Skid

Interesting theory on skids/kicks found on talksnooker.com

Quoting poster Jamesp, see the whole thread at http://www.talksnooker.com/showthread.php?t=156

"I have been doing some experiments under instruction from somebody who has devoted a lot of time to the kick theory.

This person believes that the balls self lubricate, the balls have and produce an 'oil' and if this isn't present upon contact then a kick will occur.

This person also thinks that most kicks are caused by this 'oil' inbalance, although at the same time aknowledges that some kicks are caused by chalk and bad technique.

He got me to do the following experiments without telling me his theory and reported back the findings, you may want to try these yourselves and see what you think.

Get two snooker balls, Aramith or super christallite, wash them both in tepid water with mild soap, leave them to dry in an airing cupboard for half an hour or so, try not to handle the balls and then get a piece of plate glass or a fairly high quality mirror, ideally with edges to stop the balls from rolling off, clean the glass or mirror with windowlene or such like.

Then put the two balls on the glass or mirror and let them roll around at randon by gently tilting the glass or mirror, after you have done this have a close look at the glass or mirror under a light, you may need to tilt the mirror to get it in the right light to see the results.

You will probably find as I did that the balls left tiny tracks where they had been, I think you have to ask yourself this question, why would a washed and dry snooker ball leave a trail behind it? I believe this is the oil, this is why you have to leave the balls half an hour or so they can regenerate any oil lost in the washing process.

To prove this further, try this, get the two snooker balls and with a lateral movement slide them gently together in exactly the same spot, you should find it is quite smooth to start with and after about 10 or so slides you should find that the contact becomes not so smooth and if you keep sliding the same spot eventually you won't be able to move the balls at all, this is I suspect as a result of the sliding breaking down the oil structure and exposing the raw plastic.

To prove this further again, buy a small bottle of Acetone (cost about £1) wipe the surface of the balls with Acetone, this will remove any oil on the surface, you will find when trying to slide the balls together that they will feel like granite!

leave the balls for half and hour or so and then try sliding them together again, you will now find they are smooth again, this is because the balls self lubricate and regenerate the oil needed for a good contact.

When talking about oil on the balls I am not talking about droplets or anything you can see, but molecules of oil.

This could also help to explain why you get more kicks on TV than generally in clubs.

On TV they use a new cloth, and also replace the cloth at the semi final stage, with a new cloth you tend to get more kicks as the cloth strips the balls of their oil more than a used cloth does, as with the 'mirror' test the balls leave a trail of oil on the cloth, so with a used cloth it helps the balls keep their oil in a smiliar way this person does with the inpregnated cloth, especially for example where the colours are potted from their spots and take a natural line which they have been on many times, this part of the cloth will have plenty of oil on and help lubricate the ball.

Some of you may have noticed that when you get a new cloth at your club you get more kicks?

Also try this,

Without using any chalk, keep potting the black off its spot and see how long it is before the kicks start, if it is a well used cloth you might not get any kicks, in this case do the same in a area of the table that the balls don't go on much, ie like the baulk area, keep potting the same ball and see how long it takes before the kicks occur.

Also if you buy a brand new set of Tournament Champion Aramith (which I just have), you will find that the balls are coated in some way, basically to make them look shiny and new in the box.

When I did the mirror test, the balls left no trail whatsoever, I assume the coating prevents the oil being present until it is worn off.

I did the mirror test again after washing them and leaving them for half an hour to dry off, and the 'oil' tracks where present again.

Also the contacts you get from the balls are not crisp until you remove this coating.

I suggest that anyone who buys a new set to wash them first before you play with them."
 
Nott said:
Interesting theory on skids/kicks found on talksnooker.com

Quoting poster Jamesp, see the whole thread at http://www.talksnooker.com/showthread.php?t=156

"I have been doing some experiments under instruction from somebody who has devoted a lot of time to the kick theory.

This person believes that the balls self lubricate, the balls have and produce an 'oil' and if this isn't present upon contact then a kick will occur.

This person also thinks that most kicks are caused by this 'oil' inbalance, although at the same time aknowledges that some kicks are caused by chalk and bad technique.
He got me to do the following experiments without telling me his theory and reported back the findings, you may want to try these yourselves and see what you think.

"
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Paul Mon,

If you remember yesterday when I spoke with Tom, your playing partner, I had mentioned anything including oils can cause skid. It must be an imbalance of oils or any differences on the surface of the OB and CB.

Funny though, when I was playing yesterday I had only one skid (mostly because I add a bit of speed to the shot which will help negate skid somewhat). I missed the shot a bit, but the SKID cause the ball to travel on-line and pocket. Amazing, a skid was favorable.

Anyway I think there are lots of causes including what you mentioned about BJ's comments, anything that causes a collection of particles, oils and as you said yesterday, even small chips on balls can be collectors.

Might want to put SlipStic Conditioner on the balls for a test, DuPont told me that this formulation will vastly reduce slices and hooks if you put it on a golf club face.

Good post Paul and lots of good stuff here.
 
There is another long thread on this subject. Interesting that the snookertalk article is the opposite to the bbc study that suggested that oils in the cloth cause kicks and NOT take away oil.

Either way I am more inclined to believe that kicks are caused in some way by oil on the balls than by chalk. Apparently oils used in cloths is a more modern production technique which would explain why it wasn't so frequent years ago. It would also explain why we see a significant amount more kicks on TV matches (eg new cloth and change regularly).

The reason why am not convinced that chalk is the cause are many.
- I have seen kicks occur hundreds of times right after the referee has cleaned the balls of all chalk.
- I have seen experiments that show kicks occurring without any chalk and the cue ball and then no kicks occur when the cue ball is smothered in chalk.
- The same amount of chalk is used no matter where a player plays yet a significant amount more kicks happen under TV conditions, something other than chalk must be the cause of this.

A fascinating subject and amazing that nobody has still conclusively nailed the cause.
 
TheOne said:
There is another long thread on this subject. Interesting that the snookertalk article is the opposite to the bbc study that suggested that oils in the cloth cause kicks and NOT take away oil.

Either way I am more inclined to believe that kicks are caused in some way by oil on the balls than by chalk. Apparently oils used in cloths is a more modern production technique which would explain why it wasn't so frequent years ago. It would also explain why we see a significant amount more kicks on TV matches (eg new cloth and change regularly).

The reason why am not convinced that chalk is the cause are many.
- I have seen kicks occur hundreds of times right after the referee has cleaned the balls of all chalk.
- I have seen experiments that show kicks occurring without any chalk and the cue ball and then no kicks occur when the cue ball is smothered in chalk.
- The same amount of chalk is used no matter where a player plays yet a significant amount more kicks happen under TV conditions, something other than chalk must be the cause of this.

A fascinating subject and amazing that nobody has still conclusively nailed the cause.
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Yes, new cloth always seems to produce more skids.
 
If I was shooting someone and they told me they just missed that shot because of skid, I would laugh at them. A miss is a miss, blame it on whatever you like.
 
pete lafond said:
Paul Mon,

Might want to put SlipStic Conditioner on the balls for a test, DuPont told me that this formulation will vastly reduce slices and hooks if you put it on a golf club face.

QUOTE]

I remember years ago Lee Trevino was caught on film wiping a golf ball on his forehead to pick up a little grease. Known hustlers supposedly carry vaseoline in their golf bags for the same purpose. Both these tactics are definite no-no's in golf.
Click to expand...
 
I remember watching a video on a test made by Steve Davis and some referee on the subject of skid (kick). They had a table with brand new cloth and brand new balls, the balls were cleaned with acetone and when they rolled the balls (didn't hit them with a cue) together, they got massive skids almost every time. To me it proves that skid is not caused by a chalk residue or a piece of dirt between the contact areas but something completely different.

This self-lubrication theory is interesting, because this would suggest, that absolutely clean balls would produce more skids than self-lubricated balls. Quote from Nott's post: "leave the balls for half and hour or so and then try sliding them together again, you will now find they are smooth again, this is because the balls self lubricate and regenerate the oil needed for a good contact." This theory supports the results of the test above.

Here's a related article which is about skids from electrostatic viewpoint: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wolfson/news/news-item5.shtml
 
mjantti said:
To me it proves that skid is not caused by a chalk residue or a piece of dirt between the contact areas but something completely different.
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I'm pleased you saw that too mj, I shared those findings on this board at the time but sadly there was many people who didn't really want to listen to these knew findings. It was a compelling argument shame it wasn't on youtube for all to see?
 
seymore15074 said:
If I was shooting someone and they told me they just missed that shot because of skid, I would laugh at them. A miss is a miss, blame it on whatever you like.
Click to expand...

Yep, Funny though, I missed a shot yesterday (off-line) and the skid caused it to go on-line and pocket. You could tell because it was overcut. The skid was favorable in this one case.

Skids are discouraging though, no question about it. As Paul said yesterday, the game is tough enough as it is without the added displeasure of a skid causing a miss.
 
Paul Mon said:
pete lafond said:
Paul Mon,

Might want to put SlipStic Conditioner on the balls for a test, DuPont told me that this formulation will vastly reduce slices and hooks if you put it on a golf club face.

QUOTE]

I remember years ago Lee Trevino was caught on film wiping a golf ball on his forehead to pick up a little grease. Known hustlers supposedly carry vaseoline in their golf bags for the same purpose. Both these tactics are definite no-no's in golf.
Click to expand...

Wow, and he was one of the best golf hustlers around at the time. I never knew this story about him.
Click to expand...
 
TheOne said:
Agree, WillieSkid.

I blame global warming
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TheThinDigit,
You mean the "crisis" of global warming don't you. After all, no one is going to pay attention if it's not a crisis. At least there will be a host of perturbed pool players concerned about this.

Now when is someone going to complain about the global skidding crisis?? That's something about which I can get excited.
 
mjantti said:
I remember watching a video on a test made by Steve Davis and some referee on the subject of skid (kick). They had a table with brand new cloth and brand new balls, the balls were cleaned with acetone and when they rolled the balls (didn't hit them with a cue) together, they got massive skids almost every time. To me it proves that skid is not caused by a chalk residue or a piece of dirt between the contact areas but something completely different....
Click to expand...
And I think that putting acetone on phenolic balls is a really, really strange thing to do. It is nothing at all like normal conditions. Did they measure by other means the coefficient of friction between the balls after acetone was applied? If not, they haven't the slightest clue about how to do an experiment.

To me it proves only that you don't want to put acetone on pool balls.
 
mjantti said:
To me it proves that skid is not caused by a chalk residue or a piece of dirt between the contact areas but something completely different.
Click to expand...

MJ,
I would have to respectfully disagree that "it proves" anything other than that acetone treated balls can skid.

It seems dead certain that there are MULTIPLE CAUSES of skid (ie. surface irregularities, static cling, sticky substances, chalk, etc.). How can showing that one thing causes it disprove that other things might not also contribute???????

Jerry Briesath gave an indisputable demonstration of skid induced by chalk on the contact point (last year at DCC, multiple observers). I would NOT take that to mean that other things couldn't also cause skid. Let's be at least a little scientific.
 
Williebetmore said:
TheThinDigit,
You mean the "crisis" of global warming don't you. After all, no one is going to pay attention if it's not a crisis. At least there will be a host of perturbed pool players concerned about this.

Now when is someone going to complain about the global skidding crisis?? That's something about which I can get excited.
Click to expand...

Sorry WillieWarmer,

I wouldnt call it a crisis it all! Australia and other ex British colonys are about to get almost unbearable to live in over the next century. While good old England will become a rather balmy sub tropical climate - woohooo I'm off out to buy two fridges and a gas guzzling stretch hummer! :D
 
Williebetmore said:
MJ,
I would have to respectfully disagree that "it proves" anything other than that acetone treated balls can skid.

It seems dead certain that there are MULTIPLE CAUSES of skid (ie. surface irregularities, static cling, sticky substances, chalk, etc.). How can showing that one thing causes it disprove that other things might not also contribute???????

Jerry Briesath gave an indisputable demonstration of skid induced by chalk on the contact point (last year at DCC, multiple observers). I would NOT take that to mean that other things couldn't also cause skid. Let's be at least a little scientific.
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MJ you've done it now!!! :D

The fact that the person doing the experiment had a Phd and was one of the top material scientists in the UK isn't gonna protect you here mate. This theory goes against popular belief and u know what happened to Darwin!

PS
Sshhhh don't tell them the earth isn't flat!

Craig <<<< runs away! :D
 
Bob Jewett said:
To me it proves only that you don't want to put acetone on pool balls.
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... and I needed that before I followed through on my plans to clean mine with PVC pipe cleaner... the stuff you use to clean the pipe before you put the glue on. Phew! That was a close one. :p

I was also pretty amazed and delighted with the self lubricating idea. Picturing intelligent cells which notice that the surface had become dry and triggering the opening of little pores to exude some oil. Good stuff.
 
JimS said:
I was also pretty amazed and delighted with the self lubricating idea. Picturing intelligent cells which notice that the surface had become dry and triggering the opening of little pores to exude some oil. Good stuff.
Click to expand...

I have to admit that part was hilarious! :eek:
 
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