Snooker and Fargo

thebark

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After watching the Kenny Pagulayan match, which was quite entertaining, I wondered what Alex's snooker fargo would be.If Judd Trump was an 840 I'm guessing Alex would be around 730. Nobody has a higher opinion of Alex's cuemanship than I do but my God the top 5 in snooker are at a stratospheric level. It would be interesting to see a power index like Fargo applied to snooker. Comments?
 

kingwang

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A 110 difference seems a little too low, I would expect the gap to be more. 110 means that on average, Alex would win 1 frame for every 2 that Trump wins. It's definitely plausible and in the ballpark, but I wouldn't bet on it.

For reference, Trump's record vs Mitchell Mann (#118 ranking) is 7-2, vs Ken Doherty (#121) is 14-6, and Alex is probably not better than those at the bottom of the WST.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After watching the Kenny Pagulayan match, which was quite entertaining, I wondered what Alex's snooker fargo would be.If Judd Trump was an 840 I'm guessing Alex would be around 730. Nobody has a higher opinion of Alex's cuemanship than I do but my God the top 5 in snooker are at a stratospheric level. It would be interesting to see a power index like Fargo applied to snooker. Comments?
not even that close. Pag's gets BAR-B-Q'd by any of the top WST guys.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
for reference FSR beat martin o'donnell in a spanish snooker tournament.

i would guess o'donnell is around rank 60. but the difference between a 60 ranked snooker player and judd trump is gigantic. according to cue tracker they have played 7 times and judd has won all 7. o'donnell has won as most 3 frames against trump.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think snooker would fit into the FR paradigm very well as snooker frames just have too much performance data baked into single frames. Sort of like a single 3 cushion race to 25 or something similar. It's just too binary for measuring pros and amateurs together. Maybe you could just measure the pros, but if including amateurs -- at some point an amateur could play a professional 100 frames and never win a single one.

So what would Alex be in snooker? I think you're really close when just thinking about his aptitude, but how he would fare against the big boys is way beyond just a 100 point differential.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think snooker would fit into the FR paradigm very well as snooker frames just have too much performance data baked into single frames. Sort of like a single 3 cushion race to 25 or something similar. It's just too binary for measuring pros and amateurs together. Maybe you could just measure the pros, but if including amateurs -- at some point an amateur could play a professional 100 frames and never win a single one.

So what would Alex be in snooker? I think you're really close when just thinking about his aptitude, but how he would fare against the big boys is way beyond just a 100 point differential.

Fargo Ratings would work fine for Snooker. But if we were doing snooker, we would not use frame wins as the basic unit; we would use points. And where we only had frame scores, we'd convert to some canonical point score that left it apples to apples. Then a 100 point gap would not be 2-to-1 in chance of winning the frame but rather a 2-to-1 chance of scoring a point.

Imagine the basic unit of 9-Ball was a race to 3, that when someone said "do you want to play a "game" of 9-Ball?" they meant a race to 3. With that longer session as a "game," a 53 point gap (rather than a 100 point gap) of current Fargo Ratings would be 2-to-1.

We essentially like the scoring unit to be as small as possible--single rack of 9-Ball, snooker point, straight-pool point, etc.
 

Flakeandrun

Well-known member
for reference FSR beat martin o'donnell in a spanish snooker tournament.

i would guess o'donnell is around rank 60. but the difference between a 60 ranked snooker player and judd trump is gigantic. according to cue tracker they have played 7 times and judd has won all 7. o'donnell has won as most 3 frames against trump.
FSR Vs Pagulayan - I'd watch that
 

thebark

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that Alex,Cory and Chris Melling all went to the qualifying school, but came up short.
 

pt109

Pagulayan chalk and clothing
Silver Member
Fargo Ratings would work fine for Snooker. But if we were doing snooker, we would not use frame wins as the basic unit; we would use points. And where we only had frame scores, we'd convert to some canonical point score that left it apples to apples. Then a 100 point gap would not be 2-to-1 in chance of winning the frame but rather a 2-to-1 chance of scoring a point.

Imagine the basic unit of 9-Ball was a race to 3, that when someone said "do you want to play a "game" of 9-Ball?" they meant a race to 3. With that longer session as a "game," a 53 point gap (rather than a 100 point gap) of current Fargo Ratings would be 2-to-1.

We essentially like the scoring unit to be as small as possible--single rack of 9-Ball, snooker point, straight-pool point, etc.
The most important run in snooker is 73 from the start…..it gets a bit complicated if you use anything but ‘games won’.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I
Fargo Ratings would work fine for Snooker. But if we were doing snooker, we would not use frame wins as the basic unit; we would use points. And where we only had frame scores, we'd convert to some canonical point score that left it apples to apples. Then a 100 point gap would not be 2-to-1 in chance of winning the frame but rather a 2-to-1 chance of scoring a point.

Imagine the basic unit of 9-Ball was a race to 3, that when someone said "do you want to play a "game" of 9-Ball?" they meant a race to 3. With that longer session as a "game," a 53 point gap (rather than a 100 point gap) of current Fargo Ratings would be 2-to-1.

We essentially like the scoring unit to be as small as possible--single rack of 9-Ball, snooker point, straight-pool point, etc.
The points thing makes sense but I can't quite picture how it would play out with actual ratings. Could you create 2 hypothetical players for me, by chance?

On the smallest possible scoring unit -- You do use a one-pocket rack and that certainly has more info than an individual rack of 9 ball. Does that about reach the limit of the usable scoring limit?
 

Thunder Thighs

cuejunction.com
Silver Member
Snooker players and fans are probably some of the most resistant to change people around. Introducing something like a Fargo rating to the game will definitely garner opposition from the land of Elkmaster tips and Master chalk.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
My suspicion is that if you were able to put snooker players on a relative Fargo rating to compare standards, someone like Judd would be in the 870s or 880s. There has been a lot of coaching and money making opportunities (relatively speaking) for a while now that it wouldn’t be surprising if it drove competition levels higher.

The gap between the top 50 and top amateurs is so much more pronounced. You will see guys at the IBSF or WSF Championships record 5 centuries and a dozen 50+ breaks during the event and then struggle to win a match on the WST.

So I think a 730-750 snooker rating for Alex is reasonable if he is in practice, but that would mean that Trump would have to be well over 100 points higher than Alex.
 
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