Some days on, some days off . . . .

dquarasr

dquarasr

Registered
I have been working on my fundamentals: stance, alignment, and cuing straight.

I have tried being extremely disciplined, slow, methodical, and technical, being very careful with foot position, stance, elbow and arm position, head position,, right hand position, bridge length, and alignment to shot line.

I have also tried a less disciplined "feel it, just line it up and shoot" approach, where I trust my repetitions and let them guide me, where I am much less conscious of feet, arms, and elbow, just "letting it happen".

Here are my results (I'm talking shot making, not strategy or position play):
  1. Disciplined, methodical: results are great!
  2. Disciplined, methodical: results are frustratingly poor
  3. "Winging it": results are great!
  4. "Winging it": results are frustratingly poor
I have not found a pattern I can point to that helps me troubleshoot #2 and #4, except in both approaches resulting in poor performance I have noticed that I am less prone to missing when I use a very relaxed arm-swing. Other than that, it's baffling.

As my fundamentals improve, the instances of #2 and #4 are becoming less frequent, but they are still far too prevalent for me to be happy with my progress.

I know there is no "magic pill" but ideas on which approach is better are most welcome. (I tend to be analytical and methodical, however, back in my bowling days my average went up 20 pins after I relaxed and just "let it happen", and I was able to average around 210 and scored a 245-259-300=804 series in a county tournament. I almost seem to be answering my own question here, eh?)
 
as you are learning your skills are not cemented
that is why your results have a large spread
as you improve and have more "muscle memory"
the spread of results should get tighter
meaning
the distance between your best day and worse day will get closer together
i am not an instructor
jmho
i think you havent gotten to #4 yet

The Four Stages of Learning - Process Coaching Center

www.processcoaching.com www.processcoaching.com
 
I've been playing for over 60 years and I don't think about fundamentals and never have.
I just get down and fire.
Over thinking anything about this game can paralyze you with self doubt.
 
Great replies, all.
goettlicher said:
One must understand that there is a huge difference between Learning & Results!

randyg
Click to expand...
Understood. But my measurements include the ability to hit the Mother Of All Drills where CB stops dead (or follows OB into the pocket). Those are the “results” I seek. Hitting over and over and missing the same way isn’t learning. Need objective measurements to gauge progress.
Dan White said:
One thing that helped me was to realize that your hand will naturally tense up and grip the queue on contact. Try swinging through the cue ball with a relaxed hand. It feels unnatural but once you get the hang of it you'll see what I mean.
Click to expand...
Oh, yeah, I know this one. It’s easy to comprehend, feels right when I do it. It’s the heat of competition, the pressure of making that 10th in a row in practice, and other distractions that for me make it hard to remember to keep grip relaxed.

bbb said:
as you are learning your skills are not cemented
that is why your results have a large spread
as you improve and have more "muscle memory"
the spread of results should get tighter
meaning
the distance between your best day and worse day will get closer together
i am not an instructor
jmho
i think you havent gotten to #4 yet

The Four Stages of Learning - Process Coaching Center

www.processcoaching.com www.processcoaching.com
Click to expand...
Yes, I have been seeing this as I progress. Thanks for the link. I’m familiar with these phases. It’s my goal to get to unconscious competence. It’s coming but slowly. But in the meantime I’m trying to balance analyzing and troubleshooting, being slow and methodical, so I can make the appropriate corrections that will eventually become routine subconscious execution.

measureman said:
I've been playing for over 60 years and I don't think about fundamentals and never have.
I just get down and fire.
Over thinking anything about this game can paralyze you with self doubt.
Click to expand...
Working on it!
 
measureman said:
Over thinking anything about this game can paralyze you with self doubt.
Click to expand...
Not knowing what to do creates more hesitancy and doubt than anything.
There has to be something between just getting down and shooting, without thought, that is not suddenly called “over thinking”.
 
Imac007 said:
Not knowing what to do creates more hesitancy and doubt than anything.
There has to be something between just getting down and shooting, without thought, that is not suddenly called “over thinking”.
Click to expand...
After awhile most shots are routine.
I rarely have to stop and think about what to do.
But I've been playing 60 years and at a high level for 50 of them.
It just takes hours and hours of play.
But with the above being said I've seen guys that have been playing for decades that still don't have a clue.
I guess it's like NFL quarterbacks,some are great almost from day one and others have been on 10 teams and are still marginal back ups.
 
measureman said:
After awhile most shots are routine.
Click to expand...
There is a saying at high levels that there is no such thing as an easy shot.
The mindset that takes things for granted, leads even the best, to miss ”easy” once in a while.
Lifelong learning is more a mindset, quite different from the complacency found in marginal play.
Accepting mediocrity is a different matter.
Research by Joan Vickers found that the best performers fight automaticity, always pulling the current situation into the present and reveling in its uniqueness.
The concept of “routine” denies each shots individual footprint.
Being on high alert for the slightest difference, that can make a difference, separates the best from the rest.
 
Last edited:
Imac007 said:
Each session needs to go through stages culminating in your performance phase for the day.
Motor skill acquisition goes through different stages than academic learning.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672876/
There is an overlap of process across the learning spectrum.
Cognitive understanding doesn’t equate to motor performance.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link👍
You sure know alot of different stuff 😃👍
 
Get rid of 3 and 4 and replace them with Find Your Rhythm.

An old hustler named Peter Rabbit from South Philly once spent a little time with me at the table. He was the first one to introduce me to the concept of finding my rhythm. This is your overall rhythm as you move around the table from shot to shot, including your stroke rhythm. It's everything. Peter Rabbit said to allow myself to make a few mistakes in the beginning of a match in order to find my rhythm because it's easier to sacrifice a few shots to fall into your rhythm than to try to do everything right while trying to find your rhythm.

Things start to go downhill for players when they fall out of their rhythm.
 
FranCrimi said:
Get rid of 3 and 4 and replace them with Find Your Rhythm.

An old hustler named Peter Rabbit from South Philly once spent a little time with me at the table. He was the first one to introduce me to the concept of finding my rhythm. This is your overall rhythm as you move around the table from shot to shot, including your stroke rhythm. It's everything. Peter Rabbit said to allow myself to make a few mistakes in the beginning of a match in order to find my rhythm because it's easier to sacrifice a few shots to fall into your rhythm than to try to do everything right while trying to find your rhythm.

Things start to go downhill for players when they fall out of their rhythm.
Click to expand...
The start of a session is often a feeling out phase.
Trying to find the line, aligning the perception center, the elbow hinge, and establish neutral but in control cueing hand feel that will carry you through the match.
Part of that is finding your rhythm.
The pitfall is losing the rhythm, as the body and arm let the process slip into the unconscious, speeding up in the process.
Rhythm is a a combination of tempo and timing.
Focus needs to go beyond getting lost in any one rhythm since each shot has its own tempo and timing needs for execution.
Rhythm can have a hypnotic effect and many mistake it’s trance qualities for the more methodical mindset we call the zone.
Without timing runs often come to an end quickly.
Timing without tempo never gets into the flow of the flow of the game.
Flow is often mistaken for the zone with the simple joy found in the activity.
Both timing and tempo are how we get into the choreography of the dance of the balls.
Debussy is credited with saying that music is the space between the notes.
I like it because it reminds us that rhythm is about measured, blended action, composed to make the music of the spheres.
Watch John Morra to get a sense of staying in rhythm.
 
Imac007 said:
The start of a session is often a feeling out phase.
Trying to find the line, aligning the perception center, the elbow hinge, and establish neutral but in control cueing hand feel that will carry you through the match.
Part of that is finding your rhythm.
The pitfall is losing the rhythm, as the body and arm let the process slip into the unconscious, speeding up in the process.
Rhythm is a a combination of tempo and timing.
Focus needs to go beyond getting lost in any one rhythm since each shot has its own tempo and timing needs for execution.
Rhythm can have a hypnotic effect and many mistake it’s trance qualities for the more methodical mindset we call the zone.
Without timing runs often come to an end quickly.
Timing without tempo never gets into the flow of the flow of the game.
Flow is often mistaken for the zone with the simple joy found in the activity.
Both timing and tempo are how we get into the choreography of the dance of the balls.
Debussy is credited with saying that music is the space between the notes.
I like it because it reminds us that rhythm is about measured, blended action, composed to make the music of the spheres.
Watch John Morra to get a sense of staying in rhythm.
Click to expand...
Awesome, if esoteric, imagery. Miles also had a credo similar to Debussy. I need to find MY rhythm. No one can prescribe it for me.

Luckily I have a forced opportunity not to have a cue in my hands for a while. I’ll take the time away from the table to chill, reset, and hopefully return to a new, refreshed attitude where I let the game come to me, rather than try to force it via frustrating practice sessions.

I appreciate all the feedback I’ve received here. Great stuff.
 
Imac007 said:
The start of a session is often a feeling out phase.
Trying to find the line, aligning the perception center, the elbow hinge, and establish neutral but in control cueing hand feel that will carry you through the match.
Part of that is finding your rhythm.
The pitfall is losing the rhythm, as the body and arm let the process slip into the unconscious, speeding up in the process.
Rhythm is a a combination of tempo and timing.
Focus needs to go beyond getting lost in any one rhythm since each shot has its own tempo and timing needs for execution.
Rhythm can have a hypnotic effect and many mistake it’s trance qualities for the more methodical mindset we call the zone.
Without timing runs often come to an end quickly.
Timing without tempo never gets into the flow of the flow of the game.
Flow is often mistaken for the zone with the simple joy found in the activity.
Both timing and tempo are how we get into the choreography of the dance of the balls.
Debussy is credited with saying that music is the space between the notes.
I like it because it reminds us that rhythm is about measured, blended action, composed to make the music of the spheres.
Watch John Morra to get a sense of staying in rhythm.
Click to expand...
While I admit that I don't have the attention span to study each of your bullet point comments, one in particular did jump out at me --- the one where you wrote "Focus needs to go beyond getting lost in any one rhythm since each shot has it's own tempo and timing needs for execution."

Did you just make that up about the rhythm of an individual shot? It's really not how we define rhythm in pool. We don't define rhythm by shot. It's an all encompassing way that a player moves around the table, and it includes everything that goes into a player's turn at the table, including all of the different shots.
 
Imac007 said:
Not knowing what to do creates more hesitancy and doubt than anything.
There has to be something between just getting down and shooting, without thought, that is not suddenly called “over thinking”.
Click to expand...
I think some people call it luck, but it's not. It's trusting your subconscious to the point of foolishness. Do you feel or do you not feel? The ball sinks, ol' subconcey knew something was there even if you didn't consciously recognize it. The sooner you can get out of your own way and get out of your own head, the sooner you will start to get lucky. This gets into the realm of woo woo sounding but there really is something to it. Why do you think Eferen seems so happy when those balls go in? Nothing in this game is guaranteed, so "I got lucky" is as good a reason as any.

This isn't to say practice, strong fundamentals (and all aspects) or shot making practice isn't vital, it is. The more you practice the luckier you get, but only if you can trust the practice will go hand in hand with lady luck.

I get called the luckiest bastard all the time, but I feel when a shot is good, even if the ball does some random totally sloppy thing, it feels different if you can trust it. I've been so confused at times about what to shoot I'll think, "well I'll give it a half ball hit and see what happens." Even with no idea what will happen, it feels like (;)) at least 40-50% of the time I will make something or leave an opponent no real shot. Luck can run out, but even 30% with that confident feel is better than 25% with that over thinking and the fear of missing it. Fear is the shot killer, confidence is the shot maker. Sure I evaluate stuff and think about leave/safety/whatever but when you're down on that shot, thinking accomplishes nothing, just trust it. Use the transition/pause at the back to shut your head off. The more you play and the more you practice properly the higher those percentages go, and we're talking shots you have no clue about. Just imagine the ones you know! They're a gimmie!

Worrying and stress does nothing but give you ulcers. Just practice and trust what you practice either stuck, or is on the way to sticking with you.

Pool gives you the opportunity to master confidence and not be a slave to fear. So to answer your question of what is between the two, IMO it is confidence and hitting enough balls until enough go in to make you confident. Practice shotmaking (with good fundamentals), 14:1/Equal Offense, 8 Ball, 9 Ball, and 1P all teach you different aspects of the game. Realize that getting good at pool can be a real grind, until it isn't anymore.

It sounds silly to trust luck, but let's be real here, most people, unless very beginners reading or interested enough in pool to be on AZ should be able to trust the process at least some. Some "luck" is simply letting what you've programmed into your pool computer run without doubt.

Overthinking isn't trust. While up: Plan. Angle. Speed. Spin. Get down and trust it but let ol' subconcey handle it. The conscious brain is a terrible pool player.

Not an instructor so file the data accordingly.
 
Last edited:
FranCrimi said:
While I admit that I don't have the attention span to study each of your bullet point comments, one in particular did jump out at me --- the one where you wrote "Focus needs to go beyond getting lost in any one rhythm since each shot has it's own tempo and timing needs for execution."

Did you just make that up about the rhythm of an individual shot? It's really not how we define rhythm in pool. We don't define rhythm by shot. It's an all encompassing way that a player moves around the table, and it includes everything that goes into a player's turn at the table, including all of the different shots.
Click to expand...
Musical training may bias my understanding of the concept.
From Wikipedia “One difficulty in defining rhythm is the dependence of its perception on tempo, and, conversely, the dependence of tempo perception on rhythm. Furthermore, the rhythm–tempo interaction is context dependent,”
This definition fails to address the complication of timing.
The timing of a draw shot vs stun vs follow with varying paces each create a different cadence.
Cadence is a rhythmic sequence and different shots have a different beat.
ROS, Stephen Lee and CJ each talk about creating positional angles so they can use the same tempo and timing for most shots, just varying height of contact.
That said, the very fact they mention that they build that into their game, means it has importance to them.
They recognize and acknowledge that it is a variable relevant to play.
It sounds like you were able to leave it up to the non-conscious mind to handle.
I too, sometimes just trust my natural instinct, but do try to manage my tempo and timing within a favored range.
 
Imac007 said:
Musical training may bias my understanding of the concept.
From Wikipedia “One difficulty in defining rhythm is the dependence of its perception on tempo, and, conversely, the dependence of tempo perception on rhythm. Furthermore, the rhythm–tempo interaction is context dependent,”
This definition fails to address the complication of timing.
The timing of a draw shot vs stun vs follow with varying paces each create a different cadence.
Cadence is a rhythmic sequence and different shots have a different beat.
ROS, Stephen Lee and CJ each talk about creating positional angles so they can use the same tempo and timing for most shots, just varying height of contact.
That said, the very fact they mention that they build that into their game, means it has importance to them.
They recognize and acknowledge that it is a variable relevant to play.
It sounds like you were able to leave it up to the non-conscious mind to handle.
I too, sometimes just trust my natural instinct, but do try to manage my tempo and timing within a favored range.
Click to expand...

I was the one who brought up rhythm. Why confuse things? Why not discuss it in the context that I raised? You seemed to like my post. You gave it the heart thingy. But yet in your post right after, you wrote about rhythm as if you never even read what I wrote. What's up with that? Just keep me posted here... have we moved on from my definition to yours?
 
Last edited:
FranCrimi said:
I was the one who brought up rhythm. Why confuse things? Why not discuss it in the context that I raised?
Click to expand...
If my response was received as disrespectful, my bad.
No confrontation was intended.
Your explanation was clear and I felt I understood your perspective.
Your version of rhythm closely parallels what I call flow.
Rhythm involves an ebb and flow when applied to movement, rather than music.
As I stated a bias towards the musical analogy exists in my version.
Language is description, usually of personal experiences.
Our individual histories differ and shared understanding, the intent of the communication, may not exist, so we try to make sense within our own limited world.
I swung and missed, strike one.
 
Being in a rhythm is similar to a dance, like the Whirling Dervishes.

The overall dance is the performance…it is made up of a variety of things…some slower and some faster…some smooth and some flashier.

It is the mind dictating the tempo and choreography from the unconscious and having the body act it out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top