been done.
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How did my responding to your comments become "defending it to the death"? You've not cited any facts to require a defense.
All,
Thanks for your input. Keep an eye on when people miss in a big way. Long rail or shot? Report back your findings.
Thanks for your input. Keep an eye on when people miss in a big way. Long rail or shot? Report back your findings.
I gave a three-part rationale earlier in this thread. Start there.
dquarasr
Registered
I tend to agree with you, Bob, but on 30-45° cuts. On thinner cuts, overcut. On less than 45°, undercut.
I’ve watched plenty of APA SL3-4 players. On straighter cuts, almost always hit too thick for what I believe are two reasons:
1) They don’t account for throw.
2) They look at the object ball, not where they want the cue ball to go (whether or not they use ghost ball) and therefore steer the shot too much towards the object ball.
I would tend to agree with......if it were boiled down to stats........ the bell curve would most likly lean more toward a thick hit.....aka undercut.
What is totally being left out of this equation though is the mirror effect........There are many a player that will see shots different cutting to the left vs cutting to the right and may have a tendency to only hit thick to one side....may overcut to one side....may hit perfect to one side.
There are just so many variables and players it would be hard to statis...ize??????
This is all based on players that have a modicum of playing time and ability.....D players...you can forget about tendencies.....They don't have an accurate enough stroke to be consistent or have tendencies....which is sometimes why it is actually frustrating to play a D player.....Better players miss closer to the hole and tend to sell out more......D players miss so badly from every direction they tend to wind up safe...or totally change the layout of the table.
I will give an instructor the benefit of doubt.....in that a majority of the players in that instructors pocket of visibility are players that have pretty much been taught the same things......perhaps even by that instructor..........and thus may end up with similar flaws.
A pocket of players in a different area may have been taught different things and may see shots in a different way.
Interesting discussion......Mensabum has adapted his method to fit him......I wonder though.....If Mensabum had been an instructor if his students miss tendencies would lean toward thick hits?
What is totally being left out of this equation though is the mirror effect........There are many a player that will see shots different cutting to the left vs cutting to the right and may have a tendency to only hit thick to one side....may overcut to one side....may hit perfect to one side.
There are just so many variables and players it would be hard to statis...ize??????
This is all based on players that have a modicum of playing time and ability.....D players...you can forget about tendencies.....They don't have an accurate enough stroke to be consistent or have tendencies....which is sometimes why it is actually frustrating to play a D player.....Better players miss closer to the hole and tend to sell out more......D players miss so badly from every direction they tend to wind up safe...or totally change the layout of the table.
I will give an instructor the benefit of doubt.....in that a majority of the players in that instructors pocket of visibility are players that have pretty much been taught the same things......perhaps even by that instructor..........and thus may end up with similar flaws.
A pocket of players in a different area may have been taught different things and may see shots in a different way.
Interesting discussion......Mensabum has adapted his method to fit him......I wonder though.....If Mensabum had been an instructor if his students miss tendencies would lean toward thick hits?
I set the diagrammed shot up for Tom Kennedy and a friend this weekend, in person. Tom said, "Overcut more so than undercut, probably because shooters are slightly off their cue angle and deflect the cue ball."
When working with students in person, most of the time they overcut on misses with the diagrammed cut or a similar cut. We then retrain their aim and other related skills.
Another post that makes no sense. They could be slightly off in either direction, correct?
No. You need to think through the issues with more care.
PJ, you are often right about pool technique. But when you are wrong, like now, you stop thinking and asking good questions, and act like a jerk, which is why AZ has banned you four times.