Slow Cloth versus Fast Cloth and Stroke

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
I have been hearing quite a buzz about the upcoming IPT event in Las Vegas, and one of the distinctive features laid out in the promotional materials is the use of SLOW CLOTH as opposed to FAST CLOTH.

In the '70s, the slow cloth was a favorite among players in my area. At that time, I remember having my home table covered in slow cloth for that very reason. Today, my table is covered with Simonis 860.

It has been said that one must have a good STROKE in order be proficient on slow cloth. Today, all of the tournaments I attend are played on fast cloth. I'm curious and would enjoy reading some opinions about the playability of the two, the pros and cons.

There is a wealth of knowledge in this forum, and I'd like to hear from others. Any thoughts?

JAM
 
I think what is more important is how lively the rails are. On slow cloth I can stroke the ball fairly well because the spin grabs more, however it is obviously much harder to pull off a length of the table (distance between cb and ob) draw shot than it would be on fast cloth, because the cb slides more on the fast cloth thus the spin is not wearing down as quickly. What makes a table play painfully slow IMO is the rails. Slow cloth plus dead rails= hell. Slow cloth+ live rails= decent, fast cloth+live rails= optimum playing conditions IMHO.
 
Thinking about this, I certainly prefer faster cloth, but don't know exactly why. Maybe it is because I can make the cue ball "dance" on faster cloth, but on slow cloth, the cue ball just kind of "fizzles".

Or maybe I have a wider range of speeds on faster cloth. From very very slow to very very fast?

I know I prefer brand new slow cloth and hate old worn slow cloth.

And I like old or new fast cloth - maybe even like old fast cloth more...
 
Billy_Bob said:
Thinking about this, I certainly prefer faster cloth, but don't know exactly why. Maybe it is because I can make the cue ball "dance" on faster cloth, but on slow cloth, the cue ball just kind of "fizzles".

Or maybe I have a wider range of speeds on faster cloth. From very very slow to very very fast?

I know I prefer brand new slow cloth and hate old worn slow cloth.

And I like old or new fast cloth - maybe even like old fast cloth more...
Click to expand...

I actually follow what you mean, surprising myself. :p

With the old fast cloth, the table is worn in, and there isn't as much of a chance for skidding, unless the player injects some extreme english on the balls.

The old slow cloth has got to be the absolute worst, but the new slow cloth rolls quite differently than the fast cloth, new or old.

Some players, especially young ones, may encounter some difficulty in finding their stroke on the slow cloth. One thing for sure, each tournament has different environmental conditions, and the player who has the capability to adapt to an Olhausen as opopsed to a Diamond and/or red-dotted or blue-dotted cue balls and/or the speed of the cloth will enjoy a good advantage in competitive settings.

I'm digesting the prospect of an IPT Tour and slow-cloth tables. Winning $200,000 or $300,000 is quite an incentive. :D

JAM
 
cloth

JAM said:
I have been hearing quite a buzz about the upcoming IPT event in Las Vegas, and one of the distinctive features laid out in the promotional materials is the use of SLOW CLOTH as opposed to FAST CLOTH.

In the '70s, the slow cloth was a favorite among players in my area. At that time, I remember having my home table covered in slow cloth for that very reason. Today, my table is covered with Simonis 860.

It has been said that one must have a good STROKE in order be proficient on slow cloth. Today, all of the tournaments I attend are played on fast cloth. I'm curious and would enjoy reading some opinions about the playability of the two, the pros and cons.

There is a wealth of knowledge in this forum, and I'd like to hear from others. Any thoughts?

JAM
Click to expand...
Hi Jam,

Not matter what is said, it take a differant approach and stroke to play on the older slower cloth.

Not many players like the tight pockets and or slower cloth.

However,for players like Keith, Buddy,Sigel, the slower cloth and tighter pockets, really fits there style of play.

Tighten the pockets up, use slower cloth, these guys will show how it's done.

Now I'm not taking anything away from the modern day player who likes the faster cloth. These guys can really play to. It just takes a differant stroke playing on the slower cloth.With the foremat that Kevin has outlaid, sit back and enjoy some really good pool action coming your way.
blud
ps, say hello to Keith for us.
 
860 Cloth

Pardon my ignorance, but what is 860 cloth considered? Fast or Slow?

Im getting a gold crown and it has 860 cloth on it.

Cheers,
Dave.
 
cloth

Tickets said:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is 860 cloth considered? Fast or Slow?

Im getting a gold crown and it has 860 cloth on it.

Cheers,
Dave.
Click to expand...
860 is fast cloth.
blud
 
blud said:
Hi Jam,

Not matter what is said, it take a differant approach and stroke to play on the older slower cloth.

Not many players like the tight pockets and or slower cloth.

However,for players like Keith, Buddy,Sigel, the slower cloth and tighter pockets, really fits there style of play.

Tighten the pockets up, use slower cloth, these guys will show how it's done.

Now I'm not taking anything away from the modern day player who likes the faster cloth. These guys can really play to. It just takes a differant stroke playing on the slower cloth.With the foremat that Kevin has outlaid, sit back and enjoy some really good pool action coming your way.
blud
ps, say hello to Keith for us.
Click to expand...


Totally agree, the top pros will have an advantage for sure. I know if I'm playing someone better then me, which is far to often:D I like to play on fast cloth with big pockets, it makes the games much closer and I have a good chance of winning games.

I still like to play on slow nap cloth since I played on it in my early years, especially in 14.1, but hardly any places have tables with slow nap cloth today, I assume that may change now with the IPT, local players will ask room owners to have a few tables to fit the IPT standards.
 
red/blue dot

Jam mentioned red dot and blue dot cue balls. I had a customer ask me about the difference a few days ago and didn't know the answer. Could someone enlighten me?
 
If its not pulled very tight to the bed 860 can play on the slow side. (Played recently in a Detroit area room where tables are set up with loose Simonis 860). Slow cloth and dull rails can make position play a nightmare. Lively rails with worn, fast cloth presents speed judgement/control problems. If I couldn't have moderate conditions, I'd rather deal with too fast than too slow. I also prefer 4-3/8" to 4-1/2" pockets. Smaller pockets are too retrictive for most games and takes too much shooting and position play (and fun) out of games. At the end of the day we have to cope with whatever the conditions are the best we can. Some are better than others at this.

While I'm at it I might as well add that I hate underweight and undersized cue balls. They drastically change cut and carom angles. Using follow or force follow becomes a joke. Takes a lot of fun and skill out of the game. Despite feedback from good players the owner of a fairly nice local room (who plays at about a C level) insists on the light cueballs. I think he gets his jollies on being able to draw the cueball like crazy. It really bastardizes a great game. :(

Martin


blud said:
860 is fast cloth.
blud
Click to expand...
 
blud said:
Hi Jam, no matter what is said, it take a different approach and stroke to play on the older slower cloth...for players like Keith, Buddy, Sigel, the slower cloth and tighter pockets really fits their style of play.
Click to expand...

Hot dog, that's what I'm hoping for, Blud! Last night, a few players at a local tournament were talking about the IPT. With these kinds of monies on the table, EVERYONE is hoping to be all that they can be by practice, practice, practice. It's going to be a whole new ball game.

blud said:
...say hello to Keith for us.
Click to expand...

Keith sends his warmest regards to you and yours, Blud! We both hope to see you on the tournament trail sometime soon.

JAM
 
The Room I Normally Play in DAILY has been closed almost 4 MONTHS.:(:(:(:( All it Tables HAVE Simonis FAST CLOTH, when it Closed I was just learning to Draw, or the Draw Shot. Plus I understand New Simonis has been installed on a bunch of tables.... :D

Where I have been playing ONLY ONCE or TWICE a WEEK... Has Slow Cloth, and is a Brand X, and NO Simonis. :(

May Draw Show has Metamorphosed in to a predictable event. Should be interesting to see if I can Draw for S**T on the Fast Cloth ;)
 
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cloth

jazznpool said:
If its not pulled very tight to the bed 860 can play on the slow side. (Played recently in a Detroit area room where tables are set up with loose Simonis 860). Slow cloth and dull rails can make position play a nightmare. Lively rails with worn, fast cloth presents speed judgement/control problems. If I couldn't have moderate conditions, I'd rather deal with too fast than too slow. I also prefer 4-3/8" to 4-1/2" pockets. Smaller pockets are too retrictive for most games and takes too much shooting and position play (and fun) out of games. At the end of the day we have to cope with whatever the conditions are the best we can. Some are better than others at this.

While I'm at it I might as well add that I hate underweight and undersized cue balls. They drastically change cut and carom angles. Using follow or force follow becomes a joke. Takes a lot of fun and skill out of the game. Despite feedback from good players the owner of a fairly nice local room (who plays at about a C level) insists on the light cueballs. I think he gets his jollies on being able to draw the cueball like crazy. It really bastardizes a great game. :(

Martin
Click to expand...
Hi Martin,
If any cloth is not installed properly it will be slow.
I use a grid system to stretch cloth.
I've written about this a ways back.
I lay the cloth on the slates, then using a chalk line with white chalk, snap two lines, 2" apart down the middle long ways on the cloth. Then I snap 2 lines on each end and 2 lines at the side pockets. Make sure the lines are 2" apart.The 2 lines on each end should be about 6" from the end of the slates.
[ your snapping a total of 8 lines, 2 in each location].

I then staple about 6" in the center on the one end and go to the other end and staple about 12", then go back and forth from end to end, stapling about 4" at each time on each end until your all the way across both ends.

{ BYW, table mechanics don't like this method, because it's to much work and take about 10 minutes longer than normal}.

Do your best to keep the cross ways lines straight as possible, and the same width apart. Now stretch the cloth side ways, starting just next to the side pockets, working from side to side as you did for the ends, then come back and stretch for all your pockets. By using this method, you will not have any hot spots or slow spots any place in the cloth.
Most table guys, just staple one end at a time, and then staple the other end. By doing it that way, the first end will never be as tight as the last end he stretches.This will make his first end slow, over time.

Also if your doing many table at the same time, you have a [bench mark] for stretching the cloth, meaning two or 3 guys can work on differant tables and using this method, all the cloth will be stretched the same.

After stretching the first table, measure the distance between the lines and tell your other mechanics to stretch there's the same.

Now all the tables will play very close to the same.
This same method I used on the pro-tour for years. The PRO'S really liked how the tables played. Never had ANY complaints, for 12 yrs or so.
Don't worry about the white chalk lines, they brush out easily.
hanger guys, just a hanger.
rock-on
da-blud
 
Thanks for the solid info Blud! Best regards, Martin


blud said:
Hi Martin,
If any cloth is not installed properly it will be slow.
I use a grid system to stretch cloth.
I've written about this a ways back.
I lay the cloth on the slates, then using a chalk line with white chalk, snap two lines, 2" apart down the middle long ways on the cloth. Then I snap 2 lines on each end and 2 lines at the side pockets. Make sure the lines are 2" apart.The 2 lines on each end should be about 6" from the end of the slates.
[ your snapping a total of 8 lines, 2 in each location].

I then staple about 6" in the center on the one end and go to the other end and staple about 12", then go back and forth from end to end, stapling about 4" at each time on each end until your all the way across both ends.

{ BYW, table mechanics don't like this method, because it's to much work and take about 10 minutes longer than normal}.

Do your best to keep the cross ways lines straight as possible, and the same width apart. Now stretch the cloth side ways, starting just next to the side pockets, working from side to side as you did for the ends, then come back and stretch for all your pockets. By using this method, you will not have any hot spots or slow spots any place in the cloth.
Most table guys, just staple one end at a time, and then staple the other end. By doing it that way, the first end will never be as tight as the last end he stretches.This will make his first end slow, over time.

Also if your doing many table at the same time, you have a [bench mark] for stretching the cloth, meaning two or 3 guys can work on differant tables and using this method, all the cloth will be stretched the same.

After stretching the first table, measure the distance between the lines and tell your other mechanics to stretch there's the same.

Now all the tables will play very close to the same.
This same method I used on the pro-tour for years. The PRO'S really liked how the tables played. Never had ANY complaints, for 12 yrs or so.
Don't worry about the white chalk lines, they brush out easily.
hanger guys, just a hanger.
rock-on
da-blud
Click to expand...
 
Fast cloth creates more shot options, especially in regard to using spin and power to affect lines and curves. I can generate wider arcs to produce kiss options that cannot be created on a slow grippy cloth.

I think that adds color and new challenges to the game.

If you want to make the game tougher, tighten the pockets to 4" to force players to get more creative and demanding with their positional shots as it is in snooker.

Or play a game that is more challenging than 8-ball, which gets a bit too easy for the pros, making the break shot the determining factor.

In golf, it is almost universally accepted among pros that faster greens benefit the good putters from the bad putters.

So I'm against moving to the slower cloths. It makes the game more boring for me as it reduces my shot options....much like playing with a bad rack cue.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Fast cloth creates more shot options, especially in regard to using spin and power to affect lines and curves. I can generate wider arcs to produce kiss options that cannot be created on a slow grippy cloth.

I think that adds color and new challenges to the game.

If you want to make the game tougher, tighten the pockets to 4" to force players to get more creative and demanding with their positional shots as it is in snooker.

Or play a game that is more challenging than 8-ball, which gets a bit too easy for the pros, making the break shot the determining factor.

In golf, it is almost universally accepted among pros that faster greens benefit the good putters from the bad putters.

So I'm against moving to the slower cloths. It makes the game more boring for me as it reduces my shot options....much like playing with a bad rack cue.
Click to expand...
I agree 10 percent.

unknownpro
 
Colin Colenso said:
Fast cloth creates more shot options, especially in regard to using spin and power to affect lines and curves. I can generate wider arcs to produce kiss options that cannot be created on a slow grippy cloth.

I think that adds color and new challenges to the game.

If you want to make the game tougher, tighten the pockets to 4" to force players to get more creative and demanding with their positional shots as it is in snooker.

Or play a game that is more challenging than 8-ball, which gets a bit too easy for the pros, making the break shot the determining factor.

In golf, it is almost universally accepted among pros that faster greens benefit the good putters from the bad putters.

So I'm against moving to the slower cloths. It makes the game more boring for me as it reduces my shot options....much like playing with a bad rack cue.
Click to expand...

Going with a slower nap is going backwards in technology. I agree, tighter pockets is the answer. In some countries they even heat the tables (just like many billiards tables are heated here) which makes them much faster. Imagine a slow player now, not only to we have to wait for the player to shoot, we have to wait for the cue ball to stop.

While mentioning tighter pockets, it would be nice if a manufacturer would come up with a pocket face with varying thicknesses that are geometrically correct. This would reduce the number of 'bad pockets' on a tightened table. The biggest problem I have experienced is when you play on a table whose pocket size was reduced and some of those pockets play badly.

Four things that need consideration when tightening pockets; 1. The hole where the ball drops is pushed back (this is an effect) 2. the pocket tips uniformity with the rail 3. the flair of the pockets 4. the material used in the pocket face and bounce effect.
 
It doesn't matter to me. Slow or fast, either way I end up screwing myself eventually. Just seems funny to me that I have a tendency to roll long on slow cloth and short on fast cloth. Go Figure.

If I had my choice, which hasn't even been mentioned here unless I missed it. I want medium cloth. Everyone is talking slow or fast. What is the problem with hitting a happy medium. Just very slightly slower than 860. I think Champion is about like that. But if they have more than one type then I'm not going to be able to tell you which one I'm talking about.
 
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