SJM Slant on the 2017 Mosconi Cup

[sjm]

I’ve said this a thousand times and I’m going to say it again.. I’m going to keep it short but it’s not the coaches fault. Just like it wasn’t Mark Wilson’s fault the last 3 years. I truly believe that anyone of you reading this or commenting would have the same impact in the practice room as anyone. It’s up to the players to perform. I won’t say it’s absolutely useless because it could have like a very very small affect on a weak minded player or a person whose not feeling confident and the coach pumps him but that could also be a fellow player. Also I think the coach makes it look more respectable and more like a real sport.

Thanks for your input. As I posted in October, your omission from the team was a mistake.

You are right in observing that the burden of preparing and performing ultimately lies with the players. That said, though, an effective coach can help point the players in the right direction and can demand that they address weaknesses they've shown in Mosconi Cups past.

I do hope you'll be on the 2018 Team USA.

 

[sjm]

I just wanted to chime in a Little bit. THere has been some comments on Coach not being able to motivate the People enough....but to me that is looking at things completely wrong.
It is not the coaches Job to motivate....if you do not have the Motivation to be there and to win.....then you should probably not be there.

Coaches Job is to help you find the right Tools and help you utilize them for Maximum result. Those who dismiss coaches are, in my opinion, foolishly ignoring a Chance to improve themselves.
When we evaluate our own Performance, we always look at it through some colored glasses. We have our own biases, our own opinions...right or wrong. Coaches can help the Player by bringing in unbiased view and possibly help the Player to better understand things. Show me a Player that says "I know already everything" and I'll Show you a liar.
Most pool Players do not have a clue how the Body and mind physiologically works...they just know that they Play worse under some conditions (weaker Opponent, more important game, more audience, late at night, bad cushions) and just willingly accept it without ever trying to understand WHY it happens and then try to address that very Thing... This is what coaches can help...

My favorite example was this documentary i saw about how the brain works. They took a Football-Player (that is Soccer to you heathens) and attached some measurement device to his head to measure brain-activity during his execution of a specific freekick. Most of the activity in the brain took place in the part of the brain that is basically linked to stuff that you have learned before and you are just recalling the Actions from Memory. This Player had practised this shot probably thousands of times before. Then they told the Player that now he had to shoot the same shot, but if he makes it, he will get 1,000$, should he miss it...he will have to pay 1,000$.
Suddenly the brain-patterns where completely different. The most active part of the brain was actually the part responsible for learning new things. So basically....he knew he had done the shot thousands of times, but someone forgot to tell his brain....and his Body was reacting like he had never done the shot before.
This is just one of the things that happen under pressure.
This is also just one of those things that Player might not realise, but Coach might....Coach might then also have the Tools necessary to address the issue. How does one deal with pressure for example...because you have to deal with it or it will become this Monster in the back of the head and easily turn worse.

I remember this one session we had at the Pool-bootcamp with Johan (Ruijsink) and Alex (Lely), when they were talking about exactly this. I cannot remember exactly what was said but the essence was it that when you are on the table and there is some external factor that is bothering you...whether it is the noise of the crowd, a waiter Walking by, sharking from the Opponent...whatever....you have to deal with it there and then. If you just try to ignore it....it WILL nag at you all the time. It is like me saying "Do NOT think of a pink elephant!!" and I guarantee you that this is exactly the Image that flashed in your head.
Some of the techniques might involve "look at it....decide if it is important to you at this Moment....if not...accept it...and move on". It could be that you are down for a shot...and someone walks through your line of aim on the Background....just get up...chalk your cue again and reset your stance... Or the most famous one of the last couple of weeks....What Joshua Filler did in his game...that looked to me like a textbook example of a learned technique to deal with pressure. He got to the Point where the pressure was starting to be too much to execute the shots he wanted to.....so he got up.....walked to his chair...sat down....took a sip of water....and moved on....to win the set and the game in the end as well.

So I do not believe it is coaches Job to tell you what you are working for or remind you of the rewards...this is something that Needs to come from yourself. The Coach can help you by identifying things you might not notice yourself and give you ideas on how to deal with them. In the end it is you that has to do the work....the Coach is not going to shoot the shot for you...but he can help create the conditions where you can.

ok...enough rambling....

Cheers,
Kimmo

Great post. Both insightful and educational!

 

[sjm]

Great trip report. Thanks for sharing!

I think we lost because the greatest patriot of American pool wasn't there cheering---- you! Perhaps the forum should start a fund to send you to the next one of these.

It is amazing that two veterans of the tournament trail like you and me have never met, but I hope the day will come.

You know, JAM, I think that my trip reports, which include some of the social things on the periphery of events were inspired by some of the tournament trip reports you used to file on our forum.

 

[sjm]

I omitted from my post that Matchroom provided a superb program to the attendees that profiled each player, including:

a) Year of the player's Mosconi debut
b) Current age
c) Hometown
d) Biggest titles won
e) Mosconi Cups won and Mosconi Cups competed for
f) Singles matches won and singles matches played
g) Doubles matches won and doubles matches played

I found this information to be very valuable and I'm keeping the program as a souvenir.

 

[Cuebuddy]

I think we lost because the greatest patriot of American pool wasn't there cheering---- you! Perhaps the forum should start a fund to send you to the next one of these.

It is amazing that two veterans of the tournament trail like you and me have never met, but I hope the day will come.

You know, JAM, I think that my trip reports, which include some of the social things on the periphery of events were inspired by some of the tournament trip reports you used to file on our forum.

Thanks for the trip report and the Billiard lessons Stu! It is always a pleasure. That would be cool if Jam and that one guy she hangs out with would show up for one of these events. We could definitely use the help cheering and Jennie and Keith would certainly have a good time after hours.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Thanks for the report, Stu.
Always great to see your notes on the aspects of the Mosconi.

This was a tough one. I was very optimistic after following team USA in their match play against team Russia during the run-up to the Mosconi Cup.
Cory Deuel played well on that trip in place of Skylar, who missed that trip due to family matters. I felt Corey should have been kept on the team (having narrowly missed qualifying in points for the year, but his play in Russia and the US open showed me he was in good form).
No offense to Skylar but Johann doesn't get much time with the team in full and every week is necessary, that trip was important.

Your profound statement that European pool is just turning out massively skilled players is very very true.

So I'm waiting for one or more of the American professionals to pickup and make the move up Europe (preferably the Netherlands or Poland) and play on the Euro tour, while training under the coaching of the local pool clubs.

I understand there is money and funding issues, but we've heard tell before of American players taking sabbaticals to the Philippines to learn in the temple of hardcore pool gambling. So it's not impossible for a player like Billy or Skylar or Justin to dive into, not just, the European pool tour scene, but the daily European coaching/training grind that turns out so many skilled players.

 

[9andout]

Great write up.
I think Shane really took the heat off Sky.
Cuebuddy and John were in my row! Lol
I was at Griff's Mon and Thurs. Sorry I missed you guys.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I’ve said this a thousand times and I’m going to say it again.. I’m going to keep it short but it’s not the coaches fault. Just like it wasn’t Mark Wilson’s fault the last 3 years. I truly believe that anyone of you reading this or commenting would have the same impact in the practice room as anyone. It’s up to the players to perform. I won’t say it’s absolutely useless because it could have like a very very small affect on a weak minded player or a person whose not feeling confident and the coach pumps him but that could also be a fellow player. Also I think the coach makes it look more respectable and more like a real sport.

Justin, I know you frequent this board and your input is always welcomed and I've learned a lot from it.

Your views on the traveling to tournaments and the expense and the lack of payouts makes compete fiscal sense. I don't think anyone can argue with you in terms of US players have a tough time on the road.

In my post above, I advocated for a high calibre player like yourself to go to Europe and train under a coach (johan for example) while playing on the Euro tour (even if for one or two stops).

I believe this is possible but not by yourself. The American pool scene has to learn to network in order to advance against the rest of the world. I have some thoughts in regards to how we as a community can network together to get players like yourself, not just qualified to earn a spot on the US team by playing in the necessary tournaments, but maybe even reach across the Atlantic to make it possible to train in Europe without breaking the bank.

If interested, send me a PM. We are only pool players and fans apart, but together I believe we can create an environment to where the stress of the road can be somewhat relieved, and thus the learning and performance for professional players can increase.

(Stu, sorry for hijacking the thread and going a bit off topic here)

 

[sjm]

Thanks for the trip report and the Billiard lessons Stu! It is always a pleasure.

The real beneficiary of my three cushion tips was me, as when we played as teammates, you were the star of the show. Great playing!

 

[sjm]

Justin, I know you frequent this board and your input is always welcomed and I've learned a lot from it.

Your views on the traveling to tournaments and the expense and the lack of payouts makes compete fiscal sense. I don't think anyone can argue with you in terms of US players have a tough time on the road.

In my post above, I advocated for a high calibre player like yourself to go to Europe and train under a coach (johan for example) while playing on the Euro tour (even if for one or two stops).

I believe this is possible but not by yourself. The American pool scene has to learn to network in order to advance against the rest of the world. I have some thoughts in regards to how we as a community can network together to get players like yourself, not just qualified to earn a spot on the US team by playing in the necessary tournaments, but maybe even reach across the Atlantic to make it possible to train in Europe without breaking the bank.

If interested, send me a PM. We are only pool players and fans apart, but together I believe we can create an environment to where the stress of the road can be somewhat relieved, and thus the learning and performance for professional players can increase.

(Stu, sorry for hijacking the thread and going a bit off topic here)

I'm not buying the argument that one must travel to Europe or Asia to build one's competitive pedigree. After all, Jayson Shaw's meteroic rise came as much from playing in Joss Tour events as anything else. Oscar Dominguez has also put together a solid tour on the west coast that offers Americans a good chance for development. Players like Immonen and Appleton also built their world championship pedigrees chiefly on American soil and Klenti Kaci's relocation to New York has already paid big dividends. I'm also not buying that America lacks the coaches that can get the job done.

Don't overlook that the top stars living in Europe have been playing the WPA events for years and have, consequently, built their pedigree by frequently competing against the most elite players in the world. For years, most of the top Americans have been skipping these events and American pool has paid a price.

Finally, it should be noted that Eurotour events have even lower payouts than American events. The European championships, in fact, are for the titles only, with no prizes paid. Making ends meet financially is no easier in Europe than here.

 

[sjm]

If you could pick the players and coach for next year's MC, what, if any, changes would you make?

Assuming he wants to work hard at it, I'd pick Nick Varner as coach, the greatest tactician in the history of American pool.

Not sure which players I'd pick, but I'd never leave out the guy who was the best all-around player on the 2016 team, Justin Bergman.

 

[sjm]

Great write up.
I think Shane really took the heat off Sky.
Cuebuddy and John were in my row! Lol
I was at Griff's Mon and Thurs. Sorry I missed you guys.

Will you be at the Derby? If so, we'll catch up there.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I'm not buying the argument that one must travel to Europe or Asia to build one's competitive pedigree. After all, Jayson Shaw's meteroic rise came as much from playing in Joss Tour events as anything else. Oscar Dominguez has also put together a solid tour on the west coast that offers Americans a good chance for development. Players like Immonen and Appleton also built their world championship pedigrees chiefly on American soil and Klenti Kaci's relocation to New York has already paid big dividends. I'm also not buying that America lacks the coaches that can get the job done.

Don't overlook that the top stars living in Europe have been playing the WPA events for years and have, consequently, built their pedigree by frequently competing against the most elite players in the world. For years, most of the top Americans have been skipping these events and American pool has paid a price.

Finally, it should be noted that Eurotour events have even lower payouts than American events. The European championships, in fact, are for the titles only, with no prizes paid. Making ends meet financially is no easier in Europe than here.

The euro stars that have moved here had their roots in European training.
From what I've observed, the Europeans stress on drills and fundamentals from the ground up. Drills but also the approach to the game. But then in looking at the extreme young pool of talent. From the Russians like Dudanets and Gorst (billiard brothers YouTube channel), to the Fillers and Kaci's...all products of that PAT training or similar environment.

All the live-in-America Euro players you mentioned got their start in Europe and in that coached environment. Sure the experience and fruition of those skills, which were going to come around, came to fruition while they lived here, but I think they would've rose up living there too.

A pre USA young Jayson taking the English 8 ball by storm....https://youtu.be/x9HPtyufEeg but he played on the Euro tour a couple of years ago and I thought it really helped his game. A year later he wins the us open.

A young Thorsten on the PAT training videos with coach Eckert https://youtu.be/EsGFc0puuBI

Darren in his house in Pennsylvania, but working on drills that are extremely complex...
https://youtu.be/cgEZpg2swKI

I suppose the correlation is Euro players like Kaci will move to America and excel, but it's not from playing on the joss tour. He has the necessary building blocks on which to build the foundation.
I still agree with your assessment that U.S.pool is on dire straits yet it can be turned around. The environment needs to change. Right now leaving the Mosconi Cup and playing in the bar table championships is not the environment that will produce results in my opinion.

 

[sjm]

The euro stars that have moved here had their roots in European training.
From what I've observed, the Europeans stress on drills and fundamentals from the ground up. Drills but also the approach to the game. But then in looking at the extreme young pool of talent. From the Russians like Dudanets and Gorst (billiard brothers YouTube channel), to the Fillers and Kaci's...all products of that PAT training or similar environment.

All the live-in-America Euro players you mentioned got their start in Europe and in that coached environment. Sure the experience and fruition of those skills, which were going to come around, came to fruition while they lived here, but I think they would've rose up living there too.

A pre USA young Jayson taking the English 8 ball by storm....https://youtu.be/x9HPtyufEeg but he played on the Euro tour a couple of years ago and I thought it really helped his game. A year later he wins the us open.

A young Thorsten on the PAT training videos with coach Eckert https://youtu.be/EsGFc0puuBI

Darren in his house in Pennsylvania, but working on drills that are extremely complex...
https://youtu.be/cgEZpg2swKI

I suppose the correlation is Euro players like Kaci will move to America and excel, but it's not from playing on the joss tour. He has the necessary building blocks on which to build the foundation.
I still agree with your assessment that U.S.pool is on dire straits yet it can be turned around. The environment needs to change. Right now leaving the Mosconi Cup and playing in the bar table championships is not the environment that will produce results in my opinion.

Agreed, the Europeans have better development habits, but many haven't realized their full potential until they've come here. Also agreed that the trend toward bar table tourneys has weakened the pedigree of American pros. In the end, however, it's all about commitment and work ethic. They've got it and we don't. We can get it without crossing the Atlantic if we want it bad enough.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Agreed, the Europeans have better development habits, but many haven't realized their full potential until they've come here. Also agreed that the trend toward bar table tourneys has weakened the pedigree of American pros. In the end, however, it's all about commitment and work ethic. They've got it and we don't. We can get it without crossing the Atlantic if we want it bad enough.

Absolutely, Stu. Commitment and work ethic knows no borders.
I agree.

 

[snucar]

They've got it and we don't. We can get it without crossing the Atlantic if we want it bad enough.

The strong will won't cut it I'm afraid and SVB is the living proof of that. You won't find a more dedicated player than him in the whole country, but even him has struggled. Crossing the Atlantic is inevitable in my opinion. Instead of throwing money to the random Johan Ruijsink of the situation, I would suggest to collect that money, individuate two youngsters (no more than 21 years old) who you most believe they have the talent to become great players, make sure they're not bums and they're not infected by the same ol' and tired US pool mentality and sent them over to Europe for a couple of years to do the Eurotour circuit and various other Opens across the continent. Make them feel responsible of the whole project though, this ain't tourism. European pool would never achieve what it has if the likes of Ralf, Mika etc hadn't traveled so much over the States back in the day to learn from the best. Stop being stubborn and lose that "my way or the highway" crap attitude and embrace the current situation. Eventually, it will pay wonders! Stop expecting the Epiphany, it will never come!

 

[9andout]

Will you be at the Derby? If so, we'll catch up there.

Unfortunately not. Still haven't made it there.
Probably US Open in VA though.

 

[skip100]

Are there any potential Klenti Kacis or Joshua Fillers in US pool at the moment? In other words, players age 16-22 who have world class talent and are willing to undergo a professional training regimen and travel the world playing competitive pool against the best?

Once someone hits their mid 20s it's probably too late because their fundamentals are baked in.

 

[sjm]

Are there any potential Klenti Kacis or Joshua Fillers in US pool at the moment? In other words, players age 16-22 who have world class talent and are willing to undergo a professional training regimen and travel the world playing competitive pool against the best?

Once someone hits their mid 20s it's probably too late because their fundamentals are baked in.

One that comes to mind is Fedor Gorst of Russia, a rising star who is still a teenager. Gorst took Pagulayan to the double hill at the 2016 Derby City 9-ball event and played admirably in the 2017 Big Foot Challenge. Definitely a player to watch.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Agreed, the Europeans have better development habits, but many haven't realized their full potential until they've come here. Also agreed that the trend toward bar table tourneys has weakened the pedigree of American pros. In the end, however, it's all about commitment and work ethic. They've got it and we don't. We can get it without crossing the Atlantic if we want it bad enough.

North America needs a regular tour on the level of the Eurotour, something that draws all of the top players in North America on a semi-regular basis. Pool is just way too fractured, possibly due to the size of both Canada and the US. On any given weekend you have a couple of top players in one regional event, two or three more in another, so on and so forth.

Training habits need to structured with proper coaches. That last part is hard, because who will pay these coaches? Regardless, I posted a video in another thread of a row of top snooker players practising before their matches. None of them were spreading the balls around randomly. All of them were doing some routine or another.

Do any of the top pros in the US practice together? Many of the top snooker players have regular practice matches with each other, sometimes playing for no more than $15 or the table time.