So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

[The_JV]

When I stained the rail blinds and legs on my GCI I couldn't find a color stain that matched the rails. I ended up with at least 12 small cans of stain from I think 3 different manufacturers. In the end I started mixing shades together to get the desired results. Its not a perfect match but it was closer than what was available in the can.

Fortunately for me I have nothing to match up against. This allowed me to simply 'cherry pick' what I thought would look nice and run with it. The oem apron and legs will eventually end up the same colour the rails will be. Once I had sanded down the finish to the bare oak, the wife wanted me just to clear coat it. Of course ignoring the goals of the one doing all the work, who happens to also be the person who will be looking at the table 95% of the time...lol

When I eventually get to the apron/legs, I'll have other hurdles to jump over. Those sections of the table are nothing more than partical board with a thin laminated layer of oak. Odds are greatly within the likelyhood of having to just toss them and build something new. I highly doubt there will be enough oak material to allow me to sand/stain.

 

[The_JV]

Been doing my best to get through the staining process. Watching the milestone unfold has got me rejuvenated on the project. It also made me snap a bunch of progress pics

I thought I had a close up of this corner. It's the section where I had to remove the hard maple extension and replace it with matching red oak. Well at the very least from a short distance you can't see the patch work. I'll have to snap another close up and replace the shot below.

With the rails winding down I started paying attention the wooden transitions. The stain looks glossy on the corners because these pics were taken shortly after the last coat had dried to the touch. The neighbouring rails have been drying out for several days in comparison. I also went far more aggressive with the 'wet time' on the coats with the corners. I wasn't concerned about variations in absorbtion over such a small area.

Once the clear poly has been applied, the 'glossy' look will balance out.

...and finally what I've been waiting to see. The aluminum trim under the corner...

So don't judge me by the current fit/finish. That corner piece is just loosely held in place and the pocket liner is just sitting in the hole without being fastened.

That aluminum has only been lightly hit with some wet 400g paper. It has a better 'brushed' finish in person then it shows in the pic. Not sure if I'm going to up the shine on that yet. Probably will for sake of the experiment. Easy enough to roll back to the brushed look.

 

[Lawnboy77]

Looks fantastic!

 

[The_JV]

Looks fantastic!

Thanks...

I got rushed out of completing my last post so here's the extra little bit that was on the editing room floor.

Although I think two rails have been fabricated in this fashion. Only one displays the patch work. I'm going to say 4 of the 6 rail sections are milled from a single piece of red oak. 2 of them are actually two separate pieces that have been glued up, then milled down. 1 of them has this glue up at a location that isn't very apparent. The last unfortunately has caused me fits trying to produce a consistent finish.

I screen shotted this pic from a video on my phone so forgive the fuzzy nature.

However you can clearly see the difference in grain pattern and more improtantly the notable variation in colour of the sap wood. ...Again, I'm not a wood finishing kind of guy so I don't understand the dynamics of why these two sections of wood are taking stain differently. I do know that the lower section has acted pretty much the same as the rest of the rails. That band across the top of this rail has almost completely refused to accept stain. So much so that I have had to resort to staining it separately.

I let that application stay for 15mins and it hardly advanced the finish. I resorted to the "dirty wiping" technique. That in essence is just 'brushing' with a rag damp with stain. The difficulty with that method is not producing a brushed texture. I found that I needed to allow the stain to dry slightly and then drag the damp rag across the surface with nearly no pressure. Anything more and it would wipe away what I needed to have the portion blend to the rest of the rail.

Here's the end result from a different angle.

Really close, but you can still make out the 'heavier' application of stain. I'm going to give it a day or so to dry and then knock it down with some steel wool. In the end, I think this one rail will be the one point of contention when people are critiquing the efforts.

 

[muskyed]

When using multiple coats of a topcoat finish, consider using gloss for all coats except the final coat, and that coat can be what ever look you would like, such as gloss, semigloss, or satin. Finished this way you will end up with a much more deeper, less muddy look, than if you put multiple coats of say satin, or semi gloss on. Also as to staining oak, or any wood for that matter, it is much easier to get a quality look with a gel stain. Much easier to get woods to match if some parts want to stain lighter or darker than others by how much you use, and how long it is left on. Also gel stains can easily be mixed to any tone desired.

 

[The_JV]

Thank you for the comments, but you lost me a little.

When using multiple coats of a top coat finish, consider using clear for all coats except the final coat, and that coat can be what ever look you would like, such as clear, semigloss, or satin. Finished this way you will end up with a much more deeper, less muddy look, than if you put multiple coats of say satin, or semi gloss on.

When you say "top coat finish" are you speaking of the poly top coat after staining has been completed..? So in my case I have this product already:

It says it's "Crystal Clear" but designated as a "semi-gloss". I simply have it in my head that the difference between 'satin', 'semi-gloss' and 'gloss', is just the amount of reflective quality it has. Shine if you will... Is there another designation that I guess is a "Crystal Clear, clear"...?

Also as to staining oak, or any wood for that matter, it is much easier to get a quality look with a gel stain. Much easier to get woods to match if some parts want to stain lighter or darker than others by how much you use, and how long it is left on. Also gel stains can easily be mixed to any tone desired.

Ya, I went down the road of stain/paint (aka: gel) originally. I will say that for this last rail with the varying wood absorbtion, it would be beneficial to have to pigment floating on top. That said... Otherwise I'm very happy I went down the road of the traditional water based stain. The whole 'dirty wiping' technique is just a much more difficult means to produce the same effect of a surface gel coat. It's not fun trying to find that sweet spot for that water based surface layer, but doable none the less.

I do appreciate the input.

 

[muskyed]

Yes, when I mentioned topcoat, I was referring to the poly. I guess I miss spoke and made it somewhat confusing when I said clear, should have written gloss. Sorry for the confusion. Not sure how my suggestions will relate to your poly topcoat, as I only use oil-based poly's. Tried a water based once and wasn't happy with the end result and appearance. Semi-gloss, satin, and on down just have progressively more additives to achieve the antigloss levels desired, and when multiple coats are used will progressively muddy up the look of the finish. You generally can get away with two coats of semigloss, but I would never use two coats of satin, and if I wanted a satin look, would always use gloss for the under coats before satin as a topcoat. You've got quite a project on your hands and will really appreciate your table more in the end. Keep up the good work. I will usually use 3 coats of poly and will most often use gloss for all 3 coats. To get the level of gloss I am after I will rub down the final coat with either 0000 steel wool loaded with Johnsons paste wax and just a little piece of steel wool will do, this should leave a somewhat satin to semigloss look. Also, will use a wax that has a very mild abrasive incorporated in it to rub down with, and this will leave a semi-gloss to gloss look depending on brand of wax. If a gloss look is the desired final result, I will then buff out. On oil-based poly, I would not rub out for at least 5 days, or buff out for at least a week. The rub out with steel wool and wax, or wax with abrasive should leave your surface nice and smooth, but do not do this then decide you need another coat of finish after, especially with oak, as you would never get all the wax out of the pores.

 

[The_JV]

One last update to bring the thread up to speed....

I just dug through this thread looking for what I thought was a suggestion made earlier that I could quote, but didn't find one. Regardless, somewhere either in this forum, or even possibly my conversation with Glen I received some great advice on how to finish my rails with the sights still place.

The trick...?..., clear nail polish.

After your done sanding down the rails, and subsequently polishing up the sights after that earlier rough sand. You coat them with a thin application of clear nail polish. The idea being that the nail polish will fill the remaining fine abrasions and protect the sight from stain. Once the staining has been completed and before you move on to clear coating. You remove the nail polish with a Q-tip and the typical polish remover. Even with a house full of ladies I thought it wise to buy my own special purpose clear nail polish.

Before removal:

After:

Definitely better than doubling back and lightly sanding off that stain on the sights. A special thanks whoever told me the nail polish trick. I'm assuming it was Glen

 

[The_JV]

Yes, when I mentioned topcoat, I was referring to the poly. I guess I miss spoke and made it somewhat confusing when I said clear, should have written gloss. Sorry for the confusion. Not sure how my suggestions will relate to your poly topcoat, as I only use oil-based poly's. Tried a water based once and wasn't happy with the end result and appearance. Semi-gloss, satin, and on down just have progressively more additives to achieve the antigloss levels desired, and when multiple coats are used will progressively muddy up the look of the finish. You generally can get away with two coats of semigloss, but I would never use two coats of satin, and if I wanted a satin look, would always use gloss for the under coats before satin as a topcoat. You've got quite a project on your hands and will really appreciate your table more in the end. Keep up the good work. I will usually use 3 coats of poly and will most often use gloss for all 3 coats. To get the level of gloss I am after I will rub down the final coat with either 0000 steel wool loaded with Johnsons paste wax and just a little piece of steel wool will do, this should leave a somewhat satin to semigloss look. Also, will use a wax that has a very mild abrasive incorporated in it to rub down with, and this will leave a semi-gloss to gloss look depending on brand of wax. If a gloss look is the desired final result, I will then buff out. On oil-based poly, I would not rub out for at least 5 days, or buff out for at least a week. The rub out with steel wool and wax, or wax with abrasive should leave your surface nice and smooth, but do not do this then decide you need another coat of finish after, especially with oak, as you would never get all the wax out of the pores.

Excellent... Thank you for breaking it down for me.

I really haven't decided on a poly finish coat count yet. All seem to suggest a minimum of 2. I haven't found an example of someone going beyond 4. Right now I figure the middle ground of 3, will be the initial goal.

Unless the water starts to muddy. I suppose more is better. Probably reach the point of diminishing returns in short order though.

I doubt I'll start applying the clear until next week. Should provide me amble time to research application methods

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Yes, when I mentioned topcoat, I was referring to the poly. I guess I miss spoke and made it somewhat confusing when I said clear, should have written gloss. Sorry for the confusion. Not sure how my suggestions will relate to your poly topcoat, as I only use oil-based poly's. Tried a water based once and wasn't happy with the end result and appearance. Semi-gloss, satin, and on down just have progressively more additives to achieve the antigloss levels desired, and when multiple coats are used will progressively muddy up the look of the finish. You generally can get away with two coats of semigloss, but I would never use two coats of satin, and if I wanted a satin look, would always use gloss for the under coats before satin as a topcoat. You've got quite a project on your hands and will really appreciate your table more in the end. Keep up the good work. I will usually use 3 coats of poly and will most often use gloss for all 3 coats. To get the level of gloss I am after I will rub down the final coat with either 0000 steel wool loaded with Johnsons paste wax and just a little piece of steel wool will do, this should leave a somewhat satin to semigloss look. Also, will use a wax that has a very mild abrasive incorporated in it to rub down with, and this will leave a semi-gloss to gloss look depending on brand of wax. If a gloss look is the desired final result, I will then buff out. On oil-based poly, I would not rub out for at least 5 days, or buff out for at least a week. The rub out with steel wool and wax, or wax with abrasive should leave your surface nice and smooth, but do not do this then decide you need another coat of finish after, especially with oak, as you would never get all the wax out of the pores.

Well said. 'semi-gloss' and 'matte' are code for, 'we threw some garbage in the finish'.

 

[muskyed]

Might want to try a scrap piece of oak first to see what multiple top coats look like.

 

[The_JV]

Might want to try a scrap piece of oak first to see what multiple top coats look like.

Honestly, for the cost. I'll probably just buy a can of the gloss poly and not bother with the experiment.

If my memory serves. I think I paid a mere ~$10 less for the nail polish then I did for the can of semi-gloss poly...lol

 

[kid]

What are you planning to do with the aprons, legs and stretchers?


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant AzBilliards Forums

 

[Ssonerai]

Dunno how i missed this one, but really appreciate you posting!
(Can only say that this was the first year in my life i got to play at being a ski bum, so until the snows started melting, i did not spend much time on here this past winter )

Just finished page 4, looking forward to the rest in another couple sittings.
Rails are gorgeous, ten x as good as they ever were from the factory!
Plus that nice development of the corner including the almuminum insert.

I did read the last couple pages before diving back to the beginning -
you comment about the grain and some difficulties staining, which you then solved quite nicely.
The odd rail is made of quarter sawn stock (or sometimes called "vertical grade"). This is a board which was either intentionally sawn radially to the heart of the log, or was part of the natural run when "slab sawing" as the cuts approach the center of the log anyway.

All oak should be quarter sawn, for best stability.
A full VG board shrinks and expands seasonally at about 1/2 the rate of a full slab sawn board for the same width. Conversely, it does (logically) shrink/expand more in thickness than the slab sawn piece.

In oak,, QS shows the ray fleck, slab sawn does not.
QS vs slab takes stain "differently" as you noticed.
Combined, there is a much different feel between constructions made of one vs the other.

It's not your stain issue, you handled that part brilliantly. It was the manufacturer's choice (or lack of caring and of sorting) to mix the types of sawing in the same feature area; which behave & appear almost like 2 different kinds of wood. In that rail, as you noted, it was compounded by gluing up 2 separate pieces.

It's a beautiful job.

smt

 

[The_JV]

What are you planning to do with the aprons, legs and stretchers?

Not much option beyond replacing/rebuilding them.

The legs and stretchers as designed will be simple enough. If I'm going through the effort though. I may as well re-invent them. Get my timber frame wood working groove on.

The apron will take some level of extra attention. The stock bits and pieces won't work with the revamped corners without some manlipulation, and being laminated partical board a refinishing is not an option. ...So why bother with what I have. Maybe I'll make a lttle book shelf out of them...lol.

I had envisioned carrying through the aluminum accents from the rail corners down into the apron. Producing a casting for the purpose is something I'm fully outfitted for already, so it seems like a fun tangent project.

I have an attached garage conversion creeping up on the project short list. The plan is to move the table into the space once that is complete, so I may just hold off on the apron/base aspects till that move happens.

 

[The_JV]

Dunno how i missed this one, but really appreciate you posting!

No prob.... I enjoy documenting my diy attempts

Just finished page 4, looking forward to the rest in another couple sittings.

My apologies. I do tend to get a little long winded....lol

Rails are gorgeous, ten x as good as they ever were from the factory!
Plus that nice development of the corner including the almuminum insert.

I have to be fair to Canada Billiards. I believe the 'Celebrity' model is a budget offering. Fit/finish isn't at the fore front. Stepping it up a notch or two wasn't all that difficult. However I appreciate the kind words.

It's not your stain issue, you handled that part brilliantly. It was the manufacturer's choice (or lack of caring and of sorting) to mix the types of sawing in the same feature area; which behave & appear almost like 2 different kinds of wood. In that rail, as you noted, it was compounded by gluing up 2 separate pieces.

I think the above boils back down to the 'budget' nature of this particular model. The original finish was quite heavy/dark and I'd venture to say maybe even a gel type stain. It hid the varying grains of the glued up rail quite well. Save the money on the wood and use an extra helping on the finish I suppose.

It's a beautiful job.

Thanks... I honestly think it looks better in person then it does in the pics...lol. Camera shows all I suppose.

 

[Ssonerai]

The original finish was quite heavy/dark and I'd venture to say maybe even a gel type stain. It hid the varying grains of the glued up rail quite well. Save the money on the wood and use an extra helping on the finish I suppose.

They may have pre-stained the rails quickly to darken the grain lines; but i doubt it was a fancy process.
In econo mode, everything is about speed. So any stain would have been quick drying and/or quick wiping. Possibly shot with toner instead of stain. But as someone else mentioned, more likely the toner was in the finish. Maybe both. My guess would be quick wipe-down with dark stain, wipe offf, dry, then load up the finish with toner & shoot a specified number of coats. Probably only 2, but maybe 3. That's the easiest fastest way to keep your product looking uniform.

Again, some simply shoot a toner coat - a guy with practice can make all the parts look about the same color value with only minor effort, but it muddies all the grain and wood. Then shoot on some clears, or lightly toned top coats.

The mode of finish deterioration in your early shots is suggestive of short finishes with toners or other additives.
There's nothing wrong with a few % toner, but loading it up can make it less durable in the long term, at least the old stuff.

 

[The_JV]

Ok, so after all the solid info about poly coating and the suggestion to go with a complete gloss clear for the preliminary coats, and to finish with the semi-gloss. I completely forgot until I had laid down the first coat of semi-gloss....lol. I wasn't about to attempt removing that first coat so I just ran with it.

I also followed the suggestion of nearly every YT vid I watched and did a light knock down with steel wool. However, and after the fact, I read the instructions on the poly coat can and it clearly states (in all caps I may add), "DO NOT USE STEEL WOOL"....lol

So, I'm batting a 1000 at the moment. All that said, I'm fairly happy with the result thus far.

Now that closest rail was lightly sanded with some 320g before it's last coat. I got 'newb stressed' when I saw what was happening to the finish with that light sanding. Also, I don't know if I've been applying the poly coats too thinly, but I easily broke through it and took off the stained finish near the pocket. Should be easy enough to touch up before the last poly coat, so I'm not too concerned now. The corner cap hasn't been sanded down at all. I've let the poly cure for a couple of days now, so it should sand nicely. Thinking I'll hit it with some 400g I have kicking around to knock down the tall brush marks (used sponge brush). Then use a fine bristle brush for the last application. Buff to shine and call it done.

For shits and giggles I quickly threw together one of the corners to get a sense of the some what final product.

You can see the removed stain in that first pic along the seam. My plan is to just "dirty wipe" it and let it cure for a couple of days before the last coat of poly.

The aluminum is haphazardly 'brushed' with 400g paper. I think I'll kick that up into the 1000g realm. It still won't appear polished at that point, but have a bit more of a shine that I was hoping for. The pocket liners are still just sitting in the holes without fasteners. Finally, I still need to address the removal of more material in the cap sections to avoid undue abuse from hard hit shots. There's tons of meat on the corners so that's not a problem. The sides on the other hand will be touchy. I'm thinking I may work in a metal bar to bridge that gap and endure the abuse.

Thanks for watching

 

[gazman100]

Ok, so after all the solid info about poly coating and the suggestion to go with a complete gloss clear for the preliminary coats, and to finish with the semi-gloss. I completely forgot until I had laid down the first coat of semi-gloss....lol. I wasn't about to attempt removing that first coat so I just ran with it.

I also followed the suggestion of nearly every YT vid I watched and did a light knock down with steel wool. However, and after the fact, I read the instructions on the poly coat can and it clearly states (in all caps I may add), "DO NOT USE STEEL WOOL"....lol

So, I'm batting a 1000 at the moment. All that said, I'm fairly happy with the result thus far.

View attachment 640368View attachment 640370View attachment 640371

Now that closest rail was lightly sanded with some 320g before it's last coat. I got 'newb stressed' when I saw what was happening to the finish with that light sanding. Also, I don't know if I've been applying the poly coats too thinly, but I easily broke through it and took off the stained finish near the pocket. Should be easy enough to touch up before the last poly coat, so I'm not too concerned now. The corner cap hasn't been sanded down at all. I've let the poly cure for a couple of days now, so it should sand nicely. Thinking I'll hit it with some 400g I have kicking around to knock down the tall brush marks (used sponge brush). Then use a fine bristle brush for the last application. Buff to shine and call it done.

For shits and giggles I quickly threw together one of the corners to get a sense of the some what final product.
View attachment 640372View attachment 640373
You can see the removed stain in that first pic along the seam. My plan is to just "dirty wipe" it and let it cure for a couple of days before the last coat of poly.

The aluminum is haphazardly 'brushed' with 400g paper. I think I'll kick that up into the 1000g realm. It still won't appear polished at that point, but have a bit more of a shine that I was hoping for. The pocket liners are still just sitting in the holes without fasteners. Finally, I still need to address the removal of more material in the cap sections to avoid undue abuse from hard hit shots. There's tons of meat on the corners so that's not a problem. The sides on the other hand will be touchy. I'm thinking I may work in a metal bar to bridge that gap and endure the abuse.

Thanks for watching

Superb work.
Really enjoyed your journey with your restoration.
Cheers

 

[muskyed]

Reason not to use steel wool in-between coats is that it has an oil in it. After you have put your final coat of urethane on, and it's cured for r or 5 days you can use some 0000 steel wool loaded with Johnson paste wax to buff Don and smooth out the finish. Should leave a smooth satin to semigloss finish. Don't rub hard. Don't try this though unless your are sure you are done with your finish coats.