Some carom questions

predator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...from a guy who has never played on a pocketless table.

1. How do carom players start? Surely there must be something easier than 3C? Equivalent to 8ball in pool?

2. Is knowledge of diamond system absolutely necessary to play the game well? Can it be played just by feel?

3. Why are their bridges so short?

4. On a pro level, is 3 cushion the only game played?

5. How much do top 3C players make? Comparable to snooker?

6. Would playing carom improve one's kick shots and bank shots at pool? Could it possibly hurt your overall pool game because of different stroke requirements?

7. Is it true that carom players look down on pool players? :)


Thanks.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1. Caroms is the easy game. You just have to hit the 2 balls with your cue ball. 3c and caroms are both billiards, but are not the same game.
2. You need a stick, balls, table to play. Chalk and additional knowledge will help you.
3. Do you mean a) the bridge (hand) distance from the cue ball, or, b) the bridge accessory that helps one reach shots that are far away? if a) then it is probably for accurracy in striking the cue ball. If b), in the US, at least in the places I've played, we use the same bridge as for pocket billiards.
4. Practically, yes. I know that caroms can be made rediculously easy (by a top-level player) and, as a result, has undergone many rule changes. I am unaware of any pro-level caroms championships.
5. Deno will have to address that one!
6. Yes, it will help LOTS! The balls are different sizes and hold spin for much longer than pool balls. Aslo, the table speed is MUCH different. Will it hurt your pool game? Does eating with chopsticks hurt your ability to use a fork ;) ?
7. Only to those shorter than they!
 

1pRoscoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
predator said:
1. How do carom players start? Surely there must be something easier than 3C? Equivalent to 8ball in pool?

2. Is knowledge of diamond system absolutely necessary to play the game well? Can it be played just by feel?

3. Why are their bridges so short?

4. On a pro level, is 3 cushion the only game played?

5. How much do top 3C players make? Comparable to snooker?

6. Would playing carom improve one's kick shots and bank shots at pool? Could it possibly hurt your overall pool game because of different stroke requirements?

7. Is it true that carom players look down on pool players?

To the best of my knowledge...

1. You lag. Winner "breaks" which is a standard three rail shot, it goes from there. There is only one way to play that I know of....
2. You don't need to know the diamond system, I don't use it at all. It's just dependant upon how you have learned
3. Because the balls are larger/heavier
4. Don't know about pro level, although from what i have seen, they play the standard game
5. Haven't a clue...
6. It has improved my multi-rail kicks to a completely different level... I highly suggest playing.
7. Not that I have ever seen....
 

bud green

Dolley and Django
Silver Member
Straight caroms is deader than Abe Lincoln for pros...guys running 3000 points without missing pretty much killed it. Balkline is a game where you have to drive the balls past lines drawn on the table but top players run 100+ points at this too so it's not played much. Bob Jewett posted about a site, Kozoom.com, where one of the best players in the world (Caudron) has a dvd showing him playing balkline and talking about his thought process.Accu-stats also has a tape of balkline available with Caudron and Peter Debekker (sp?) playing.

The diamond system isn't necessary but will greatly help you if you take the time to learn it. I've heard that Raymond Ceulemens won his first championship before he knew the diamond system. He eventually went on to write a whole book on system play called Mr. 100 that's out of print but may be re-released.

The shorter bridge allows you to use max english with more control. Also, on a lot of shots you try to hit an exact thickness of the first ball (thin hit short angles, for example) and a shorter bridge helps with accuracy. A lot of players will change their bridge for certain shots though. It also depends if the player was raised on straight rail. Torbjorn Blomdahl has a background that includes snooker and he tends to have a longer bridge than some of the straight rail players. No need for a long bridge in straight rail when your moving the balls two inches....

From what I can tell from listening to a number of Accu-Stat tapes, the European players are sponsored by companies and also have a decent number of events to play so they probably make 50-150K a year. Higher on average than most pro pool players but not anywhere near what snooker players make. I think Italy has a game where there are pins on the table and scoring is based on both caroms and knocking the pins down. I've heard that this tourney pays real well (over 30K for first)and players like Blomdahl compete in it but have a hard time beating the Italians. Another good one for Deno to answer.

There is absolutely no question that playing billiards will help your kicking game but for a lot of people, the use of max english in caroms and the fact that you're thinking cueball mainly instead of the first object ball causes ball pocketing problems sometimes. A high percentage of carom billiard shots are shot with a good amount of english; unless you adjust when you get back on a pool table, you may find yourself using a lot of side english and deflection may cause you to start rattling balls you would normally make. A standard joke is that people play caroms because they can't make a ball on a pool table. I disagree with that but a lot of old timers seem to like billiards and games like one pocket not only because of the increased variety of shots but also because they aren't forced to try to pocket hard shots regularly.

Do carom players look down on pool players? I doubt it. They may be convinced that billiards is the finest game, a gentlemans game, etc... but top pool players can learn to be very good carom players easier than carom players can become great pool players. Players like Mosconi, Johnny Layton, Harold Worst, could compete at a high level at billiards. No carom player has ever done much in pool or snooker I don't think. The top players these days are way too good for someone who isn't trained at 3-C to beat however. People think that Efren Reyes could give these guys trouble if he practised but after watching Sayginer,Sanchez,Blomdahl,Sang Lee,etc.. when they're "on", Efren would have almost no chance.

Sang Lee supposedly ran fifty points in four innings in his home room: 19,11,9, and another 11.
 

JPB

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Players like Mosconi, Johnny Layton, Harold Worst, could compete at a high level at billiards."


I think Worst started with being great at billiards and moving to pool when the game went downhill. He played both jam up from everything I have read.
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great questions!

In Europe, there is more of an institution of playing what billiard players call the "small games." These games are:

Straight Rail- where your cue ball needs only touch the other two balls. This game is alive and well in many parts of the world except the US, where there are still some areas where the game is played, including a league in New York.

Balk-line- As straight rail became too easy and boring to watch (because the best were never really missing much), lines were drawn on the table and players were only able to make a small number of straight points when all three balls were inside a box. After making the points allowed (one or two), you must drive a ball across a line. It can come back into the box. As long as a ball crosses a line it is ok.

One-cushion- Probably the best game to learn the basics of three cushion. The title says it all...you only need hit one cushion and both balls.

As far as the diamond system, while many players use systems, the top players are split (although more use them not). The game can be played by feel and is by some of the best players who have ever played the game. It depends what kind of person you are. If you are going to learn systems though, stick to the Ceulemans systems, because there are a ton of them that are not worth the time to read. Start in Ceulemans' book (if you can find a copy), it is the only one you will ever really need as far as systems go.

Bridges are short because a short bridge reduces the margin of error of stroke-related issues. Since we are commonly applying lots of english, there is little room for error. Also, billiard cues are stiffer and the shafts tend to get thick very quickly. The bridge loop would have to be pretty big to allow for a long bride.

On the pro level, all of the games I mentioned above are played but they are very limited. Three-cushion is widely played and recognized as the pinnacle billiard sport, although it is probably one of the easiest billiard games to learn to play well.

The best 3 cushion players can make a nice living, but not anything like the top snooker players. With endorsements and tournament earnings, also exhibition proceeds, there are several who can make $125,00+ annually. However, go outside those limited few and a player would be hard-pressed to make $60,000 annually, taking into consideration that from that income all of their expenses must be paid. Many countries subsidize their billiard federations. In South America, many countries will pay for their players to go to other countries as long as they have an official invitation to the tournament.

You would be doing well to play some billiards if you want to improve your banking and kicking skills. A few years ago when Kier Graff was writing about learning the game of pool for Billiards Digest, I gave Kier a lesson, which he wrote about. He was only an average pool player, and after about ten or twenty minutes, I had him kicking at balls like a mad man. I showed him some things that allowed him to be confident about kicking. Before the lesson he admitted that when he was kicking, he was basically just guessing. During the lesson, he began kicking to make the ball or to hit a certain side of the ball for safeties. I don't remember which issue it was in, but if someone knows, it might be worth reading.

Do carom players look down on pool players? Some do. But hey, at least snooker players look down on us all :) Really, billiard players have a lot of respect for pool players. The main problem billiard players have with pool is its image of dirty rooms, hustling, back stabbing, etc. Billiards has all of that too, but without the dirty rooms :)

Deno Andrews
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bud green said:
Straight caroms is deader than Abe Lincoln for pros...guys running 3000 points without missing pretty much killed it. Balkline is a game where you have to drive the balls past lines drawn on the table but top players run 100+ points at this too so it's not played much. Bob Jewett posted about a site, Kozoom.com, where one of the best players in the world (Caudron) has a dvd showing him playing balkline and talking about his thought process.Accu-stats also has a tape of balkline available with Caudron and Peter Debekker (sp?) playing.

The diamond system isn't necessary but will greatly help you if you take the time to learn it. I've heard that Raymond Ceulemens won his first championship before he knew the diamond system. He eventually went on to write a whole book on system play called Mr. 100 that's out of print but may be re-released.

The shorter bridge allows you to use max english with more control. Also, on a lot of shots you try to hit an exact thickness of the first ball (thin hit short angles, for example) and a shorter bridge helps with accuracy. A lot of players will change their bridge for certain shots though. It also depends if the player was raised on straight rail. Torbjorn Blomdahl has a background that includes snooker and he tends to have a longer bridge than some of the straight rail players. No need for a long bridge in straight rail when your moving the balls two inches....

From what I can tell from listening to a number of Accu-Stat tapes, the European players are sponsored by companies and also have a decent number of events to play so they probably make 50-150K a year. Higher on average than most pro pool players but not anywhere near what snooker players make. I think Italy has a game where there are pins on the table and scoring is based on both caroms and knocking the pins down. I've heard that this tourney pays real well (over 30K for first)and players like Blomdahl compete in it but have a hard time beating the Italians. Another good one for Deno to answer.

There is absolutely no question that playing billiards will help your kicking game but for a lot of people, the use of max english in caroms and the fact that you're thinking cueball mainly instead of the first object ball causes ball pocketing problems sometimes. A high percentage of carom billiard shots are shot with a good amount of english; unless you adjust when you get back on a pool table, you may find yourself using a lot of side english and deflection may cause you to start rattling balls you would normally make. A standard joke is that people play caroms because they can't make a ball on a pool table. I disagree with that but a lot of old timers seem to like billiards and games like one pocket not only because of the increased variety of shots but also because they aren't forced to try to pocket hard shots regularly.

Do carom players look down on pool players? I doubt it. They may be convinced that billiards is the finest game, a gentlemans game, etc... but top pool players can learn to be very good carom players easier than carom players can become great pool players. Players like Mosconi, Johnny Layton, Harold Worst, could compete at a high level at billiards. No carom player has ever done much in pool or snooker I don't think. The top players these days are way too good for someone who isn't trained at 3-C to beat however. People think that Efren Reyes could give these guys trouble if he practised but after watching Sayginer,Sanchez,Blomdahl,Sang Lee,etc.. when they're "on", Efren would have almost no chance.

Sang Lee supposedly ran fifty points in four innings in his home room: 19,11,9, and another 11.
I witnessed Sang Lee's game of four innings. The inning scores were exactly as you wrote. I remember we were going to get something to eat after the game. I was hungry so I grabbed a candy bar and a soda. The candy bar was half eaten the soda still not opened when the game was over.

As far as pool players having an easier time learning 3 cushion compared to carom players learning pool, I have serious doubts. I think either game is is as difficult to learn as the other. There are a few top carom players who play some jam-up pool. The only pool player who can really play 3-cushion well is Efren. I have a video of Blomdahl playing Efren in 9-ball and in 3-cushion. Blomdahl beat Efren in pool and the match was sort of close. In billiards, it was a disaster for Efren. Watch out for Danny Sanchez from Spain too...I hear he now wants a World Title in pool to go with his 3-cushion title.

Deno
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Deno J. Andrews said:
...
As far as pool players having an easier time learning 3 cushion compared to carom players learning pool, I have serious doubts. I think either game is is as difficult to learn as the other. There are a few top carom players who play some jam-up pool. ...
I saw Sayginer fooling around at straight pool once. When the opponent made some kind of comment, Sayginer kicked it up three or four gears and ran a couple of racks making it look like child's play. Sayginer also plays the small carom games.

In the clubs in Europe, they often have multiple classes of players with championships for each in several forms of the game. In the club I just played at in Vienna, they even have a straight rail (free game) division low enough that I might compete in it, but the best players in the room have average points per turn well over 100. As Deno mentioned, straight rail is the most common carom game played in many parts of the world, just as the average pool player plays eight ball, while essentially none of the better players do.
 

bud green

Dolley and Django
Silver Member
Can you provide a description of the Italian game with the pins on a carom table when you get a chance, Deno? I think I heard Robert Byrne talk about the game on a tape but I can't remember what the game is called or how it is played.

It would nice to see Sanchez enter some pool tourneys and do well. Since the first day he came to America and started beating champions when he was a teenager to the ridiculous averages in some of his recent games ( 45 pts in 13 innings,etc...) this guy is as talented as anyone in billiards.

How about a 9-ball ring game with Blomdahl, Sanchez, Sayginer,etc... after the Sang Lee memorial tourney next month?
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Italian game is 5-pin and they are set up in the middle of the table. I am not clear as to the exact scoring. Maybe Bob will know and comment. If not, I can call David Martinelli in Italy who is the champion in that game and get all the details.

It would be great to see a ring game between those players. However, they are billiard players and don't like to gamble, so in that regard it might be a little boring. I will not be there as I have a previous engagement.

Deno
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
bud green said:
Can you provide a description of the Italian game with the pins on a carom table when you get a chance, Deno?...
I'm not Deno, but.... I played the game for a couple of hours at one BCA Trade Show when they filmed a pin-billiards championship there. Maybe Minneapolis.

Anyway, you set up five pins in the middle of the carom table in a cross shape with the center pin a different color. You shoot to drive the red ball through the pins. You only get one shot at a time, so there are no runs. The pins that have been knocked down spot up after each shot. I think that you must not hit the other cue ball. A good move is to drive the red through the pins slowly to leave it behind the pins from your opponent's cue ball when they spot up. The center pin counts extra and I think there is a large bonus if you can knock it down without touching the other pins.
 

predator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for all the replies. The first time I get the chance to play some carom, I'll probably start with straight rail or 1 cushion maybe. 3 cushion? Everything looks terribly difficult to me except maybe stroking technique.

I watched one match where Blomdahl averages 4 or something. Unreal. It's a beautiful game to watch when the best players play. I'm not sure it would be great to watch someone who averages 0.5 or less.
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
predator said:
Thanks for all the replies. The first time I get the chance to play some carom, I'll probably start with straight rail or 1 cushion maybe. 3 cushion? Everything looks terribly difficult to me except maybe stroking technique.

I watched one match where Blomdahl averages 4 or something. Unreal. It's a beautiful game to watch when the best players play. I'm not sure it would be great to watch someone who averages 0.5 or less.
Glad to hear that you will be trying some billiards. Don't let Blomdahl's high average taint your appreciation for a .5 player. .5 players are pretty good and have a nice understanding of the game. I think many of these players would easily be .75 players if they played enough. Many of them only play once or twice a week, and never practice (only play with others). If you take away the top 15-20 or so players in the world, a solid 1.0 average player is even money to beat anyone at any time.

If you have never really played billiards but can play some pool, my guess is that you will enter 3-cushion with about a .150 average that will quickly make it up to .250 after a couple months. The more one cushion and straight rail you play, the faster you will improve. A good carom cue will also help because it is difficult to play with a pool cue.

Deno Andrews
 

1pRoscoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Deno - I see you mentioning straight rail and one cushion, which I'm sure is a great fundamentals game, however I have only ever played 3 cushion. I'd be willing to guess I am a .250 player. Do you think working on "easier" games would be beneficial to increasing my average/knowledge?
 

Deno J. Andrews

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1pRoscoe said:
Deno - I see you mentioning straight rail and one cushion, which I'm sure is a great fundamentals game, however I have only ever played 3 cushion. I'd be willing to guess I am a .250 player. Do you think working on "easier" games would be beneficial to increasing my average/knowledge?
Well, let me shine some light on the smaller games. It is a common misconception that these games are easier. Sure, the concept of straight rail and one cushion seems very simple and much easier than 3-cushion. However, the expectation of a good player is much higher. For example, if you play 3-cushion, and let's say you play at 1.0, a world class level- you are going to miss as many times as you make. But straight rail is more like straight pool in the regard that if you make a mistake against a top player, there is a very good chance that you will never make it back to the table...and games are to 400 points in some tournaments! So while the game might be easy on the conceptual level, I think it takes far better cuemanship to play top straight rail, one cushion, balk line, etc., than it does to play 3 cushion. That is not to take anything away from the 3cushion players because they are strong in their own right. There is just much less control in 3 cushion than in the small games, so the expectation of not missing ever isn't really there.

The reason the small games help in 3 cushion is in the aiming and object ball control. Good 3 cushion players play position with the first object ball. Like pool players, they know exactly where it is going...though it never really leaves the table. The small games teach you how to control the first object ball, and how to aim to get the proper carom angle. There is a much larger margin of error in 3 cushion because of the target size. In the small games, you constantly have to carom off the first ball and land perfectly on the right side of the second ball in order to easily continue a run. So as a result of this need, the target size is much smaller, which will help you to be more accurate. As far the first ball goes, learning its path in the small games will help you to avoid kisses and start to think about position play in 3 cushion.

Deno Andrews
 

1pRoscoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, that really puts it into perspective.... Thank you very much for the verbose reply!!
 

Bob Jewett

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1pRoscoe said:
... Do you think working on "easier" games would be beneficial to increasing my average/knowledge?
If you really do play one pocket, as your login implies, straight rail and one cushion will help your pool game a lot more than 3-C will. Gather shots are nearly identical to bank shots at one pocket, except you have to really control the cue ball.
 

rc_collins

Registered
Deno/Bob,
What are your 3C averages? Can you correlate averages to letter grades for me? E.G. .6 average = B+, .4 = C-, etc. There are only 2 3C tables here and maybe 5 regular players. I usually play by myself and see how many innings it takes to get to 10 or 20 pts. Thanks.
 

rc_collins

Registered
Dont play 3 cushion without reading Bob Byrnes book first. Twice. It can be a frustrating game if you dont see the easy shots.
 
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