solidifying vision fundamentals/the eyes

tomatoshooter said:
It may be an optical illusion, but on long thin cuts down the long rail, past the side pocket, it looks like the object ball swerves towards the rail slightly from cut induced spin, adding to the throw.
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So are you saying that long cut shots would probably require a different aim adjustment than shorter cut shots at the same angle?
 
FranCrimi said:
So are you saying that long cut shots would probably require a different aim adjustment than shorter cut shots at the same angle?
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I'm not 100% sure that it isn't an illusion, but yes, long cut shots could need to be cut even thinner. This could just be an illusion because the object ball starts out travelling moving more to the side than moving away, as the ball travels and I turn to watch, the path becomes more directly away from me. You shoot better than I do, if you haven't noticed it then it's either an illusion or some anomaly.
 
FranCrimi said:
So are you saying that long cut shots would probably require a different aim adjustment than shorter cut shots at the same angle?
Click to expand...
I just tried to capture it on my phone, and could not see it happening. It looked like it did when I was shooting, but recording from the line of the object ball to the pocket showed nothing, so it is an illusion. If it did ever happen, it may have been debris on the cloth or the table was not level.
 
tomatoshooter said:
I just tried to capture it on my phone, and could not see it happening. It looked like it did when I was shooting, but recording from the line of the object ball to the pocket showed nothing, so it is an illusion. If it did ever happen, it may have been debris on the cloth or the table was not level.
Click to expand...
Well, there's a little channel that sometimes forms under the cushion that can sometimes extend a little farther out at certain places along the cushion, so it might have caught the channel at that part of the table, which may have drawn it out and then back in. I've seen that happen.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If "the same shot" means they're both 35-degree cuts, I think the aim adjustment is the same.

pj
chgo
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Impossible. While it is true that the same angle of cut will produce the same amount of throw in degrees, the distance between the line of centres at contact and the true roll of the OB will steadily increase the longer the shot is. I'm sure math guys can work out the exact distances, but an object ball one diamond away from the pocket will be aimed damn near centre pocket while a ball cut all the way down table may need to be aimed entirely outside the pocket, esp with dirty balls. Again, both deviate from the line of centres by the same number of degrees, but the two lines (line of centres vs true roll of OB) if diagrammed will form what looks like a wedge with the lines moving progressively farther away from one another as distance of OB roll increases.
 
WobblyStroke said:
Impossible. While it is true that the same angle of cut will produce the same amount of throw in degrees, the distance between the line of centres at contact and the true roll of the OB will steadily increase the longer the shot is. I'm sure math guys can work out the exact distances, but an object ball one diamond away from the pocket will be aimed damn near centre pocket while a ball cut all the way down table may need to be aimed entirely outside the pocket, esp with dirty balls. Again, both deviate from the line of centres by the same number of degrees, but the two lines (line of centres vs true roll of OB) if diagrammed will form what looks like a wedge with the lines moving progressively farther away from one another as distance of OB roll increases.
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Try reading my post #37.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Try reading my post #37.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Ah, so we are in agreement. Just approaching aiming differently. I like the diagram you included--a very clear depiction of what my word salad was trying to convey.

Where we differ is in terms of how we view adjustments. I don't think most people adjust in terms of the degree of difference but rather in terms of the final destination of the ball. So in my view, it appears as tho there is more of an adjustment for OB's farther away from pockets because the resulting distance off line is greater--it's more about the point you are heading at rather than the number of degrees that point is off the line of centres.
 
WobblyStroke said:
...it appears as tho there is more of an adjustment for OB's farther away from pockets because the resulting distance off line is greater
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That's kinda like saying if I turn right at this corner it's a 90-degree turn, but if I turn at the next corner it's something else. I make the same "steering adjustment" at either corner.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's kinda like saying if I turn right at this corner it's a 90-degree turn, but if I turn at the next corner it's something else. I make the same "steering adjustment" at either corner.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Not at all. I'm just focusing on the difference in aim point for the destination of the ball which will be farther off the line of centres as the OB has to move a greater distance. You are focusing on the difference in aim on the OB itself.

The difference on the OB won't change, we are in agreement here. I'm just saying that the way in which I think most people arrive at this point on the OB is by picturing a final destination aim point (i.e. part of a pocket or pocket point or whatever) and this point moves farther off line proportional to the distance travelled.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's kinda like saying if I turn right at this corner it's a 90-degree turn, but if I turn at the next corner it's something else. I make the same "steering adjustment" at either corner.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
WobblyStroke said:
Not at all. I'm just focusing on the difference in aim point for the destination of the ball which will be farther off the line of centres as the OB has to move a greater distance. You are focusing on the difference in aim on the OB itself.

The difference on the OB won't change, we are in agreement here. I'm just saying that the way in which I think most people arrive at this point on the OB is by picturing a final destination aim point (i.e. part of a pocket or pocket point or whatever) and this point moves farther off line proportional to the distance travelled.
Click to expand...
tell me if i have both of you interpreted correctly
for purpose of this discussion
the object ball throws 3 degrees with my example cut
so to correct that i have to adjust my contact point 3 mm(arbitrary number for discussion only )
from the "true " contact point
this corrected contact point
will work regardless of distance?
that i think is PJ
wobblystroke
i know at distance X i need to aim at the facing to get center pocket and at distance Y i have to aim at the pocket point
you will be hitting that 3 mm offset both times but dont realize it (or better said ...dont think of it that way)
yes?
no?
 
bbb said:
tell me if i have both of you interpreted correctly
for purpose of this discussion
the object ball throws 3 degrees with my example cut
so to correct that i have to adjust my contact point 3 mm(arbitrary number for discussion only )
from the "true " contact point
this corrected contact point
will work regardless of distance?
that i think is PJ
wobblystroke
i know at distance X i need to aim at the facing to get center pocket and at distance Y i have to aim at the pocket point
you will be hitting that 3 mm offset both times but dont realize it (or better said ...dont think of it that way)
yes?
no?
Click to expand...
Yes that is essentially what I'm saying... the adjusted point on the OB will not change as long as the cut angle is the same. However the final destination point we 'aim' at as the other end of the line we imagine that connects to the contact point will change depending on the distance OB has to travel. So yes, from 2 feet away you may be aiming at the left side of the pocket in order to split the pocket, but from 6 feet away you may need to 'aim' at the point of the pocket.
 
bbb said:
tell me if i have both of you interpreted correctly
for purpose of this discussion
the object ball throws 3 degrees with my example cut
so to correct that i have to adjust my contact point 3 mm(arbitrary number for discussion only )
from the "true " contact point
this corrected contact point
will work regardless of distance?
that i think is PJ
wobblystroke
i know at distance X i need to aim at the facing to get center pocket and at distance Y i have to aim at the pocket point
you will be hitting that 3 mm offset both times but dont realize it (or better said ...dont think of it that way)
yes?
no?
Click to expand...
Yep. Tomato potahto.

pj
chgo
 
FranCrimi said:
Ok Thanks, but I was just looking for something more clear, like a diagram of cut angles at the same distance to the pocket, and the amount of throw for soft, medium and hard hits on those angles. Once we have that information, then we can create a formula for aim and/or side spin adjustments.
Click to expand...

At the bottom of the page here, I have a good summary of 10 useful things to know about throw in your game:


If you instead want to see details for how throw varies with angle, speed, and spin, see the graphs here:

 
dr_dave said:
At the bottom of the page here, I have a good summary of 10 useful things to know about throw in your game:


If you instead want to see details for how throw varies with angle, speed, and spin, see the graphs here:

Click to expand...
Great. Now that you have accumumlated all of that information then maybe you can create a bottom-line chart to help players to adjust their aim incrementally by X amount, based on angle and speed. Looking forward to seeing it.
 
FranCrimi said:
Well yes, of course. But you need a reference point first. Angle and speed are enough to get you a decent reference point.
Click to expand...
You also need "reference" specs for the other variables in order to have single references for angle and speed. When one changes others do too.

pj
chgo
 
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