Sixteen pool halls in NY win injunction to reopen

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Fighting the courts

Fighting the sanctioning body

thats what I was going for.

The tournaments are already on the books, why leave them unsanctioned?

The relationship being New York is where Cisero Murphy won the 14.1 championship.
WPA is not allowing players to complete in the 14.1 championship.

Its dysfunctional
Nonsense. If I run an event and call it a World 14.1 Championship, should WPA sanction it as a world championship? The Dragon event hasn't had a field worthy of a world 14.1 championship for about a decade. The European 14.1 Championships usually have a field that is just as tough.
In addition, the statement "WPA is not allowing players to compete" is false. Had Charlie renamed the event to something like the "National Straight Pool Championship," WPA would not have had a beef with it, and they all could have played. It was Dragon's refusal to desist from misrepresenting their event that resulted in the players not being able to compete.

Not sure what Cisero has to do with the discussion, but I believe his 1965 world title was won in Burbank, California, not New York.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
Nonsense. If I run an event and call it a World 14.1 Championship, should WPA sanction it as a world championship? The Dragon event hasn't had a field worthy of a world 14.1 championship for about a decade. The European 14.1 Championships usually have a field that is just as tough.
In addition, the statement "WPA is not allowing players to compete" is false. Had Charlie renamed the event to something like the "National Straight Pool Championship," WPA would not have had a beef with it, and they all could have played. It was Dragon's refusal to desist from misrepresenting their event that resulted in the players not being able to compete.

Not sure what Cisero has to do with the discussion, but I believe his 1965 world title was won in Burbank, California, not New York.
what I got confused with was

I thought Charlie Williams bought the rights for the World 14.1 event, that is why I am arguing this.

My thinking was CW bought the World 14.1 title and now the winner of the world 14.1 event has to be called a world champion or champion of the world 14.1 event.

The WPA and WCBS was formed after the World 14.1 event.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
what I got confused with was

I thought Charlie Williams bought the rights for the World 14.1 event, that is why I am arguing this.

My thinking was CW bought the World 14.1 title and now the winner of the world 14.1 event has to be called a world champion or champion of the world 14.1 event.

The WPA and WCBS was formed after the World 14.1 event.
Not accurate.

In 2006, Charlie proposed an event that would meet all WPA requirements to have it sanctioned as a world championship. WPA, consequently, permitted it to be called a world championship. Sanctioning, which is an annual matter, was gained again in 2007 and 2008 as the requirements continued to be met. After losing WPA sanctioning in 2009, it was regained in 2010, but in 2011 and since, sanctioning requirements have not been met, but Dragon chose to continue calling it a world championship, the absurdity of which has been discussed for many years on this forum.

As we've seen in other threads, you obviously don't think sanctioning is a big deal, but it is. When WPA sanctions an event, it carries world ranking points, and it gets date protection, meaning that during the dates reserved for that event, no other event can gain WPA sanctioning. European players who get government or Olympic funding can get it when they play in WPA sanctioned events overseas. This was the formula for attracting the most elite fields possible in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010, and it worked. Once sanctioning was lost, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of the fields.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
Not accurate.

In 2006, Charlie proposed an event that would meet all WPA requirements to have it sanctioned as a world championship. WPA, consequently, permitted it to be called a world championship. Sanctioning, which is an annual matter, was gained again in 2007 and 2008 as the requirements continued to be met. After losing WPA sanctioning in 2009, it was regained in 2010, but in 2011 and since, sanctioning requirements have not been met, but Dragon chose to continue calling it a world championship, the absurdity of which has been discussed for many years on this forum.

As we've seen in other threads, you obviously don't think sanctioning is a big deal, but it is. When WPA sanctions an event, it carries world ranking points, and it gets date protection, meaning that during the dates reserved for that event, no other event can gain WPA sanctioning. European players who get government or Olympic funding can get it when they play in WPA sanctioned events overseas. This was the formula for attracting the most elite fields possible in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010, and it worked. Once sanctioning was lost, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of the fields.
ok i will do better reporting and share your better researched presentation.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Under the Trump administration, the Covid vaccines were fast tracked (normally takes years not months to get new drugs through the FDA). My daughter works for Pfizer. She told me in late October the distribution network was being set up for the launch of their vaccine. The production and distribution of Covid vaccine was set up before the election. For Biden to take credit for this is like a rooster taking credit for the sunrise, just because it happened on his watch.
Well if its all set up and ready to go, why are the vaccines not being administered !!
It was supposed to get 20,000,000 people inoculated in Dec, we are yeat to reach that goal in mid Jan.

It is because the rollout was all botched up.....not a sign of compitance.........
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Once sanctioning was lost, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of the fields.
And the reasoning sanctioning was lost is because the added money was not there. There was originally a 5-year agreement that included a special exemption so that only $25,000 was added. Only four years were sanctioned because the money was not there -- not even $25k -- for the fifth year. In addition, the WPA got flack from other promoters who complained about the low added for a world championship while they were adding the full amount, which I think was $75,000 at the time.

For a real world championship you want people from all over the world. It's unreasonable to ask them to travel to uncertain conditions, pay high entry fees and have almost no prize fund. That's why there are sanctioning requirements. This is different from the traditional American approach which is to have the players fund the event and then the promoter runs the event as he pleases.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
And the reasoning sanctioning was lost is because the added money was not there. There was originally a 5-year agreement that included a special exemption so that only $25,000 was added. Only four years were sanctioned because the money was not there -- not even $25k -- for the fifth year. In addition, the WPA got flack from other promoters who complained about the low added for a world championship while they were adding the full amount, which I think was $75,000 at the time.

For a real world championship you want people from all over the world. It's unreasonable to ask them to travel to uncertain conditions, pay high entry fees and have almost no prize fund. That's why there are sanctioning requirements. This is different from the traditional American approach which is to have the players fund the event and then the promoter runs the event as he pleases.
Yes, I remember the same. Although I remember that the missing year of the first 5 was one of the middle year? Maybe year 4? Anyway, that is minutia now. Charlie couldn't even raise 25k for a world championship. Joss tour raises that twice per year.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
The wackiest of the wacky keep getting elected and re-elected.
That's not a bug, it's a feature. Ever get so engrossed in a movie, documentary or tv show that you forgot it wasn't real and forgot all your problems existed? Acting and playing pretend can be like that at all levels and it's become our drug of choice.

Who's the next president in line? My money is on Vince McMahon. He already knows how to play the heel. The heel makes a good scapegoat so everyone can point at them and be like "look at that bad man" while they rob you blind and do as bad or worse things as the "heel."

Seriously, this stuff is so on the nose that if you've ever watched wrestling, you understand what they are doing. They sure know how to effect the human psyche, there's literally groups who get paid as a full time job to find ways to manipulate our fragile meat minds.

I set back and enjoy the show, knowing that even this reaction (not buying the theater as real) has marked me as a crazy person. "Are you not entertained?"

Yeah, I agree. It’s “wacky” to elect someone who wants to manage the distribution of the vaccine to put an end to the pain, suffering and death from a contagion verses a amateur golfer that has no empathy for the sick and dead.
I bet you still think wrestling is real too. ;)

I hit my toe on a chair so I burned the neighborhood down.
At least you were peaceful about it. 😂
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Not sure you've uncovered anything here. There's no detective work needed. The truth is that, there was no attempt or desire by Dragon to get this year's 14.1 event sanctioned as a world championship. It hasn't been sanctioned for a decade, as your reproduction of the 2011 letter verifies. To the surprise of many, WPA never took action against Dragon for misrepresenting this event over the last ten years.

The chief difference between this year's event as proposed and Dragon events of the last decade is the change in format, with the revolutionary approach being to auto-qualify the top four finishers from the last event and then complete the field based on recorded high run attempts. This arbitrary, and ultimately ridiculous, means of getting into the field is just one more way in which this event strayed from the concepts that pertain to field filling for the prestigious international events in pool. WPA methodology for field filling ensures opportunities to players from all over the world, by guaranteeing a certain number of spots to each of its members (for example, BCA is one of its members).

The 2021 event died because of Dragon's insistence on both reformulating its entry rules and by continuing to misrepresent the event. Had the event been renamed to something accurate, it almost certainly would have been saved. WPA reached its breaking point. As a fan, I'm saddened this event won't happen, but WPA's actions were logical and fully justified.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
My take is Charlie Williams wanted to produce a show not an actual tournament. Calling the show the World 14.1 event, and on that show the winner is called the World 14.1 Champion.


Not sure you've uncovered anything here. There's no detective work needed. The truth is that, there was no attempt or desire by Dragon to get this year's 14.1 event sanctioned as a world championship. It hasn't been sanctioned for a decade, as your reproduction of the 2011 letter verifies. To the surprise of many, WPA never took action against Dragon for misrepresenting this event over the last ten years.

The chief difference between this year's event as proposed and Dragon events of the last decade is the change in format, with the revolutionary approach being to auto-qualify the top four finishers from the last event and then complete the field based on recorded high run attempts. This arbitrary, and ultimately ridiculous, means of getting into the field is just one more way in which this event strayed from the concepts that pertain to field filling for the prestigious international events in pool. WPA methodology for field filling ensures opportunities to players from all over the world, by guaranteeing a certain number of spots to each of its members (for example, BCA is one of its members).

The 2021 event died because of Dragon's insistence on both reformulating its entry rules and by continuing to misrepresent the event. Had the event been renamed to something accurate, it almost certainly would have been saved. WPA reached its breaking point. As a fan, I'm saddened this event won't happen, but WPA's actions were logical and fully justified.
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... To the surprise of many, WPA never took action against Dragon for misrepresenting this event over the last ten years. ...
Stu, I believe the WPA did take action (maybe more than once), which resulted in Dragon renaming the event from "World Championship" to "World Tournament". I think they slipped back this year.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Stu, I believe the WPA did take action (maybe more than once), which resulted in Dragon renaming the event from "World Championship" to "World Tournament". I think they slipped back this year.
Eureka, I never knew that. Thanks, Bob. Unusual that something like that escape my attention.
 

Brookeland Bill

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Under the Trump administration, the Covid vaccines were fast tracked (normally takes years not months to get new drugs through the FDA). My daughter works for Pfizer. She told me in late October the distribution network was being set up for the launch of their vaccine. The production and distribution of Covid vaccine was set up before the election. For Biden to take credit for this is like a rooster taking credit for the sunrise, just because it happened on his watch.

The only thing I can compare this administrations launch of the vaccine is to NASA’s Challenger disaster.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Returning to the matter of playing pool in NYC ...

... I've heard Amsterdam Billiards may open as early as next Wednesday. As I live just a few blocks away from there, I'm going to drop by to see how safe it is and if I'm sold, I might be inclined to hit a few balls for the first time in eleven months, At the very least, I'll have the privilege of saying hi to the exceptional staff that runs the room and, possibly, some friends.

My fingers are crossed.
 

chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
Returning to the matter of playing pool in NYC ...

... I've heard Amsterdam Billiards may open as early as next Wednesday. As I live just a few blocks away from there, I'm going to drop by to see how safe it is and if I'm sold, I might be inclined to hit a few balls for the first time in eleven months, At the very least, I'll have the privilege of saying hi to the exceptional staff that runs the room and, possibly, some friends.

My fingers are crossed.

We're not getting any younger, my friend. go now...next year and you'll be a year older, thus in more danger.

Live now while you can. I was in the pool hall last night with about 200 others, some masked, most not. It was so much fun, I about blew a gasket.

Dear Pool god,
If I die before I wake,
His money there, I had to take.
Awomen,


Jeff Livingston
 
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