Smoking at tournament matches
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
It is good that you can accommodate to rules voted on by others.
You may accommodate to other losses of freedom. But it is
good to be comfortable. Nothing hard about giving up freedom or
your life for that matter. Go ahead, rest easy.
I kind of think MOST societies operate with lots of people "accomodating" rules and laws that many of them DIDN'T vote on.
I don't remember voting on increasing my taxes, but mysteriously it seems they have been raised by somebody and I have to pay them.
I didn't vote for Obama, but he seems to be in office...can I object and get him replaced or should I just "accomodate" him?
I have NO PROBLEM with there being SMOKING and NON-SMOKING places because then I have a choice of which one to go to. It is when smokers and non-smokers are intermingled in the same place that the problems arise. The non-smokers have NO CHOICE in the matter...they are forced to breathe the smoke. If the place allows smoking, then that is just a rule that non-smokers must live with. If the place doesn't allow smoking, then the smokers must live with that rule also.
Like I said, I smoked for many years and I NEVER had the attitude that I had the "RIGHT" to smoke in areas where smoking wasn't permitted. Even if smoking was permitted, I tried to move away from people or went outside if people complained it was bothering them. That is COMMON COURTESY.
I would go way beyond that and say it is outright mandatory if you want to be a human being with any sense or feelings toward others. I think it is outright impudent if you are a smoker and don't have this attitude, how can it not be?
I agree with almost everything you said. We have all dealt with this for years, even decades. It is time for it to end. "Losing freedom" isn't really losing freedom when it was something you shouldn't have been able to do in the first place. That is the problem, smokers feeling entitled simply because of the way things have been. Smoking in any sort of common or public area must come to an end. Homes, businesses, yes.... there is a good case for allowing smoking in those areas.
The choice is simple and easy to understand.
Non smokers do not have to enter where smokers are.
It is a legal product.
The government sells licenses to sell the product.
It is not as if I were promoting the smoking of commonly known
illegal substances.
Good post! I am a non smoker and never have smoked period. But, I do not knock smokers at all. But they do not respect a non smoker like I do them! Smoking makes my nose run I get stopped up and all with it right under me or around me. I leave though, I do not say a word to them! Thanks again for your good post.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
Assault and battery
"Assault is the intentional causing of another to be in apprehension of an immediate battery." "Battery is the intentional touching of another without cause or legal justification, whether the contact is direct or with an object or substance." Even non-smokers who choose to tolerate a smoking atmosphere are subconsciously subjected to random-operant conditioning to be under defensive stress during an activity like billiards. Smokers have an unfair advantage. I knew a pro who told me he used to try to pick up on whether an opponent was bothered by smoking. He would set down a pack near his opponent's things and watch for a reaction. But he would wait to light up until the opponent was about to run out. Said his success rate against higher rated opponents was phenomenal. He told me this after he did it to ME.
"Assault is the intentional causing of another to be in apprehension of an immediate battery." "Battery is the intentional touching of another without cause or legal justification, whether the contact is direct or with an object or substance." Even non-smokers who choose to tolerate a smoking atmosphere are subconsciously subjected to random-operant conditioning to be under defensive stress during an activity like billiards. Smokers have an unfair advantage. I knew a pro who told me he used to try to pick up on whether an opponent was bothered by smoking. He would set down a pack near his opponent's things and watch for a reaction. But he would wait to light up until the opponent was about to run out. Said his success rate against higher rated opponents was phenomenal. He told me this after he did it to ME.
It is FAR more common than most would admit.
The choice is simple and easy to understand.
Non smokers do not have to enter where smokers are.
It is a legal product.
The government sells licenses to sell the product.
It is not as if I were promoting the smoking of commonly known
illegal substances.
See, this is the problem -- hiding behind the blind "you don't have to be here" entitlement excuse. It's as if the pro-smoker's-rights group thinks that the smoker has MORE of a right to be in the public place than the non-smoker. So get a group of smokers and non-smokers in a room, the room fills up with smoke, and now the non-smokers, when their eyes start to hurt (or suffer any of the other physical symptoms of smoke irritation) have to decide whether to stay or to leave?
Lock N Load, you don't think this isn't fair? That you are enjoying playing pool, and now one group of inconsiderate folks' irritating behavior has presented you with the decision of either having to bear the irritating behavior at your own personal discomfort, or to have to quit playing pool (the reason you went to that public place to begin with), and now have to leave the premises?
I personally think the "you non-smokers don't have to be there" and "alcohol is more poisonous than tobacco" arguments are a deflective wash. And really dismissive ones, too! Ones that belligerently ignore the fact that the smoker's habit negatively affects the public space in which other people are entitled, by right, to be there. Smoking directly affects that public space's environment. Other habits or behaviors don't do this. One's consumption of alcohol doesn't affect the public space (air or otherwise) that other people have to "bear." If a drunk starts affecting other people, he/she gets thrown out, not those being irritated by him/her.
Personally, I'm on the no-smoking-during-tournaments side. Even though bans on indoor smoking are spreading across the U.S., I don't think pool halls that currently are allowed to have smoking indoors (e.g. those few places left, like the ones JoeyA explains) should ban smoking indoors until the law tells them to. It's just during tournaments. It's fair to those that want to participate in that tournament.
-Sean
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Thank you for repeating...this argument was not clear the first 1000 smoke police posts.
Now, perhaps you can go back and read one of the many responses.
Then you can go ahead and make a relative response, and we can move forward instead of repeating ourselves all day.
For future reference. A courtroom is a public place. A park is a public place. A pool room or bar, is a private establishment in which the owner has allowed you entrance. So be grateful that you're even allowed in the place rather than b1tching about his business decisions. Learn your place. You're a patron, not a king.
Drew:
It's humorous you write this, because I *have* been reading and participating in this thread. So no, I don't have to go back and read as per your deflective reasoning.
And as to your "definitions," yes, that poolroom is a private establishment THAT'S OPEN FOR PUBLIC BUSINESS. That poolroom is not a private club that requires private membership (i.e. requires keycard access or has a bouncer that filters people coming in). It's just like a grocery store or a deli.
Concerning the "moving forward" thing -- really? Now how do you suggest we "move forward" when it's obvious that the foundation for moving forward can't be agreed upon?
-Sean
Actually Sean, I was only hoping to see a ban of smoking between opponents while they are playing a tournament match.
Banning smoking during the tournament carries a lot of water and while it would be nice to not have the senses irritated by the stench of cigarettes and cigars and all of the other health reasons, I'll leave the complete banning of smoking at pool tournaments to the citizens of each state.
I can always sit in my car outside of the establishment while waiting to play which is what I try to do at every smoking tournament.
I see MANY others doing the same thing, standing outside, getting "fresh" air. Even the smokers do this on a regular basis.
The room owners don't realize that they are losing revenue from those who aren't inside of their establishment but I guess they aren't hurting for the extra cash.
I would prefer to be sitting in the pool room, spending money at the establishment but myself and other smoking and non-smoking patrons are going outside of the poolroom between matches or when the smoke gets to irritating their eyes and lungs.
Of the 313 million people in the USA approximately 20% (62 million people) use tobacco. In general, one in every five people uses tobacco. About 60% of smokers in the US are adult (or young adult) males who are probably the largest percentage of people at a pool tournament. It could well be that two in five people at a pool tournament use tobacco.
Given this large group of people who smoke and pay a heavy social and financial burden for their voluntary behavior it seems that some effort could be made to accommodate to their preferences. Tournaments could provide some sort of accommodations for those who smoke other than standing in a parking lot.
The majority may prefer no smoking at the pool table but those who operate these organizations would be well advised to create some sort of accommodations for those who use tobacco.
While many things are said about people who smoke, smokers are usually not the people who create a disturbance based on their choices. As with any social group, a small percentage of rude and disruptive people create an image about a whole class of people.
I think if the general reader were to go back through this thread, smokers, or those who advocate for tolerance, have not lobbied for smoking at tournaments. In fact given the large numbers of people who voted for no smoking at tournaents and the known numbers of smokers, it would appear that a great many people who use tobacco have voted for no smoking at touraments. Of course it is also true that many who smoke are among the less educated and quite possibly do not visit AZB so it cannot be estimated how many smokers voted for no smoking at tournamnts.
Given this large group of people who smoke and pay a heavy social and financial burden for their voluntary behavior it seems that some effort could be made to accommodate to their preferences. Tournaments could provide some sort of accommodations for those who smoke other than standing in a parking lot.
The majority may prefer no smoking at the pool table but those who operate these organizations would be well advised to create some sort of accommodations for those who use tobacco.
While many things are said about people who smoke, smokers are usually not the people who create a disturbance based on their choices. As with any social group, a small percentage of rude and disruptive people create an image about a whole class of people.
I think if the general reader were to go back through this thread, smokers, or those who advocate for tolerance, have not lobbied for smoking at tournaments. In fact given the large numbers of people who voted for no smoking at tournaents and the known numbers of smokers, it would appear that a great many people who use tobacco have voted for no smoking at touraments. Of course it is also true that many who smoke are among the less educated and quite possibly do not visit AZB so it cannot be estimated how many smokers voted for no smoking at tournamnts.
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Joe:
I agree with you on the unfortunate stereotyping thing. Often those few that add obnoxious behaviors onto their already overt habit, tend to ruin it for those smokers that are courteous. And the backlash is severe, with a whole group suffering the consequences of a few.
Actually, I think it is these few that JoeyA's lobbying efforts [of no smoking between opponents in a tourney] are targeted. (Any my apologies to JoeyA for not being clear in my post above -- I posted quickly because I had to get back to what I was doing, and as a result, the wording suffered.)
Some of my best friends are smokers. Some of my family smoke. So the effort here is not so much an outright ban (albeit it *is* coming, I think noone can deny that). But rather, just between opponents in a match. As long as the air filtration system in the premises is working, and the patrons are not suffering needlessly (e.g. where JoeyA describes even smokers have to go outside to get good air -- now that's pretty bad!), then no harm done.
-Sean
Along those lines, JoeyA and Sean...
I'm a member of The Eagles club, fraternal organization, and private club. As such, it is exempt from the indoor smoking ban here in Maine.
Fortunately for me, our club voted to follow the rest of the state, and require smoking to be outside. They created a nice fenced in patio area (fenced in so that patrons can take their drinks out with them. There are several tables and chairs for the temperate part of the year. There is an enclosed area within the patio to protect folks from the elements, complete with a heater, for this time of year.
It can be done.
Regardless, the other Eagles clubs in the state have not required folks to go outside. The clubs have a travelling tournament, once a month, at all the various clubs around the state. I find it amusing when many of our members, who are smokers, come back and complain that they aren't going again, because of all the smoke.
I'm a member of The Eagles club, fraternal organization, and private club. As such, it is exempt from the indoor smoking ban here in Maine.
Fortunately for me, our club voted to follow the rest of the state, and require smoking to be outside. They created a nice fenced in patio area (fenced in so that patrons can take their drinks out with them. There are several tables and chairs for the temperate part of the year. There is an enclosed area within the patio to protect folks from the elements, complete with a heater, for this time of year.
It can be done.
Regardless, the other Eagles clubs in the state have not required folks to go outside. The clubs have a travelling tournament, once a month, at all the various clubs around the state. I find it amusing when many of our members, who are smokers, come back and complain that they aren't going again, because of all the smoke.
It is that bad. Louisiana's humidity is stifling but the smokers and the non-smokers alike, head for the exit as soon as opportunity presents itself. One day, I may make a video of the people who leave the smoking pool tournament room for fresh air.
If the smokers are honest and most are, they would agree that they can smoke before a match and after a match without suffering a panic attack during the match. Demanding a right to smoke during a tournament match is more about poking their opponent in the eye (figuratively and literally speaking)during the match to gain an advantage than it is about settling one's nerves.
Seriously, why would a smoker or non-smoker argue against this?
I'm betting that the people arguing against this, just like to argue OR they just don't want to see this dirty advantage removed from their modus operandi.
Once again, doesn't everyone want to see these tournaments moved along in the quickest fashion?
Once again, doesn't everyone want to see each player to have a fair shake at the pool table?
Once again, do you really believe that you have a right to poison the immediate area around your opponent with smoke, intentionally or unintentionally?
Joey just start playing in a gas mask. Then I am 100% sure there smoking wouldnt be the biggest shark move at the table.
I smoke. It does settle you whether you believe it or not. It's a great way to pass the time while you are getting run out on also.
I smoke. It does settle you whether you believe it or not. It's a great way to pass the time while you are getting run out on also.
"The choice is simple and easy to understand. You do not have to be in the state of Louisiana. It is this state's privilege to run its weather the way it sees fit, and you are just a visitor."
-Sean <-- knows he's going to catch h*ll over that one, hoo boy...
True story. You DON'T have to live in Louisiana if you don't want to. That's the beauty of being human. And Louisiana is going to run its weather in whatever way it wants...why don't you try banning rain?? See how far that gets you.
Sound ridiculous? That's what you sound like. You don't like rain? There are other places to live. You don't like smoking? There are other places to go.
you seem to feel that a pool hall is a smokers private club. it's not. you're welcome to stay or go as you please, but don't pollute my air.
The choice is simple and easy to understand.
Non smokers do not have to enter where smokers are.
It is a legal product.
The government sells licenses to sell the product.
It is not as if I were promoting the smoking of commonly known
illegal substances.