Again pretend what? What the **** are you talking about?
So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?
- Thread starter CreeDo
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Again pretend what? What the **** are you talking about?
Oh that. No I want to pretend that we have CONCLUSIVE evidence that it did so we can stop relying on hearsay and judgemental interpretation and projection.
Because that's all you have now.
Hearsay and projection. Nothing else. Jay Helfert can't go to court and say that he has proof that a dump happened he can only say he believes it did.
And he was there.
You weren't, none of us except Jay was. And he even said he had no idea until the finals...and even then he still had no idea because it is ONLY his opinion.
I don't need to pretend anything. Show me some real evidence that is more than I heard a guy saying this about the other guy.....when you do, then I will say ok, that is clear, they dumped. Until then, it's innocent until proven guilty for me.
I don't lightly accuse people of felonies. I guess it's easier for others to slander and defame.
Good for you. How did you know it happened? Did someone confess to you? Who was it?
So Jay's opinion confirms yours? That's called confirmation bias.
Anyway, if it happened then shame on them. If it didn't shame on you.
Ok. So you have never seen a combo like that missed EVER?
I went back and looked at it, it's slightly off angle.
I have to say Buddy is the WORST dumper I have ever seen. He allows the match to go hill hill and then runs out to a combo you think it's wired.
I guess I would think that Buddy wouldn't let the match get anywhere close to hill/hill if he wanted to dump the match.
Funny that we don't have the WHOLE match to look at and analyze. Seems like whoever has it very selectively posted what they wanted to youtube.
John, you are just being very naive. You know as well as anyone, that outside of the participants actually admitting it, there is NO way to actually PROVE a dump. And, why on earth would the participants EVER admit to dumping?
You keep acting like this event 23 years ago in new news and a one time thing. It's not. You ask why the media never picked up on it. Simple, while we are free to speculate on here, a news media better have the facts and be able to back them up. You can't back up a fix very often. Look no further than last years Mosconi Cup. Many know what went down there, yet the media kept quite about it all. Why? Because they can't prove it happened. They know it did, it was obvious it did, but they can't prove it. Despite not being able to prove it, Matchroom took steps to help prevent it in the future. Why do you think there is a whole new approach to picking players and captains? Yet, for some reason, everyone wants to keep it "hush hush". Even on here.
There is an old saying that says that if you really want to know what is going on, just follow the money. It's always been that way in pool. If two guys are playing, and there is a local rail betting going on, just find out how the rail is betting and bet on the guy that is supposed to lose. You will win more $$ that way over time.
Some of you guys act like dumping never or rarely happens. It happens a lot more than people realize.
Not naive at all. Just not so quick to condemn. As I said for I think now the 143rd time I am not saying it didn't happen I am saying I THINK it didn't based on the evidence presented.
What unprovable thing happened at the Mosconi Cup? Sorry I didn't really follow it.
Dude, if Buddy REALLY wanted to lose the set then he would have never gotten past five games.
Let's back this up a minute and think about it.
IF for some reason Mike played so horrible that Buddy was forced to win the set then what? They lose 2200 and win whatever was bet on Buddy and chop up the 50k.
There is no way on the planet in my opinion that Buddy runs down to that combination if he is trying to lose. No way on the earth does he let it get that close. He could have easily missed the five ball acting like he was trying to get shape and no one would have thought it was purposefully missed.
Kinda really stupid to run it all the way down to the combination where the chances to dog it on purpose are dwindled to just one. Why not rattle the six?
I don't see it the way you do and I am content to agree to disagree. And if I ever find out you're right I will humbly say I was wrong and mourn another pool hero's tarnished legend.
Agree that he did not make the dump look good, but that was mostly LeBrons fault. He was dogging his brains out and didn't leave Buddy much of a chance, other than to take it to the hill. But we DO have the whole match. I've all ready posted the links. I don't know who the uploader is, but he did as all a great favor by putting these clips up for the world to see. Maybe next time someone gets a "bright" idea like this (dumping), they will think twice about it.It's divided into two clips. The first clip also shows Howard dumping to LeBron, but at least he makes it look good. Any editing is by ESPN, I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkMpqzvk-OY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s
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They lose 4,200 x 7 = $29,400 as 7 players each had 200 at least on Mike @ 20 to 1
as that was the max bet. But the players could have had more than one person put in bets for them.
Nothing was bet on Buddy because all seven players knew Mike was going
to win. Helooooo !!!
Where do you get $2,200 from ???
The match as broadcast by ESPN rack by rack. I've made the shots I thought were suspect in bold type.
Rack 1. Mike LeBron breaks, makes a ball and then misses a combination. Buddy tries a bank and misses. LeBron shoots a safe. Hall misses a one rail kick he wouldn't miss again in a million years, according to Rempe. LeBron gets ball in hand and runs out.
Rack 2. Hall makes 9 ball on the break and it is spotted. Hall makes the 1 and 2 and misses the 3, leaving it hanging in the pocket. In Buddys defense the rails on this table seem very dead and he came up short on the 3 possibly for that reason. The cut on the 3 that he missed was relatively difficult. Maybe not for a pro, but it is missable for sure. LeBron runs out from there. Score is now 1-1
Rack 6. Score is 3-2. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes the 1 and the 7 on a combination and is out of position. Plays a "safe" on the 2 hanging it in the pocket. Mike LeBron makes it, but the dead rails get him and he is snookered. He fails a masse. Buddy has ball in hand and has to make the 3-9 combination. Score is 3-3
Rack 13. Buddy breaks and comes up dry. LeBron pushes out and gets it. He makes a nice jump shot. He runs to the 7 and then misses it badly. Buddy runs the 3 remaining balls. Score is 7-6 Hall.
Rack 14. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes a great carom shot but is snookered on the 1. Tries to bank the 1 and misses. LeBron safes him. Buddy tries a combination that does not look on (looks like it's pointing into the rail and has to be hit rail first to have a chance) and hangs a ball. LeBron runs out from there.
Rack 15 Buddy breaks and does not get a ball. LeBron plays a safe. Buddy tries a combination 1-9 that is very out of character. 20% shot at the very best. Leaves a hanger and LeBron runs out.
Rack 16 LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy tries a safe and accidentally makes the 1 in the side. He runs to the 7, IMO tries to scratch in the side, but fails and then misses the 8 very badly. LeBron is left over the 9 ball and misses the 8 very badly. Buddy is left a hanger and must run out.
Rack 17 Buddy Hall breaks and gets 2 balls on the break. He has a Mickey Mouse run out for the cash! He scratches on the one ball in the exact same way he almost scratched in the rack before! LeBron has ball in hand and 5 balls that must be ran to get to the 8-9 combination. He misses on the 2 ball! Buddy plays a weird shot on the 2 and almost scratches, instead he gets a great position on the 5, purely by accident. On the 5 IMO he tries to get safe behind the 8 but he comes up short (dead cushion again, perhaps) and now has perfect position and has to run to the combination, which he misses terribly. LeBron makes a good rail first on the 8 and a nice shot on the 9 for the win. Then some terrible acting ensues.
Rack 1. Mike LeBron breaks, makes a ball and then misses a combination. Buddy tries a bank and misses. LeBron shoots a safe. Hall misses a one rail kick he wouldn't miss again in a million years, according to Rempe. LeBron gets ball in hand and runs out.
Rack 2. Hall makes 9 ball on the break and it is spotted. Hall makes the 1 and 2 and misses the 3, leaving it hanging in the pocket. In Buddys defense the rails on this table seem very dead and he came up short on the 3 possibly for that reason. The cut on the 3 that he missed was relatively difficult. Maybe not for a pro, but it is missable for sure. LeBron runs out from there. Score is now 1-1
Rack 6. Score is 3-2. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes the 1 and the 7 on a combination and is out of position. Plays a "safe" on the 2 hanging it in the pocket. Mike LeBron makes it, but the dead rails get him and he is snookered. He fails a masse. Buddy has ball in hand and has to make the 3-9 combination. Score is 3-3
Rack 13. Buddy breaks and comes up dry. LeBron pushes out and gets it. He makes a nice jump shot. He runs to the 7 and then misses it badly. Buddy runs the 3 remaining balls. Score is 7-6 Hall.
Rack 14. LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy makes a great carom shot but is snookered on the 1. Tries to bank the 1 and misses. LeBron safes him. Buddy tries a combination that does not look on (looks like it's pointing into the rail and has to be hit rail first to have a chance) and hangs a ball. LeBron runs out from there.
Rack 15 Buddy breaks and does not get a ball. LeBron plays a safe. Buddy tries a combination 1-9 that is very out of character. 20% shot at the very best. Leaves a hanger and LeBron runs out.
Rack 16 LeBron breaks and comes up dry. Buddy tries a safe and accidentally makes the 1 in the side. He runs to the 7, IMO tries to scratch in the side, but fails and then misses the 8 very badly. LeBron is left over the 9 ball and misses the 8 very badly. Buddy is left a hanger and must run out.
Rack 17 Buddy Hall breaks and gets 2 balls on the break. He has a Mickey Mouse run out for the cash! He scratches on the one ball in the exact same way he almost scratched in the rack before! LeBron has ball in hand and 5 balls that must be ran to get to the 8-9 combination. He misses on the 2 ball! Buddy plays a weird shot on the 2 and almost scratches, instead he gets a great position on the 5, purely by accident. On the 5 IMO he tries to get safe behind the 8 but he comes up short (dead cushion again, perhaps) and now has perfect position and has to run to the combination, which he misses terribly. LeBron makes a good rail first on the 8 and a nice shot on the 9 for the win. Then some terrible acting ensues.
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I don't think anyone's condemning anyone here, but as far as tarnishing someone's legacie ! Well who's faults that ??
Wonder if Jays getting any flack over his comments from any of the dumpers?
Wouldn't you giv'em a piece of your mind if you were innocent ?
Wonder if Jays getting any flack over his comments from any of the dumpers?
Wouldn't you giv'em a piece of your mind if you were innocent ?
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Denial is not a river in Egypt.
One of the worst attempts at dumping I've ever seen. Its almost laughable at how shoddy it was. The commentators kept chiming on at how 50k can make a player make these mistakes...not when their stroke and game are etched into every fiber of a player such as Buddy. His stroke and decision making should be capable of holding up for any amount of cash. He proves this by the in-offs he executed...making the cue ball scratch is harder than it looks.
That being said, the 1985 World Snooker Championship final between Steve Davis and Dennis Taylor could be viewed as a dump. Neither could pot the final black for the life in them. It comes down to personal opinion in the end.
That being said, the 1985 World Snooker Championship final between Steve Davis and Dennis Taylor could be viewed as a dump. Neither could pot the final black for the life in them. It comes down to personal opinion in the end.
Thanks I missed the middle games. I was focused on the last three games in the set.
I still disagree that it was dumping. But like I said it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
I also don't agree that Lebron was dogging his brains out. I think if you really look he only missed one really easy shot and that was the 2 ball in the second to last game. The five in the side that he missed was simply rushed.
Other than that he ran out several racks, one of them where he pushed to a jump shot and Buddy gave him the push back and Lebron jumped to make the one and ran out a clustered rack. To me if Buddy was dumping then that was a perfect opportunity to take the jump shot and dog it giving Lebron ball in hand.
And the David Howard match? Why bother running out each rack to go 3:0 in front if you are dumping? He had several fairly tough shots he could have easily missed with no one thinking dump. Instead he took on every tough shot and made them. Lebron ran a rack, got an early two-nine and then David ran out another rack and dogged the nine to make it 3:3.
Anyway, based on the video I don't see the dumping. Based on the silly 20:1 odds I can definitely see the temptation. But then I am puzzled that there were only 11 bets placed, according to Jay, on Mike. I mean honestly if the fix is in then why not make way more than that. Between seven players who are all allegedly in to insure that Mike wins they can't muster up more than 11 bets? These are guys who could all make a phone call and get staked over the phone from anywhere in America. I just feel that there would have been a long line to bet on Mike if seven players knew it was a sure thing.
Let's assume though that it wasn't a fix, just for the sake of argument. If you were a player wouldn't you have someone go get you a $200 bet just in case Mike won? So my thought is that IF there wasn't a fix then it wouldn't be unusal for every one of the players to have a bet down on Mike anyway because of the ridiculous odds.
I also feel that it probably would have been something like an all in or no one's in type of deal because if one person didn't go along then there would have to be really hard feelings with that person watching it go down and keeping quiet.
Just lots of things don't add up for me. Maybe it's my lawyer side kicking in but on the face of it it just seems like a big cluster**** to have seven players conspire to rob the book, in Vegas, at the inaugural COC event.
I can see a saver because of the top heavy payout, I can see everyone having a bet down through shills. That's all logical to me. What's not logical is the small number of bets and the risk that goes along with robbing a casino in Las Vegas where both the casino AND the law takes it extremely seriously. As well that kind of money makes it a federal crime, conspiracy, robbery, probably racketeering. Thinking about it like that makes me feel that it's not likely.
Dammit I am really wasting time here. I will really bow out now. Thanks for all those who CONVERSED with civility in discussing this. If nothing else we had some stimulating points. The snooker match where Steve Davis lost after being so far ahead was a good counterpoint to illustrate that even top pros in snooker miss easy shots.
11x200 is 2200
That's the total amount of tickets that were bet on Mike according to Jay.
The players themselves were not allowed to bet also according to Jay.
My thinking is that if they all knew for sure there was a fix and they all agreed to chop the 50k then why not bet as much as possible on Mike?
Why wasn't there 20,000 bet on Mike?
As for no one betting on Buddy, we don't know that. We don't know what was bet on anyone else and we only have Jay's statement that only 11 bets were placed on Mike.
So to me that's really low amount if the fix was in. The only spoiler would have been Allen winning the whole thing but to me that would have still been worth it if each of them had arranged to buy five tickets and there was a total 7000 bet on Lebron by the player's shills. And you can't tell me that these guys wouldn't have shared this with their closest backers who also would have wanted to get their bets in. I just don't understand the low number considering the amount of people involved. Mathematically it doesn't make sense if a large group of people know that it's a sure thing why the number of bets wouldn't be at the very least 2x the number of people who know about it.
Anyway, it's all academic for me. Whenever anyone is accused of anything wrong on this forum I always try to look deeper rather than instantly go straight to condemnation. I would rather come to my conclusion based on trying to see all perspectives rather than just one.