Agreed, Monti, that in rack-your-own and rack-for-opponent events, the template has its place.
SJM at the 2022 International Open
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
Asylum, then citizenship...what a great boost he'd be to team USA in the Mosconi..
What a great question
I’m not answering for Stu, but I’d like to give my thoughts. And I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts who have been around long enough to have seen the changes in pool.
We need more questions like this here. Great content. Not arguments!
My thoughts
Slow walking your man to death was a tactic that some pro’s used to use as a tactic to get someone out of stroke or interfere with their rythem (I still can’t spell
). It worked well against some players.Some would slow walk in return and then races to 11 tool 2 hours. I saw 2 top players play a race to 15 on the barbox it took 4 hours 20 minutes. Went hill/hill. In Jamaica Joes in OKC about 7 years ago.
I’ve used that tactic gambling against people hopped up on dope, it was an effective tool then as well.
So slow play as a tactic is a real thing at B players and above speed I would guess. I’ve had guys slow walk me-if worked for them a few times until I became a stronger and more importantly experienced player and learned to deal with it. I’m guilty of using that tactic.
As far as modern era disciplined top speed champions, yes some seem seem a little slower, then I look others and they are fast.
I suppose overall disciplined PSR guys are a few seconds per shot slower. However the shot clock time controls are still long enough for any routine shot for any player that a real player-not a banger.
Where the issue comes into play is when there’s an extremely difficult shot or a close hit or something that requires time to consider and think through. When a player takes he extension and needs more time-that imo isn’t good for seeing the highest level pool. But the trade off to keep the game going is a small price to pay.
So I agree with and like the current shot clock controls. Also the “when you’re down on the shot” the clock can go to 0 is great as it doesn’t put pressure on when to pull the trigger.
Pools not perfect, the 5 must be orange, the rack and break rules are a never ending war. However I believe the current time controls are a good thing and just about right. It stops the slow walking tactic. Mission accomplished.
My thoughts,
Fatboy
Good post and, as you've noted, slow play as a tactical ploy is hardly new. You are also right that the shot clock solves the problem, but you've overlooked that even in the major championships, the shot clock is rarely in use.What a great question
I’m not answering for Stu, but I’d like to give my thoughts. And I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts who have been around long enough to have seen the changes in pool.
We need more questions like this here. Great content. Not arguments!
My thoughts
Slow walking your man to death was a tactic that some pro’s used to use as a tactic to get someone out of stroke or interfere with their rythem (I still can’t spell
Some would slow walk in return and then races to 11 tool 2 hours. I saw 2 top players play a race to 15 on the barbox it took 4 hours 20 minutes. Went hill/hill. In Jamaica Joes in OKC about 7 years ago.
I’ve used that tactic gambling against people hopped up on dope, it was an effective tool then as well.
So slow play as a tactic is a real thing at B players and above speed I would guess. I’ve had guys slow walk me-if worked for them a few times until I became a stronger and more importantly experienced player and learned to deal with it. I’m guilty of using that tactic.
As far as modern era disciplined top speed champions, yes some seem seem a little slower, then I look others and they are fast.
I suppose overall disciplined PSR guys are a few seconds per shot slower. However the shot clock time controls are still long enough for any routine shot for any player that a real player-not a banger.
Where the issue comes into play is when there’s an extremely difficult shot or a close hit or something that requires time to consider and think through. When a player takes he extension and needs more time-that imo isn’t good for seeing the highest level pool. But the trade off to keep the game going is a small price to pay.
So I agree with and like the current shot clock controls. Also the “when you’re down on the shot” the clock can go to 0 is great as it doesn’t put pressure on when to pull the trigger.
Pools not perfect, the 5 must be orange, the rack and break rules are a never ending war. However I believe the current time controls are a good thing and just about right. It stops the slow walking tactic. Mission accomplished.
My thoughts,
Fatboy
At the US Open 9-ball, all of Stage 1, which took three days. was contested without the shot clock, even the matches on the two Matchroom Live tables.
Of the 256 entrants, 32 didn't lose at all in Stage 1, 32 lost just once, and 192 lost twice. That's something like 400 matches played without the shot clock. Only the last 15 matches were played in the main arena and used the shot clock. In short, slow play was a very big issue at the US Open 9-ball.
At the International 9-ball, it was similar. The Bigfoot 10-footer used up the arena for the first three days of the 9-ball, so all the matches played on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday were on the outer tables without the shot clock. As I noted in the original post, Tuesday's session went until 2:00 AM and the lack of a shot clock was the reason.
The slow play problem is not only unresolved, but more prevalent than it ever has been in the major championships. Top event producers, no doubt, feel that the pro pool product they are selling is primarily the stream/TV product, so slow play on the outer tables is not a very serious matter to them, and I get that.
... but in stamping out slow play, mission NOT accomplished. In unstreamed matches, slow play is tolerated more than it has been since the end of the straight pool era.
It’s hard to run every match with a shot clock and yes I did over look that 100%. Good catch!
I think that “honest effort” to not slow-walk should be the rule in pool among pro’s and top events where the worst player is still pretty strong.
Maybe a solution is a time limit on the match-that’s a complex idea to discuss here and it could be abused by one player. Thus the “honest effort” thing comes back into the mix again.
One thing that irritates me is when it takes longer to rack the balls than it does to run out. They need a rack clock sometimes too! Which is why the time limit for a match idea is worth exploring. It might not work, not sure.
Thanks again Stu for your report. I always enjoy them and see you at Derby this year! Yay!!
Best
Eric
Great stat. If the average match had 17 racks, that means that the shot clock saved an average of about 36 minutes per match.
look if you dont get yourself out of stroke then it is very very beneficial to walk around and check every angle on your shot to find exactly where you want the cueball and figure out for the next few shots.
they ruined tournament and some cash game poker with people taking minutes or more to make every decision as its beneficial to figure out every possible situation before you act. but the end result is it ruins the experience.
it doesnt have to be to anger your opponent but that is another result as well.
the only way to stop slow play is for the tournament director to tell in advance if you slow play you will be dis- qualified and wont be invited back for future tournaments. you get two warnings and your done.
just dont invite a few of the slow players and all will fall in line as thats their living. if you are too slow at your job the boss doesnt put a clock on you. he tells you to keep up or your fired.
the shot clock punishes everyone and ruins the experience.
in cash games its easy to enforce. you just tell your opponent you wont play him or quit him if he is too slow. move that thinking to tournaments.
they ruined tournament and some cash game poker with people taking minutes or more to make every decision as its beneficial to figure out every possible situation before you act. but the end result is it ruins the experience.
it doesnt have to be to anger your opponent but that is another result as well.
the only way to stop slow play is for the tournament director to tell in advance if you slow play you will be dis- qualified and wont be invited back for future tournaments. you get two warnings and your done.
just dont invite a few of the slow players and all will fall in line as thats their living. if you are too slow at your job the boss doesnt put a clock on you. he tells you to keep up or your fired.
the shot clock punishes everyone and ruins the experience.
in cash games its easy to enforce. you just tell your opponent you wont play him or quit him if he is too slow. move that thinking to tournaments.
Then it's completely arbitrary. What is "slow"? Are players like Kaci and his ilk really going to be banned from tournaments over what is essentially the personal whim of a TD? Not going to happen.
"Top event producers, no doubt, feel that the pro pool product they are selling is primarily the stream/TV product, so slow play on the outer tables is not a very serious matter to them, and I get that."
This is the issue. Promoters are already stretched then. There are minimal short-term incentives for speeding up players by instituting shot clocks on slow matches. Until TDs get 1) more resources or 2) pushback/blowback then this problem is going to continue to fester.
I certainly wouldn't consider Filler and Sanchez-Ruiz slow players. Filler would normally be considered one of the quickest. Yet their matches against each other in both the International Bigfoot event and the International 9-Ball event (single-elimination stage) were the slowest paced. In the Bigfoot event, with a shot clock, they averaged 7.5 minutes per game -- slowest of the 15 matches. In the 9-Ball event (single elimination portion), without a shot clock, they were at 8.8 minutes per game -- tied for slowest of the 15 matches. In the Bigfoot match, they took at least one timeout and had a couple of lengthy safety battles. In the 9-Ball match, they took at least 2 timeouts.
that is why you have a t.d. he can make the decisions. if you are too slow he can tell you to speed it up. if you dont he can deal out what the penalty is. from say loss of a game to loss of the set to banishment from the tournament.
all games must move along quickly or they lose interest. and all participants are subject to the rules and decisions. and should also realize its for their own ultimate benefit.
a shot clock should be the last resort. but it is only a select few that are causing the situation. deal with them. as the shot clock punishes all. and the viewers.
all games must move along quickly or they lose interest. and all participants are subject to the rules and decisions. and should also realize its for their own ultimate benefit.
a shot clock should be the last resort. but it is only a select few that are causing the situation. deal with them. as the shot clock punishes all. and the viewers.
Exactly right.
Not to create work for you, but I wonder how average time per game correlates with the other stats you track? There are some obvious impacts (break and runs, missed shots, etc.) but I wonder if there is anything surprising in the data.
Matchroom has done a lot to grow our sport, but at what cost? I respect the fact that they have increased the number of professional events and upped the prize money available to the pros. That is all good imo. I will reserve my right to criticize them when I observe misguided decision making and outright favoritism. Current examples being the orange four ball and the purple five ball, plus the absence of Fedor Gorst from the MC.
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unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you view things. a private commercial enterprise gets to decide how it runs.
however with the pool scene the players can band together and have a big say in things. if they dont and accept whatever with complacency its all on them and they get what they sow.
and the viewers can vote with their dollars which they rarely do unless things are intolerable. so its on them also.
the business will be forced to listen and make the proper adjustments or decide to close down. you have to guess or judge how far to take it.
pool can grow with the bigger payouts coming from bigger entry fees and viewer dollars both live and streaming. it takes both sides to be firm and work toward it. if one totally dominates, all it does is make that side more money in the short term.
however with the pool scene the players can band together and have a big say in things. if they dont and accept whatever with complacency its all on them and they get what they sow.
and the viewers can vote with their dollars which they rarely do unless things are intolerable. so its on them also.
the business will be forced to listen and make the proper adjustments or decide to close down. you have to guess or judge how far to take it.
pool can grow with the bigger payouts coming from bigger entry fees and viewer dollars both live and streaming. it takes both sides to be firm and work toward it. if one totally dominates, all it does is make that side more money in the short term.
I think if we take all successes, failures, good & bad that MR has done and weigh and consider everything without going into great detail:
I think MR is a clear net positive for pro pool and for the fans watching world wide.
Now can MR improve? Yes! We all can for that matter. Will MR correct some of their mistakes. We can only hope so. Their opinions may vary from ours. That’s normal in this world-human nature.
I’m going to be at the Mcup this year. That’s exciting. I should wear a orange tux like the real Fat Man did.
Well, I think it would be quite a time-consuming task to investigate such correlations using a lot of data.
it's not a very high cost considering where pool was just 4-5 years ago. besides i don't remember the uproar when other promoters changed the 7-ball to turquoise blue with those chinese skittle balls.
favoritism is on the way out with the money based rankings - if you want to play invitation events, play well at the open events. i'd prefer all MC spots to be ranking based. i think team USA would be worse off this year that way, but in the long run it would be more fair.