skippy27...got a few questions cor you

[lorider]

I just want to clarify the apa specialty rule a lil better

1st as lil back story then a question.

Being a bar banger all my life I played off the wall.

When I joined bcapl I bought a mid level Viking...500.00..not knowing any better and being a cheap skate I used it to play and break with. As you can guess I soon wore out
My tip. I asked the repair guy what kind of tip he suggested for both playing and breaking.

He suggested a buffalo tip which I had him put on.

Now to my question .....under apa rules did I change my cue to a specialty cue by changing to a harder tip ?

Anxiously awaiting your reply :grin-square:

 

[gunzby]

I just want to clarify the apa specialty rule a lil better

1st as lil back story then a question.

Being a bar banger all my life I played off the wall.

When I joined bcapl I bought a mid level Viking...500.00..not knowing any better and being a cheap skate I used it to play and break with. As you can guess I soon wore out
My tip. I asked the repair guy what kind of tip he suggested for both playing and breaking.

He suggested a buffalo tip which I had him put on.

Now to my question .....under apa rules did I change my cue to a specialty cue by changing to a harder tip ?

Anxiously awaiting your reply :grin-square:

No

I would view a specialty tip as being a g10 or phenolic. I view specialty as being only for jumping or breaking

 

[Skippy27]

I just want to clarify the apa specialty rule a lil better

1st as lil back story then a question.

Being a bar banger all my life I played off the wall.

When I joined bcapl I bought a mid level Viking...500.00..not knowing any better and being a cheap skate I used it to play and break with. As you can guess I soon wore out
My tip. I asked the repair guy what kind of tip he suggested for both playing and breaking.

He suggested a buffalo tip which I had him put on.

Now to my question .....under apa rules did I change my cue to a specialty cue by changing to a harder tip ?

Anxiously awaiting your reply :grin-square:

If you use that stick for all of your shots regardless, then no you did not convert it to a specialty cue. I know a guy that actually uses a 3 piece jump/break cue as his shooting stick all the time. He put a softer tip on it and then put a much harder one on what he used to shoot as his regular stick and now breaks with it.

If you changed the cue for the purpose of only using it for specialty shots, be it jumping, breaking or masse, then yes you have converted it to a specialty stick.

See the difference?

I personally would never use my playing stick for breaking. Not only is there more of a chance of something happening to it, but it is harder on the tip and will require you to work it more.

 

[lorider]

If you use that stick for all of your shots regardless, then no you did not convert it to a specialty cue. I know a guy that actually uses a 3 piece jump/break cue as his shooting stick all the time. He put a softer tip on it and then put a much harder one on what he used to shoot as his regular stick and now breaks with it.

If you changed the cue for the purpose of only using it for specialty shots, be it jumping, breaking or masse, then yes you have converted it to a specialty stick.

See the difference?

I personally would never use my playing stick for breaking. Not only is there more of a chance of something happening to it, but it is harder on the tip and will require you to work it more.

Thank you for replying Skippy.

Now I dont want you to take what I am about to say as argumentative....nust a friendly debate about a rule interpretation.

You basically said my cue is legal under apa rules...but with a caveat. Here is where we disagree.

What you bare saying is my cue is legal .if I break and play with it. Then you would have no problem with me making a jump shot with it. However if I broke with a cue designed for breaking and then attempted a jump with my Viking you would protest that I was using a specialty cue. Now dont take this the wrong way but do you see the hypocrisy in Your statement ? Apa rules say you can change to a different cue to cues during a match.

So I ask you this how can a cue you admitted is not a specialty cue but if I decide ....as apa allows ...change to my Viking to attempt a jump shot all of a sudden its a specialty cue ?

 

[Celophanewrap]

Not that you opened this up for opinions, but I felt compelled. So if you'll forgive me...

The way that I might rule on that is if you use a cue as a breaking cue then immediately after the break you switch to your player, you've just declared that you have a specialty cue or a breaking cue.
Now, a coouple of innings later you're shooting and you hook yourself, after looking the shot over you decide that you'll have to try and jump and in the middle of your turn you switch cues with the only discernable reason being that you now must jump, I would see that as switching to a speciality cue.

However, if you had begun that turn at the table with the breaking cue it then becomes your player and you wouldn't be swuitching cues in the middle of your turn.

For me, as a referee, you wouldn't be allowed to switch up in the middle of your turn without some damage to your cue (like losing the tip) that made it unplayable, but if you change cues during a match or a game to begin an inning then that would be OK.

I guess it can be said simply said that you must complete your turn at the table with the cue you brought to the table with the exception being the break (or the above mentioned damage) and switching immediately after the break shot.

 

[lorider]

Not that you opened this up for opinions, but I felt compelled. So if you'll forgive me...

The way that I might rule on that is if you use a cue as a breaking cue then immediately after the break you switch to your player, you've just declared that you have a specialty cue or a breaking cue.
Now, a coouple of innings later you're shooting and you hook yourself, after looking the shot over you decide that you'll have to try and jump and in the middle of your turn you switch cues with the only discernable reason being that you now must jump, I would see that as switching to a speciality cue.

However, if you had begun that turn at the table with the breaking cue it then becomes your player and you wouldn't be swuitching cues in the middle of your turn.

For me, as a referee, you wouldn't be allowed to switch up in the middle of your turn without some damage to your cue (like losing the tip) that made it unplayable, but if you change cues during a match or a game to begin an inning then that would be OK.

I guess it can be said simply said that you must complete your turn at the table with the cue you brought to the table with the exception being the break (or the above mentioned damage) and switching immediately after the break shot.

You are always welcome to comment in any thread I start celo:smile:

Now to address your comments....but ...but..but. The rules say:grin-square:..you can change cues anytime during a match..

Just playing devils advocate here. You and Skippy make some valid points about the intention of changing cues and it may fall under the spirit of the rule. However you have to admit that just changing a tip to a harder one does not make that cue a specialty cue. If that was the case every one who plays with a hard tip I apa would have an illegal cue.

As you are probably aware apa.does not prohibit any types of tips..even. Phenolic .we all know its easier to jump with a hard tip than a soft tip. However if I put a standard hard leather tip on a standard playing cue does not make that cue a specialty cue even if I just use it for certain shots.

Now as gunzby alluded to ...if i put a known specialty tip on it that is specifically made for jumping such as ..white diamond...phenolic...samsara etc. Then you would have a valid argument because I modified it with a specific tip for a specific purpose.


Yea I realize it could be categorized as splitting g hairs but that is the way I interpret.

Hope we both make I to Vegas sk we can have a cold one and shoot the chit and leave the rules to the official's.

Just to let you know. If j do go and if I do have the occasion where I need to jump I am gonna test the officials Interpretation of this rule :grin-square:

 

[Celophanewrap]

You are always welcome to comment in any thread I start celo:smile:

Now to address your comments....but ...but..but. The rules say:grin-square:..you can change cues anytime during a match..

Just playing devils advocate here. You and Skippy make some valid points about the intention of changing cues and it may fall under the spirit of the rule. However you have to admit that just changing a tip to a harder one does not make that cue a specialty cue. If that was the case every one who plays with a hard tip I apa would have an illegal cue.

As you are probably aware apa.does not prohibit any types of tips..even. Phenolic .we all know its easier to jump with a hard tip than a soft tip. However if I put a standard hard leather tip on a standard playing cue does not make that cue a specialty cue even if I just use it for certain shots.

Now as gunzby alluded to ...if i put a known specialty tip on it that is specifically made for jumping such as ..white diamond...phenolic...samsara etc. Then you would have a valid argument because I modified it with a specific tip for a specific purpose.


Yea I realize it could be categorized as splitting g hairs but that is the way I interpret.

Hope we both make I to Vegas sk we can have a cold one and shoot the chit and leave the rules to the official's.

Just to let you know. If j do go and if I do have the occasion where I need to jump I am gonna test the officials Interpretation of this rule :grin-square:

As an aside to all this, my break cue has a Samsara break tip, but I find that if I chalk it up enough I can play it (sort of), so after the break if I have a couple of easy shots I'll just use that cue and suddenly, it's not a specialty cue. It also helps that my breaker and my player look reasonably alike

 

[mm4pool]

Thank you for replying Skippy.

Now I dont want you to take what I am about to say as argumentative....nust a friendly debate about a rule interpretation.

You basically said my cue is legal under apa rules...but with a caveat. Here is where we disagree.

What you bare saying is my cue is legal .if I break and play with it. Then you would have no problem with me making a jump shot with it. However if I broke with a cue designed for breaking and then attempted a jump with my Viking you would protest that I was using a specialty cue. Now dont take this the wrong way but do you see the hypocrisy in Your statement ? Apa rules say you can change to a different cue to cues during a match.

So I ask you this how can a cue you admitted is not a specialty cue but if I decide ....as apa allows ...change to my Viking to attempt a jump shot all of a sudden its a specialty cue ?

page 47 general rules is very clear. if a cue is designed or built for the purpose of breaking it cannot be used to attempt a jump shot

 

[mm4pool]

"Jump Cues – A specialty cue designed for attempting jump shots (see JUMP
SHOTS described in definitions). They may not be used to perform jump
shots or massé shots (see MASSÉ SHOTS described in definitions) in
standard APA League and tournament play.

Break Cues – A specialty cue designed for breaking (see BREAK SHOTS
described in definitions). Sometimes combined with jump cues to form a
jump-break cue, these cues are allowed in APA play for breaking. They may
not be used to perform jump shots or massé shots in standard APA League
and tournament play.

Regular Shooting Cues – Any cue designed to shoot the majority of shots in
a game of pool. These cues may also be used to perform jump shots, massé
shots and break shots in all APA League and tournament play"

 

[Celophanewrap]

"Jump Cues – A specialty cue designed for attempting jump shots (see JUMP
SHOTS described in definitions). They may not be used to perform jump
shots or massé shots (see MASSÉ SHOTS described in definitions) in
standard APA League and tournament play.

Break Cues – A specialty cue designed for breaking (see BREAK SHOTS
described in definitions). Sometimes combined with jump cues to form a
jump-break cue, these cues are allowed in APA play for breaking. They may
not be used to perform jump shots or massé shots in standard APA League
and tournament play.

Regular Shooting Cues – Any cue designed to shoot the majority of shots in
a game of pool. These cues may also be used to perform jump shots, massé
shots and break shots in all APA League and tournament play"

It's all in your perspective. Now, as an APA player do you really care which cue your opponent uses as long as it's not one of your cues? I can't say I really care which cue you use.... unless you piss me off. After that if you so much as fart and it's not compliant with the rules I'll hammer you for it until you bleed. Know what I mean?

This rule thing, first let me say that rules are good, we need them and as a gentleman I know them pretty well and I play within them and make sure my team does as well. By that same token I expect you to play by them as well, but as humans we can make mistakes or interpret things differently, it happens. I think as long as we are sportsmen or sportswomen we can relax and enjoy each other's cue artistry. I love watching my opponent, even if he or she is beating the snot out of me.

I really don't care which cue you use but please don't try to take advantage of my good nature. You see, if you have an S/L 3 that I know is struggling and you've used your time outs, I'll likely tell you to take another one, regardless of what you might say the 3 still has to execute the plan and if I'm not playing well enough to beat a 3 then I don't deserve to win.

Personally I couldn't enjoy the game if I couldn't relax.

 

[mm4pool]

It's all in your perspective. Now, as an APA player do you really care which cue your opponent uses as long as it's not one of your cues? I can't say I really care which cue you use.... unless you piss me off. After that if you so much as fart and it's not compliant with the rules I'll hammer you for it until you bleed. Know what I mean?

This rule thing, first let me say that rules are good, we need them and as a gentleman I know them pretty well and I play within them and make sure my team does as well. By that same token I expect you to play by them as well, but as humans we can make mistakes or interpret things differently, it happens. I think as long as we are sportsmen or sportswomen we can relax and enjoy each other's cue artistry. I love watching my opponent, even if he or she is beating the snot out of me.

I really don't care which cue you use but please don't try to take advantage of my good nature. You see, if you have an S/L 3 that I know is struggling and you've used your time outs, I'll likely tell you to take another one, regardless of what you might say the 3 still has to execute the plan and if I'm not playing well enough to beat a 3 then I don't deserve to win.

Personally I couldn't enjoy the game if I couldn't relax.

i generally dont call these kinds of rule infractions unless, as you say the other team is acting like jerks. i did however have a super 7 in 8 ball try to pull this very thing on me and i called him on it. he knew better but was trying to get away with one.

 

[lorider]

I would like to clarify my stance on this subject be cause a couple of comments disturb me.

I would like to defer to a game we played back in school ..the teacher gave us all the same chapter in a book to read and we had to write an essay on the subject matter in that chapter. She then showed us the results and lo and behold very few had the same opinion of what that chapter was about.


It seems the same with this specialty cue rule. So.e one mentioned that some players look for loop holes in rules to exploit. That kind of bothers me because its not my intention to exploit a loop hole when I read in . Black and white a standard playing cue that ks designed to play a majority of shots is legal to use as a jump cue. Rules also state that you can change you can change cues during a match.

No where have I read you cannot change one playing cue for another playing cue. to make a jump shot.. No where have i read you can not change a soft tip for a hard tip on a playing cue and use it to jump with.

Quite often I hear the term ...spirit of the rule...or.this is my opinion of what this particular rule is designed to eliminate..well its exactly that...your opinion.


How can some one state...you are wrong...that.is not the intent of the rule.my question is...how do you know what the intent of the rule is ? Where you there ? Did you help write it. ?

Now I am not going to claim you are wrong in your interpretation if you disagree with me. But if I am wrong will you quote the rule or.provide a link that specifically states you cannot change one playing cue with a standard soft tip designed to play the majority of games for a standard playing cue with a standard hard tip.designed to play the majority of games during a match and.attempt a jump shot.

Note to yourself ..keyword.." Designed" to play with. No where have I seem you " have" to play with that particular cue a majority of the match

If you show.me....i will.admit.to a serious lack of reason.comprehension

 

[lorider]

One thing I failed to mention. This is not about me trying to exploit a loop hole

I have not attempted a jump In 6 months. I just saw where Skippy post his opinion on this subject and I have a different opinion ..

 

[APA Operator]

A cue does not "become" a specialty cue just because you use it as if it is one. If I pulled out a q-tip (yeah, those things you stick in your ear even though you're not supposed to stick anything smaller than your elbow in your ear and they say elbow because they know nobody can actually stick their elbow in their ear for comparison, those things) and attempted a jump shot with it, would it then be a jump cue? Of course not.

Similarly, a cue that has been modified in such a way that the modification makes a jump shot a little easier isn't necessarily a specialty cue either. Putting a harder tip on a cue doesn't make it a jump cue, unless that tip is one typically found only on break or jump cues.

 

[lorider]

A cue does not "become" a specialty cue just because you use it as if it is one. If I pulled out a q-tip (yeah, those things you stick in your ear even though you're not supposed to stick anything smaller than your elbow in your ear and they say elbow because they know nobody can actually stick their elbow in their ear for comparison, those things) and attempted a jump shot with it, would it then be a jump cue? Of course not.

Similarly, a cue that has been modified in such a way that the modification makes a jump shot a little easier isn't necessarily a specialty cue either. Putting a harder tip on a cue doesn't make it a jump cue, unless that tip is one typically found only on break or jump cues.

Thank you ...thank you ...thank you:thumbup:

 

[Skippy27]

A cue does not "become" a specialty cue just because you use it as if it is one. If I pulled out a q-tip (yeah, those things you stick in your ear even though you're not supposed to stick anything smaller than your elbow in your ear and they say elbow because they know nobody can actually stick their elbow in their ear for comparison, those things) and attempted a jump shot with it, would it then be a jump cue? Of course not.

Similarly, a cue that has been modified in such a way that the modification makes a jump shot a little easier isn't necessarily a specialty cue either. Putting a harder tip on a cue doesn't make it a jump cue, unless that tip is one typically found only on break or jump cues.

So you are claiming that modifying a cue for the sole purpose of jumping and then switching to that cue for the sole purpose of performing a jump and then switching back to your regular playing cue for any and all other shots is within the "spirit" of rules of APA and is not trying to work a loophole in the rules?

If your answer is yes to that then explain:
- If their intent was to allow you to change cues and perform a jump, why would they even bother to "outlaw" sticks designed for that exact purpose?
- It is an amateur league that caters to low and mid level players. Why would they make those players perform the harder task of jumping with a full length stick period if their intent was to allow you to change to a "modified" playing stick that may make it slightly easier for them?
- How does switching to a cue that you have for a specific shot (Jumping), not violate the Equipment rule of Jump cues? It simply says "a specialty cue designed for attempting jump shots". That rule does not say it is a short light jump cue as most of us think. Nor does it say that it has to be designed by a "cue maker". So if you really want to play semantics with the wording of the rules and try to create loopholes I will simply say that you "designed" a specialty cue when you put a harder tip on it and designated it as your break/jump/masse cue to only be used for those shots. I would also say you exempted that playing cue from the APA definition of "Regular Shooting Cues" when you decided that it should only be used for those specific shoots as it is no longer being used for a majority of shots in a game of pool. Thus you turned a regular playing cue stick into a specialty cue by APA definitions of Jump, Break and Regular Shooting Cues.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

So you are claiming that modifying a cue for the sole purpose of jumping and then switching to that cue for the sole purpose of performing a jump and then switching back to your regular playing cue for any and all other shots is within the "spirit" of rules of APA and is not trying to work a loophole in the rules?

If your answer is yes to that then explain:
- If their intent was to allow you to change cues and perform a jump, why would they even bother to "outlaw" sticks designed for that exact purpose?
- It is an amateur league that caters to low and mid level players. Why would they make those players perform the harder task of jumping with a full length stick period if their intent was to allow you to change to a "modified" playing stick that may make it slightly easier for them?
- How does switching to a cue that you have for a specific shot (Jumping), not violate the Equipment rule of Jump cues? It simply says "a specialty cue designed for attempting jump shots". That rule does not say it is a short light jump cue as most of us think. Nor does it say that it has to be designed by a "cue maker". So if you really want to play semantics with the wording of the rules and try to create loopholes I will simply say that you "designed" a specialty cue when you put a harder tip on it and designated it as your break/jump/masse cue to only be used for those shots. I would also say you exempted that playing cue from the APA definition of "Regular Shooting Cues" when you decided that it should only be used for those specific shoots as it is no longer being used for a majority of shots in a game of pool. Thus you turned a regular playing cue stick into a specialty cue by APA definitions of Jump, Break and Regular Shooting Cues.

Ever thought about becoming a lawyer?

I just play pool....my opponent can bring a golf bag to the table, for all I care.

 

[APA Operator]

So you are claiming that modifying a cue for the sole purpose of jumping and then switching to that cue for the sole purpose of performing a jump and then switching back to your regular playing cue for any and all other shots is within the "spirit" of rules of APA and is not trying to work a loophole in the rules?

Yes, if the modification results in a cue that could reasonably be used in normal play, to execute the majority of normal shots. Just because the owner chooses not to use it that way does not make it a specialty cue. Suppose I believe that a graphite shaft helps me execute jump shots, so I get one for one of my cues, and only use that cue for jumping. It's not a specialty cue.

Take the use of the cue by its owner out of the equation for a moment. If someone handed you a cue and asked if it was a jump or break cue, would you be able to answer them? Most likely you would, even though you have no idea how they use the cue.

If your answer is yes to that then explain:
- If their intent was to allow you to change cues and perform a jump, why would they even bother to "outlaw" sticks designed for that exact purpose?

Because the majority of players cannot execute a jump shot without a specialty cue, so outlawing the cues takes jumping (and the resulting damage that may occur) out of the equation. That section of the manual actually used to outlaw changing cues during your turn, but there are plenty of other reasons why someone would change cues and the rule book lawyers were having a field day with that.

- It is an amateur league that caters to low and mid level players. Why would they make those players perform the harder task of jumping with a full length stick period if their intent was to allow you to change to a "modified" playing stick that may make it slightly easier for them?

Same answer. Slightly easier for a good player, but still out of the equation for a beginner. Be careful here, though, when you speak of intent. The "slightly easier" part probably wasn't even discussed when the rule was implemented. The intent was to outlaw jump cues, and the rule (and related definitions) has been slightly modified multiple times because rule book lawyers want to keep arguing about what is or is not a jump cue.

- How does switching to a cue that you have for a specific shot (Jumping), not violate the Equipment rule of Jump cues? It simply says "a specialty cue designed for attempting jump shots". That rule does not say it is a short light jump cue as most of us think. Nor does it say that it has to be designed by a "cue maker". So if you really want to play semantics with the wording of the rules and try to create loopholes I will simply say that you "designed" a specialty cue when you put a harder tip on it and designated it as your break/jump/masse cue to only be used for those shots. I would also say you exempted that playing cue from the APA definition of "Regular Shooting Cues" when you decided that it should only be used for those specific shoots as it is no longer being used for a majority of shots in a game of pool. Thus you turned a regular playing cue stick into a specialty cue by APA definitions of Jump, Break and Regular Shooting Cues.

See my previous answer. We have plenty of rule book lawyers. No matter what definition or rule is in the book, they want to debate and find loopholes. We close loopholes with common sense. If APA inspects the cue and declares it a specialty cue then that's what it is. If not, then jump away. Yes, sometimes you have to resort to the old "because I said so" answer. :wink:

 

[mm4pool]

and then to muddy the waters even further, APA allows use of jump cues in masters division even though rules clearly state otherwise. LOL

 

[erhino41]

A playing cue with a hard tip is not a jump cue! Get over it. The rules allow the op to do this.

Jump cues are banned because they give an experienced player even more of an advantage and a less experienced player can cause alot of damage with one.

If you can jump full cue with a Viking and a"regular" tip, you should be allowed
to do so.