Sounds good to me.
What affects the speed of the shot is the speed the cue travels from end of backswing to end of the forward motion.
Simplifying the stroke ?
- Thread starter JoeyInCali
- Start date
Sounds good to me.
What affects the speed of the shot is the speed the cue travels from end of backswing to end of the forward motion.
I'm curious, if the back swing is constant, and as such must be controlled.....does the player have to be conscious of the movement to maintain the steady motion and only the forward swing is executed from the subconscious mind?
Or, are both the constant back swing and the forward swing executed subconsciously?
It seems to me that only the forward stroke would be from the subconscious since the back swing has to be consciously controlled where as the traditional rhythmic stroke simply transitions from the back swing and flows naturally into the forward swing without having to manage variable speeds and as such is subconscious from back swing through delivery.
For those using a constant back swing, can you shed some light on this?
Or, are both the constant back swing and the forward swing executed subconsciously?
It seems to me that only the forward stroke would be from the subconscious since the back swing has to be consciously controlled where as the traditional rhythmic stroke simply transitions from the back swing and flows naturally into the forward swing without having to manage variable speeds and as such is subconscious from back swing through delivery.
For those using a constant back swing, can you shed some light on this?
You make absolutely zero sense, and I'm not even sure you know what you're talking about.
To answer your question, however, both my back and forward swing are void of conscious thought.
Bieber, not to be disrespectful but the fact that it makes no sense to you does not surprise me at all.
Nonetheless I will attempt to clarify my question for you and others who use this technique.
The stroke is for most players a subconscious movement from the back swing through the forward swing. If you have to consciously manage the speed of the back swing to achieve a regulated constant speed then does this not change the point where the subconscious mind takes over within the execution of the stroke to the point where they player executes the forward swing.
I can see where players might become familiar with a process and the constant regulated back swing might feel natural but I'm having difficulty comprehending that the mind can perform this constant speed backswing subconsciously since it requires an awareness of the regulated movement in order to be constant. As opposed to a subconscious rhythmic movement that executes automatically due to unregulated responsive muscle contractions.
Nonetheless I will attempt to clarify my question for you and others who use this technique.
The stroke is for most players a subconscious movement from the back swing through the forward swing. If you have to consciously manage the speed of the back swing to achieve a regulated constant speed then does this not change the point where the subconscious mind takes over within the execution of the stroke to the point where they player executes the forward swing.
I can see where players might become familiar with a process and the constant regulated back swing might feel natural but I'm having difficulty comprehending that the mind can perform this constant speed backswing subconsciously since it requires an awareness of the regulated movement in order to be constant. As opposed to a subconscious rhythmic movement that executes automatically due to unregulated responsive muscle contractions.
I'll make it very clear for you. My backswing is constant. Well at least as constant as possible. I can't say for certain if it reaches the exact same spot before the forward swing begins, but I can assure you it's pretty darn close. There is absolutely no conscious thought involved, and how this can be so confusing to you is beyond me.
Let's assume a player has 3 distinct backswing lengths for slow, medium, and fast speeds. It would be easy for me to say there must be some conscious thought involved. Since on shots of varying speeds, the player must at least be aware of how far to pull the cue back.
But for myself, I know where the end of my backswing is, and therefore never have to think about how far to pull the cue back. All that matters is how fast or slow I get from that point to the end of the forward swing, and that too, has no conscious thought.
If you have any further questions or objections, I'll be happy to let someone else answer them. I believe I've explained my position well enough.
-Jon
Edit: No disrespect taken. I realized right after posting my previous post that my comment was a little harsh. However, I'm not a big fan of the "Edit" button, and try not to hide behind it to hide what's been said.
beiber, after reading your last post, I'm not so sure you and I are talking about the same thing.
You reference the distance of your back swing being constant and I have never been concerned about the distance but rather the speed of the back swing where the player draws back the cue at the same controlled, even speed on every shot regardless of the level of force applied to the forward swing.
It is this aspect of the back stroke that would strike me as having to be performed on a conscious level since it has no relationship to the forward swing unlike the traditional rhythmic stroke which relies on the action of the back swing to flow rhythmically into the forward swing simply by natural momentum.
I have a strong suspicion that people who adopt this approach to using the same even back swing regardless of the forward speed have simply modified where the subconscious takes over to a position at the conclusion of their back swing as opposed to having the entire stroke being subconscious from start to finish. This might also correlate with why you state you have three separate distances that you use. These would have to be consciously applied as well relative to the shot. Repetition has likely given the impression that the entire process is subconscious since we seldom recognize when we transition from the conscious to the subconscious.
I don't expect you to respond any further to this question as I sense that it has frustrated you but it would be interesting to hear from other players who use this strategy.
You reference the distance of your back swing being constant and I have never been concerned about the distance but rather the speed of the back swing where the player draws back the cue at the same controlled, even speed on every shot regardless of the level of force applied to the forward swing.
It is this aspect of the back stroke that would strike me as having to be performed on a conscious level since it has no relationship to the forward swing unlike the traditional rhythmic stroke which relies on the action of the back swing to flow rhythmically into the forward swing simply by natural momentum.
I have a strong suspicion that people who adopt this approach to using the same even back swing regardless of the forward speed have simply modified where the subconscious takes over to a position at the conclusion of their back swing as opposed to having the entire stroke being subconscious from start to finish. This might also correlate with why you state you have three separate distances that you use. These would have to be consciously applied as well relative to the shot. Repetition has likely given the impression that the entire process is subconscious since we seldom recognize when we transition from the conscious to the subconscious.
I don't expect you to respond any further to this question as I sense that it has frustrated you but it would be interesting to hear from other players who use this strategy.
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Sorry, I thought you were referencing the backswing distance, as some players do vary how far they pull the cue back. Since I see you are talking purely on the speed of the backswing, I'd be interested in seeing some videos of pros that pull back at different speeds, because I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Here's the thing about back swing speed: It can make or break your stroke timing. It can also make or break your ability to actually 'see' what you are supposed to be looking at.
In short: Beginners and even many intermediate players have an inconsistent backstroke speed, and generally, way too fast. As a result, they miss a lot.
I encourage a consistent, slow backstroke speed, regardless of the forward motion speed. Do top players bring back their cues at exactly the same speed all the time? Probably not. But it is a pretty consistent speed with a few exceptions.
So encouraging beginning and intermediate players to slow down their backstrokes and try to develop a consistent speed is the first step in breaking a very difficult unconscious bad habit. Yes, unfortunately it has to be conscious for quite awhile until a new neurological pathway is embedded.
But a slow, consistent backstroke speed is good place for any player to start. Then they can tweak it from there.
Great post Fran! It doesn't seem like rrick33 understands the psychology of training. As you noted, you have to consciously train the conscious, before something can become ingrained into the subconscious. The amount of time that takes varies widely by the individual. I've seen some players pick it up in a week or two...and others who still didn't "get it" six months later.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Actually, you aren't giving him enough credit. Neither of us answered his post exactly. Maybe he's right that you can't shoot with the exact same backstroke speed for every shot without doing it consciously. It's a very good point and unless someone measures the speed of every backstroke of a top player, we really don't know.
My point is that you can try to slow it down consciously, and even though you may not be able to do it consistently unconsciously, it will be better than a rushed backstroke that blows your timing.
I'd love to hear what you're working on when you're ready to share it. Sounds interesting.
Hey good luck with your book and thanks.
As usual: fantastic posting mylady
hope you re doing good *hugs* ^^
Thanks! Doing great. Karen Corr and I have set the date for our first workshop --- Jan 14th in New York City. Details are coming.....
Hugs to you too! :kiss:
JC
Coos Cues
I know this may go against much conventional wisdom but I was taught by a professional player/teacher to regulate speed in many situations where you need finesse by changing bridge length. If you want a soft shot with a full follow through move your bridge closer to the cue ball. Much closer sometimes. Your backstroke will shorten by default or you will pull the ferule out of your bridge hand. The bridge length you choose will be your only conscious decision and the shorter backstroke will come naturally during the execution of the shot as the subconscious feedback you need is coming from your bridge hand. The forward part of your stroke will be mostly unchanged but the cue ball will be struck much earlier in the acceleration. This allows you to shoot some very soft shots without deviating from the window of your normal stroke speeds. If on the other hand you try to only draw your normal bridge length back by a third to achieve the same stroke you will be conscious of it needing to decide where to end the back stroke.. This works really well for me. Your mileage may vary.:smile:
JC
As a newb I think this is a great thread