Also regarding the short races and round robin format. I don’t this this is a format to be modeled for other events. I think it fits great for this as a unique stand-alone spectacle.
SJM Thoughts on Matchroom's New Event
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
I agree with most of the things that you said if not all of the points.
Only thing I want to add is, why do the round-robin then only to make the top 4 play again for semis and finals, I still don't think this make sense. I mean the top-finisher can lose easily on the semis in a race to 5, so why bother the round-robin in the first place.
Another thing that I would like to mention is the fairness of some players who joined early on group1, and how about the other ones that only joined for 1-chance in group6 day6? even if they are in the top4 they cannot continue.
Exmaple Albin got top finisher in most days so he rejoined and rejoined and rejoined.....but the other guys who joined day5 and day6 arent that lucky, what gives? I mean if I am a player I want to join in group 1 to have the most chances, I still don't understand it...The guys who joined Day 6 must not have good connections amongs the elites or something
Only thing I want to add is, why do the round-robin then only to make the top 4 play again for semis and finals, I still don't think this make sense. I mean the top-finisher can lose easily on the semis in a race to 5, so why bother the round-robin in the first place.
Another thing that I would like to mention is the fairness of some players who joined early on group1, and how about the other ones that only joined for 1-chance in group6 day6? even if they are in the top4 they cannot continue.
Exmaple Albin got top finisher in most days so he rejoined and rejoined and rejoined.....but the other guys who joined day5 and day6 arent that lucky, what gives? I mean if I am a player I want to join in group 1 to have the most chances, I still don't understand it...The guys who joined Day 6 must not have good connections amongs the elites or something
I liked the round robin. It gave every player a chance to play each of the others. It winnows out the bottom three players, and then the playoff settles who is the best player that day. I think there should have been a cash prize for the round robin winners in addition to the cash prizes for the playoff winners.
I think the normal routine is that the top-ranked players start off in group 1, and as they get winnowed down, lesser ranked players get their chance. They didn't do that here, with Kazakis and Grabe both being 800+ players and joining late, but that may have just been a wrinkle this time. Also, as the better ranked players win and go to the winners group, it makes it easier (?) for the remaining players, so successive groups might not be as tough.
The withdrawal of Shaw, SVB, Woodward, and Gorst probably threw a little wrench in the works for how that was supposed to work, but those kinds of details will probably be better defined next time.
A good event, and definitely engaging. I was surprised at how captivated i became.
Great stuff here. Thanks for sharing this info.
They did say that the goal in the future is to better seed the events, so top-ranked players start earlier and get more chances.I agree with most of the things that you said if not all of the points.
Only thing I want to add is, why do the round-robin then only to make the top 4 play again for semis and finals, I still don't think this make sense. I mean the top-finisher can lose easily on the semis in a race to 5, so why bother the round-robin in the first place.
Another thing that I would like to mention is the fairness of some players who joined early on group1, and how about the other ones that only joined for 1-chance in group6 day6? even if they are in the top4 they cannot continue.
Exmaple Albin got top finisher in most days so he rejoined and rejoined and rejoined.....but the other guys who joined day5 and day6 arent that lucky, what gives? I mean if I am a player I want to join in group 1 to have the most chances, I still don't understand it...The guys who joined Day 6 must not have good connections amongs the elites or something
One thing about comparisons of this event to double elimination is that they aren’t perfect either. In a double elimination tournament, if you have two bad matches you’re out. In this, everyone is guaranteed to play n-1 matches per group. In addition, people constantly complain about getting a tough draw in an elimination tournament, whereas in this you play everyone in your group.
I agree with the first half of the first paragraph, then I disagree with the other half.
The round-robin does give the players to play each other and the ranks at the end of the day will show you the most consistent player, however then the semis and finals are just a luck-factor.
So you're telling me that the 4th ranked player in one of the groups round-robin is the best player? because that what happened in some of the days where in round-robin the guy who was 4th in place got lucky in semis/finals with breaks and layouts and won the day. I personally believe that the semis-final are not good.
I think it's important to keep in mind this was intended to be a different format than Open Championships. Somewhat meaningless pool play is what a regular season in all sports, from Little League to Major Leagues, looks like. This 9-ball league was completed in 1 week! I think Matchroom did a great job holding our limited attention, throughout the week. And they gave us something to watch, when there was little else available.
I also think it is contradictory to applaud the inclusion of female players then condemn a less than elite field.
I do agree there is room for improvement and believe Matchroom will give us an improved product, if they continue down the league path. My only criticism is in the handling of the sponsor patch issue. It seems that could have been addressed and settled, without being aired in public, by both sides involved.
I also think it is contradictory to applaud the inclusion of female players then condemn a less than elite field.
I do agree there is room for improvement and believe Matchroom will give us an improved product, if they continue down the league path. My only criticism is in the handling of the sponsor patch issue. It seems that could have been addressed and settled, without being aired in public, by both sides involved.
I think there's a lot of luck in races to five generally. A number of the round robin matches went one way due to a roll. Maybe that's a consequence of having so many good players who can run out from many positions.
You're unlikely to reduce luck without longer races.
If you're in the playoff, you have to get lucky twice maybe.
I agree that there are weird effects in this type of match, but double-elimination tournaments have the same thing.
Repeating what I posted in another thread:
My kudos go to commentators Boyes and McMullan for this event, particularly Michael McMullan. I don't know whether it was his own research or material given to him by Matchroom, but I can't remember any pool commentator being as well prepared as McMullan was with information about the players and their past accomplishments. He also provided accurate info, including stats, about the on-going matches, and asked good questions of the players when they were his co-commentators. Good-humored, articulate, and with a pleasant voice -- fine job, Michael McMullan.
Matt_H
New member
I really enjoyed this format and believe that CLP could be a Matchroom staple with a few tweaks.
Ref errors: yes, Viv dropped the ball in that Gomes/Ouschan game. She's a great 8 ball ref and also part of the referee team on the GB9 ball tour. She'll come good in future events.
The balls: I'm slightly surprised that Predator didn't use their own ball set for this event. Maybe it's due to matchroom's relationship with aramith. Either way, the Black sets need to be ditched in favour of either the Preds or the other Aramith flagship set.
Play-off: everyone knows the format prior to signing up. It has to be frustrating to advance through the league unbeaten, only to be denied by someone who qualified with 3 losses. However, the NFL uses a similar method to determine its annual champion. Just ask the 18-1 New England Patriots from super bowl XLII.
Multiple qualifying attempts: Ouschan provided the (almost) perfect story. He looked uncomfortable, drained and disinterested throughout. Then, he got his second wind as he qualified through heat 6 and went on to become the inaugural champion. However, why was he allowed 6 opportunities to qualify? Could matchroom not give players a maximum of 2 or 3 opportunities to advance? This would then eliminate the "7th place goes home" rule but surely reduce the advantage that some players have over their rivals while giving the others a multiple chances to earn prize money. It could even give Matchroom the chance to increase the size of the field.
Ref errors: yes, Viv dropped the ball in that Gomes/Ouschan game. She's a great 8 ball ref and also part of the referee team on the GB9 ball tour. She'll come good in future events.
The balls: I'm slightly surprised that Predator didn't use their own ball set for this event. Maybe it's due to matchroom's relationship with aramith. Either way, the Black sets need to be ditched in favour of either the Preds or the other Aramith flagship set.
Play-off: everyone knows the format prior to signing up. It has to be frustrating to advance through the league unbeaten, only to be denied by someone who qualified with 3 losses. However, the NFL uses a similar method to determine its annual champion. Just ask the 18-1 New England Patriots from super bowl XLII.
Multiple qualifying attempts: Ouschan provided the (almost) perfect story. He looked uncomfortable, drained and disinterested throughout. Then, he got his second wind as he qualified through heat 6 and went on to become the inaugural champion. However, why was he allowed 6 opportunities to qualify? Could matchroom not give players a maximum of 2 or 3 opportunities to advance? This would then eliminate the "7th place goes home" rule but surely reduce the advantage that some players have over their rivals while giving the others a multiple chances to earn prize money. It could even give Matchroom the chance to increase the size of the field.
On the matter of the ball set, my only problem is with the five ball being purple. The four ball was purple for over a century, so confusion is inevitable. Similarly, a green traffic light has had the same meaning to a motorist for a century. Imagine telling motorists that a green traffic light no longer means that they can proceed, but instead means they must stop. They'd adjust eventually, but there would be some pain along the way, so what's the point of making the change?
Good point - Why are the 6 specific colors for snooker balls (in addition to the reds) forbidden to be changed for centuries, yet obviously this is not the case for pool ball colors remaining even remotely the same? And this all seems to have happened in the last few years.
Traditional colors hadn’t fared well in the old SD ESPN days. Now with HD, that’s not needed for TVs but unfortunately phones still suck a bit.
Matchroom was clueless (about this) enough to think TV balls are standard. They actually thought the 4 was pink and that purple was a fair game color. They are detached from what pool looks like played in bars and pool halls across the world. They just needed a purple 4 and to do something with the orange 5, like make it ridiculously vibrant (or whatever tweak that screen tested well). Instead they made a ball set that is unintuitive and I’m shocked Aramith wasn’t a good adviser and could warn how big of a mistake it was. But now pride, maybe a contract, and an unsold overstock likely has us where we are now.
But I assume your question was rhetorical and you already knew the answer. I just wanted to soapbox a bit on a really dumb thing for Matchroom to keep double-downing on.
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Well said. I've often taken note of just how little pool commentators seem to know about past player performances. McMullan was, indeed, well prepared, and he did offer some great stats.
Should I be surprised that you were most taken by the guy who did the best job with the stats (McMullan) and that I was most taken with the guy who clearly offered the best analysis of the play itself (Lely)? It kind of makes sense!
Agree. Despite the Championship League in snooker, the World Championship and the UK Championship remain single elimination. I expect Matchroom to adopt a similar approach with the pool World Championship and US Open (the 2019 version retained double elimination until the final 16, and also retained winner breaks - and despite me favoring alternate break I like this as a characteristic of one of the two either/or tournaments that any pro would be over the moon to win just once).
I always tried to do both. I was a nut on stats; the significance money wise of each match, who the winner would play next, would the loser be out or on the one loss side, their past history against each other, what the brackets looked like and who would be playing next, all the prize money positions (what was at stake), past winners of the event, etc.
My capsule summary of this event (I hesitate to call it a tournament) is that it was something totally new in the Pool arena, thus it was an experiment as much as anything else. Some parts of it worked and others didn't. A true Round Robin, where perhaps the top two from each group moved on would have been far more fair to all the participants and just as compelling to watch. The actual competition was first rate with many good matches. It would have been nice to see more of the great Asian players involved and I'm not quite sure why they weren't. Not all of them are constrained by the Pandemic from traveling. Several of the top Filipino players are here in the USA currently. That said, all the players who did compete in this first event were top level players. Perhaps next time around the sponsorship issues can be worked out so that premier players like Shane, Filler and Gorst are included. That was the biggest snafu of all in this event and it could have been avoided.
As for the choice of balls - UGH! There is a good reason that pool has used traditional colors for so many decades. IT WORKS!! Shame on Aramith for trying to change that. Those balls are butt ugly imo. I would only say this to the promoters of the event. Of course make the event profitable so that it can continue, but do service to the integrity of the sport. Do not bastardize the game for a few extra dollars.
I'm glad to see more pool events being shown on TV and streaming services. The more exposure the players (and the game) get can only lead to bigger and better things. That was the biggest plus imo, the widespread coverage of the event. Creating "stars" is what builds a sport. So give these guys all the air time possible! I like that's it's on Youtube for the world to see. If it can happen to Cornhole, why not a real sport that takes skill and knowledge to play!
filler got the virus
the problem with a true round robin is that with 7 players, in the last match some of them will have nothing to play for, no reason to win. i didn't understand the point with this format until the last match of the last session where albin played niels and albin needed the win and niels needed to win 5-0. even that was tense.
How about lets ask Aramith to make these colors.
One - blue
Two - Yellow
Three - Orange
Four - Red
Ofcourse I am being sarcastic here, although it may not sound funny because it isn't, we want the original colors!!! please, in the past they try to change colors due to low quality cameras but now adays everyone is streaming HD, we can 100% see the colors and distinguish them.
For the 4-ball it can be pink or purple we got used to both, although I love purple myself, (All original colors is my thing).
Can't we all voice our concern to aramith in facebook? I think nobody reads azb, so our concerns are not seen.
One - blue
Two - Yellow
Three - Orange
Four - Red
Ofcourse I am being sarcastic here, although it may not sound funny because it isn't, we want the original colors!!! please, in the past they try to change colors due to low quality cameras but now adays everyone is streaming HD, we can 100% see the colors and distinguish them.
For the 4-ball it can be pink or purple we got used to both, although I love purple myself, (All original colors is my thing).
Can't we all voice our concern to aramith in facebook? I think nobody reads azb, so our concerns are not seen.