Slow play by pros

middleofnowhere

Registered
I'm watching this tournament Battle of the bull and I'm kind of mystified by the incredible slow play by the professionals. They seem to stand over shots walk back and forth for no reason and take forever to play obvious position play. The more I watch the more it seems to be almost all of the players play with this style now.

Very robotic and actually difficult to watch. I actually turned it off last night. Go ahead and attack me if you want I don't really care but I prefer watching Earl play or Keith or any number of the older players who play the game not frightened to death of everything.
Is this now the new norm that we can expect? Pool playing robots.
 
I'm watching this tournament Battle of the bull and I'm kind of mystified by the incredible slow play by the professionals. They seem to stand over shots walk back and forth for no reason and take forever to play obvious position play. The more I watch the more it seems to be almost all of the players play with this style now.

Very robotic and actually difficult to watch. I actually turned it off last night. Go ahead and attack me if you want I don't really care but I prefer watching Earl play or Keith or any number of the older players who play the game not frightened to death of everything.
Is this now the new norm that we can expect? Pool playing robots.
And people keep asking for tighter and tighter pockets. Modern pool has turned into safety-filled 'cinch' pool drudgery. Without refs/clocks its virtually un-watchable. It has ZERO flow that pool had back in the CamelTour days.
 
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And people keep asking for tighter and tighter pockets. Modern pool has turned into safety-filled 'cinch' pool drudgery. Without refs/clocks its virtually un-watchable. It has ZERO flow that pool had back in the CamelTour days.
I'm not a Pro but I would guess that pocket size has nothing to do with the time it takes for people to think about runouts.
 
And people keep asking for tighter and tighter pockets. Modern pool has turned into safety-filled 'cinch' pool drudgery. Without refs/clocks its virtually un-watchable. It has ZERO flow that pool had back in the CamelTour days.

looks like stock diamonds? these guys alnar, candela, morra take forever on any size pockets. meanwhile guys like soufi, jayson, filler play fast on 4" pockets. the slow ones are slow because they can and it's part gamesmanship
 
I'm not a Pro but I would guess that pocket size has nothing to do with the time it takes for people to think about runouts.
What??? Are you kidding?? They have to play pinpoint position because you cant cheat the pockets, I'm sure they have to decide whether to play a tough shot or play safe, constantly looking 3-4 balls ahead because its tougher to move the cue ball, etc that all uses up more time. When playing on a Valley barbox anywhere you land is good shape.
 
I'm not buying that the switch to tighter pockets in any way explains slow play. In fact, slow play was just as big a problem 10-15 years ago when the pockets were much looser.

Slow play persists because it is tolerated. There is an old saying about pro pool and it is "give the players all day to shoot and that's exactly how long they will take."

As those who play on Mike Zuglan's Joss Northeast Tour know, slow play is not tolerated. If a match is scheduled for two hours and Mike sees that it is 3-2 at the one-hour mark, he will get in the players' faces and tell them to hurry up. He's the exception.

The WPBA had a nice approach in the 1990s and 2000s. If a race to nine was scheduled for two hours, if the players had not completed eight racks by the one-hour mark, the remainder of the match would be played on the shot clock, with a volunteer overseeing the match with a stopwatch. The very prospect of having to go onto the shot clock motivated the players to keep things moving, and not many matches ended up on the shot clock.

In a perfect world, at least at the majors, there would be a shot clock in every match (or at least in every Stage 2 match) but it costs money to have that many referees and shot clock operators, and pool operates on pretty small profit margins to start with. The chess clock solution might well work, but nobody seems willing to try it.

I agree with all those who suggest that the lack of a shot clock reduces the quality of the pro pool offering, making the game less exciting to watch.
 
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Something definitely needs to be done as it is very off putting. Basically becomes unwatchable. Apparently golf has the same problem.


Professional golf’s slooooowwwwww play problem

Fans want pro golf to move faster, but for the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour, there’s no quick fix.

June 28, 2025 at 6:00 a.m. EDT



By Gene Wang and Rick Maese



At the Women’s PGA Championship last week, the heat index reached triple digits, wind gusts blew at more than 30 mph — and some rounds lasted an outlandish six hours. It left the best players in the world fuming and flummoxed and again spotlighted the problem of slow play in golf, an issue that has plagued both the men’s and women’s tours in recent years.

The glacial pace of play on a wicked layout at Field Ranch East at PGA Frisco near Dallas was a talking point throughout the weekend, in some ways overshadowing Minjee Lee’s third major championship, and the conversation continued during tournament recaps on the “Golf Channel” and other outlets. The unflattering coverage had analysts blasting an overly penal course setup that yielded endless rounds in what was supposed to be a showcase event for the sport.



“We played [as a twosome] in like six hours. That’s just a little ridiculous, but what can you do?” world No. 1 Nelly Korda, one of the LPGA Tour’s fastest players, said after a round that required more than three hours to play the front nine. “We’ve had lots of situations in the past, like, year where we’ve had to wait a long time, so unfortunately kind of used to it, which you don’t want to be used to it, especially in a two-ball Saturday of a major.”

Interminable stoppages during the third of five major women’s championships came less than three weeks after concerns over slow play compelled officials at the U.S. Women’s Open to move up final round tee times by an hour to ensure the final groups would not outlast the allotted broadcast window as they had the previous day.



The men’s game has dealt with similar problems. PGA Tour players have grumbled about pace of play for years, and fans have taken notice. Last year, the tour launched a Fan Forward initiative, surveying 50,000 golf enthusiasts, and identified slow play as an urgent issue.



The tour didn’t wait until the lull between seasons to tinker with new initiatives and started testing some measures this year. Officials report golf rounds this season on tour are about five minutes faster than last year.

Still, at the men’s U.S. Open two weeks ago, a star-studded group comprising world No. 1 Scottie Scheffler, two-time major winner Collin Morikawa and world No. 10 Viktor Hovland needed 71 minutes to play the first three holes during the second round at unforgiving Oakmont Country Club near Pittsburgh.

“It’s important to say that we don’t have a target number or something. That’s not the focus,” said Tyler Dennis, the PGA Tour’s chief competitions officer. “… This was one of the very most important things to fans, so it’s worth the effort. We’ve had all the data. We have a lot of smart people thinking about it, but there’s no one thing you’re going to put your finger on and go, ‘Wow, that’s the panacea for this.’ It’s a very multidimensional thing.”



Under the PGA Tour’s policy, the first player to shoot has 50 seconds. The other players have 40 seconds. If a player exceeds that time, the tournament official issues a warning. An ensuing infraction would then result in a one-stroke penalty. No PGA Tour player has been penalized for slow play this year, and none has faced any penalty since 2017.

The tour has been closely monitoring revised pace of play rules on its Latin American tour and on the Korn Ferry Tour, one step down from the PGA Tour. Under the new rules, players are assessed a one-stroke penalty for a “bad time” infraction, two strokes for a second offense and disqualification for a third.

The Korn Ferry started testing the policy in April and through eight events had one “bad time” infraction. In those same events last season, there were 10 such offenses, though without the steep penalty, and PGA Tour officials said the revised policy is acting as an immediate deterrent.

“There’s no doubt about it that the warnings themselves, when a referee goes out to warn a group, it’s carrying a lot more weight‚” said Gary Young, the PGA Tour’s senior vice president of rules and competitions. “... Obviously there’s a sense of urgency that’s developed on the player behavior side. They do not want to get on the clock, and if they are on the clock, they want to get off the clock as quick as possible.”



Those policy and punishments are not in effect on the PGA Tour, but the circuit’s Player Advisory Council is expected to discuss the matter when it meets later this summer. Such a punitive policy would be sure to ruffle some feathers, although plenty of players have been pleading for action.

“You just have to start [administering stroke penalties] and giving guys actual penalties, whether it be strokes or FedExCup [points],” Morikawa told reporters this year. “What I’ve learned is that monetary fines are useless. We make so much money, and some guys frankly couldn’t care less about — I don’t know how much the fines are, but whatever X amount they are — and I think they care more about playing good golf and making sure they make the playoffs and making sure they make, you know, [the top] 70, 50, 30. That’s where it hits hard.”

On the LPGA side, administrators updated the policy this year designed to expedite play, at the urging of players. Under the new rules, a player is to be fined for eclipsing her allotted time on a hole by one to five seconds, issued a one-stroke penalty for six to 15 seconds over and deducted two strokes for a delay of 16 seconds or longer.

The provisions went into effect March 27 at the Ford Championship.

LPGA Tour players typically are granted 40 seconds to hit, but under the previous rules, the first player to hit at any hole was allowed an extra 10 seconds. The new policy permits an extra 10 seconds only to the first player to hit on a par-3. At all other holes, players are required to hit within 40 seconds.



Women’s PGA Championship officials have not addressed publicly what measures, if any, they undertook to mitigate the interminable pace of play during last week’s tournament, in which only Lee and two others finished below par.

“Yeah, it was pretty crazy,” said England’s Charley Hull, among the most fervent advocates for fast play. “We were playing two balls … and it took us 3 hours and 10 minutes to play nine holes, which is pretty crazy. We play a four-ball at home in like three hours, you know what I mean, with bogeys and stuff.”

washingtonpost.com © 1996-2025 The Washington Post
 
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I'm not a Pro but I would guess that pocket size has nothing to do with the time it takes for people to think about runouts.
Of course it does, but they could play faster, they do under a shot clock but if you’re going to give them the time, they will take all the time in the world to make sure that they don’t miss and get position.
This mentality came to pool from players that come from snooker oriented countries like most of Europe and China.

Pro and open events must have a shot clock on all tables all the time.
And a better dress code while at it.
 
I'm not buying that the switch to tighter pockets in any way explains slow play. In fact, slow play was just as big a problem 10-15 years ago when the pockets were much looser.

Slow play persists because it is tolerated. There is an old saying about pro pool and it is "give the players all day to shoot and that's exactly how long they will take."

As those who play on Mike Zuglan's Joss Northeast Tour know, slow play is not tolerated on the Joss Tour. If a match is scheduled for two hours and Mike sees that it is 3-2 at the one-hour mark, he will get in the players' faces and tell them to hurry up. He's the exception.

The WPBA had a nice approach in the 1990s and 2000s. If a race to nine was scheduled for two hours, if the players had not completed eight racks by the one-hour mark, the remainder of the match would be played on the shot clock, with a volunteer overseeing the match with a stopwatch. The very prospect of having to go onto the shot clock motivated the players to keep things moving, and not many matches ended up on the shot clock.

In a perfect world, at least at the majors, there would be a shot clock in every match (or at least in every Stage 2 match) but it costs money to have that many referees and shot clock operators, and pool operates on pretty small profit margins to start with. The chess clock solution might well work, but nobody seems willing to try it.

I agree with all those who suggest that the lack of a shot clock reduces the quality of the pro pool offering, making the game less exciting to watch.
Watched a ton of Camel stuff, some in person and a lot on video. I don't recall matches being as tedious as some of today's stuff. Even Buddy who some said was slow was faster than some(a lot?) of the current crop. If MR really wants to take it forward they have to end this snail's pace play. Start fining if they have to.
 
Talking about two completely different things. Winning vs watching. Very few have "automatic talent" to play fast and win, especially at the amateur level.
 
My fear is this. Younger players will begin to emulate this, thinking this is how the game is played.
Too late
the game has changed.
Back in the day, pockets were huge, pocketing was easy and it was all about moving the cue ball.
Today, it's all about pocketing the ball and position is secondary, as long as you see the ball, it good enough.

You could blame tight pockets for this, but this approach started to take over before pocket got tighter than 4.5 inches. Tight pockets is the response of the game to this approach.
 
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