superminsoo
Registered
Definitely not. Carom billiards require more basic knowledge than pocket billiards. I meant that both require cue ball control and accurate object hits and placements.
The guys an idiot.
Some more videos of straight rail (France)
- Thread starter Dean_H
- Start date
Definitely not. Carom billiards require more basic knowledge than pocket billiards. I meant that both require cue ball control and accurate object hits and placements.
The guys an idiot.
Poor guy. Fellas like this usually couldn't manage a run of 10 if their lives depended on it - that is, if they ever had the guts to give it a try. Odds are he could never bring himself to attempt the challenge, since he would then be forced to admit to himself how terrible his touch for the game actually is.
He isn't alone though - lots of folks believe that the game is super easy simply because they read about the extremely high run records in history books (usually done on old slow cloth in a stationary nurse without actual tournament balkline rules). Players like Caudron sure makes it appear easy. If one is ready to find out how poor their speed control is really is, they only need to give straight-rail a go.
Unfortunately, the poster happens to be right about ESPN airing this (at least particular player who is very methodical).
I think serious pool fans in the US might actually enjoy watching Caudron vs. Efren lock horns in a balkline match. Balkline is one of Efren's favorite games - a fact that I feel clearly ("magically") shines through when he plays pool - so I personally would love to witness a matchup like this happen someday...
-Ira
Tap... tap... :thumbup2: :clapping:
Thank you Mr. Ira Lee!
You are true as you are wise!
It is people like yourself, sir, that will still keep this beautiful game as perserved and grand as it is in these states. Don't stop... ever!
----Rick S.
I don't like saying this game or that is harder than the others. They all have their set of difficulties. I think pool gets the rep as easier since anybody can figure out how and pocket a ball. It takes a little more knowledge walking up to a billiard table for the first time, and that table happens to be pocketless for the average person to determine how to make a 3cushion shot. But lets face it there's 3C positions that are as easy as a layup in pool.
How hard is it to average 2.0 in 3C?
How hard is it to run 300 balls in pool?
How hard is it to score 147 in snooker?
How hard is it to average 15 in straight rail?
This stat is not verified just the best I can do on some quick searching.
Jake Schaefer’s world-record average of runs in 18.2 balk-line billiards, in playing for 1,500 points, is 93-3/4.
I believe I read that Hoppe's Career Average in Straight Rail was in the mid to high teens. His highest run being 2000.
How hard is it to average 2.0 in 3C?
How hard is it to run 300 balls in pool?
How hard is it to score 147 in snooker?
How hard is it to average 15 in straight rail?
This stat is not verified just the best I can do on some quick searching.
Jake Schaefer’s world-record average of runs in 18.2 balk-line billiards, in playing for 1,500 points, is 93-3/4.
I believe I read that Hoppe's Career Average in Straight Rail was in the mid to high teens. His highest run being 2000.
...786...boink...787....boink...788...."What's that honey? Dinner? Ok...I'll be right up...." Oh crap....where was I....damn.... 1...boink....2....boink...
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
In my point of vue, the difficulty of the billard format depends on how much innings did the best player finish the game.
For exemple, if I study the best performances:
Carom - free game 300 pts = 1 inning possible ( cf Masters )
Carom - Backline 47/2 200 pts = 1 ininng ( cf Masters )
Carom - BackLine 71/2 200 pts = 1 inning possible ( cf Laurent GUENET )
Carom - Cushion 150pts = 1 inning ( cf Caudron )
Carom - 3C 40pts = more than 1 ininng ( the best is 27, no ? )
Snooker - 147 break = 1 inning ( cf more O' Sulivan and some other players )
Pool - Entire table = 1 inning
US - 9 ball = 1 inning
US - 8 ball = 1 inning
US - 14/1 = 1 inning ( some players did 250 balls )
So, I think that 3C carom and snooker are the best difficult billiard games because there aren't so many players in the year of 2009 who shut down the game in one inning.
This is a point of view of the webmaster of http://www.billard-passion.fr
Happy new year !!!
Olivier
For exemple, if I study the best performances:
Carom - free game 300 pts = 1 inning possible ( cf Masters )
Carom - Backline 47/2 200 pts = 1 ininng ( cf Masters )
Carom - BackLine 71/2 200 pts = 1 inning possible ( cf Laurent GUENET )
Carom - Cushion 150pts = 1 inning ( cf Caudron )
Carom - 3C 40pts = more than 1 ininng ( the best is 27, no ? )
Snooker - 147 break = 1 inning ( cf more O' Sulivan and some other players )
Pool - Entire table = 1 inning
US - 9 ball = 1 inning
US - 8 ball = 1 inning
US - 14/1 = 1 inning ( some players did 250 balls )
So, I think that 3C carom and snooker are the best difficult billiard games because there aren't so many players in the year of 2009 who shut down the game in one inning.
This is a point of view of the webmaster of http://www.billard-passion.fr
Happy new year !!!
Olivier
Is that how you got to your 54 run in 14.1? What's the difference?
787, haha, you'd need alot of years under your belt to get near 787. Where are all these average joes routinely running hundreds and thousands of points? You realize the game doesn't start with the balls neatly side by side, right? And even if you hit them very softly, you have to hit them in the right way or they end up all out of position. Hell, I play at least an hour or so of it a week, and I will never ever make 700. 787 in free game is way way beyond 54 in 14.1.
I see some things never change. The elitism in carom circles for one. And I thought it was only some of the old farts I play with here in Europe...
I play straight pool and straight rail carom. I started with straight rail and 3C 20 years ago when I lived in France, and I was like you guys (and most folks in my club): pocket billiards? Oh yeah, that's for bangers/teenagers/morons/those who can't play any better. Then 12 years ago I moved to the US and couldn't find a carom table anywhere in sight. So I started playing pool for lack of anything better. Pretty soon, I played 9-ball reasonably well. Then one day some guy came in the pool hall, proposed a game of 14.1 and whooped my ass. Me! A straight rail player who could almost averaged 14!
Tell you what friend: the day you perform a century run at straight pool, I dare you to come back here and honestly post that carom billiard requires more basic knowledge than pocket billiards. That statement alone tells me you never played anything other than 9-ball, if you ever played any pool at all.
You need to realize, pool is to carom what guitar playing is to violin: you can pick up a guitar and quickly produce a few chords that sound okay, while the violin guy will spend months pissing off the neighbors before producing anything vaguely audible. But if you want to play the Aranjuez concerto, you need as many years of experience, and every bit as much finesse as the violin player.
Carom isn't better, it's different. That's why I play both, and that's why you should too.
superminsoo
Registered
At first it seems like you have a valid point but not really because well... its not elitism but more of a defense tactic because you, failed to realize, that the pocket player who never has played straight rail started belittling what i spend a good portion of my time playing. Also, you accuse me of being an elitist. I take that personally because IM the one always convincing older gentlemen around me to give pocket ball a chance. So DO NOT go around acting high and mighty because Im younger than you. I dedicate and have dedicated a lot of my time playing billiards, although not as long as you. I dont mean to come off disrespectful, but you have.
How many average carom players know basic systems such as sids,5 and a half, etc versus average pocket players? And, how many pocket players play or have played carom billiards versus carom players who play or have played pocket players? Im not in any way justifying "The elitism in carom circles" but whos worse...? Someone who talks badly about something after only 'touching the surface' (only nine and eight ball) or someone who talks badly about something without even trying it?
I'd play more pool if the rooms were more non-smoker friendly... same with carom so i saved up enough money for one at home. I'd have both if i could. Stop with that condescending high and mighty attitude that you have... im not the one who went into a 14.1 thread about high runs and talked ****.... flame on.
Edit: I overlooked the part about the violin thing becase of my sudden rush of emtions. Well said. Both circles need more respect for each other. Also, if i ever got a century run playing 4 ball, i'd gladly take your dare.
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superminsoo
Registered
An average of 14 is respectable imo but were you expecting to beat someone in something you've never played before after learning how to 'play reasonably well' at 9 ball? Seems that u were pretty arrogant and a part of the elitist carom circle... lol. If it wasnt for that humbling experience, you might still be a part of the old farts' circle.
It's all billiards
If we stopped drawing lines between the games, the bar would rise across the board. In my view, between all forms of billiards, skill is measured by how well the player can manipulate the motion of the balls. The cueist who has the ability to better command the direction, speed and action of the balls will win over the cueist with a lesser degree of control.
Driven by the rules and requirements of the individual's game, skill sets obviously have to get prioritized during practice and development. Naturally, players of a single discipline inadvertently neglect "lower-priority" practice areas as they perfect the skills that they have deemed to be at the top of their list. However, in complete isolation from other forms, the tendency is to minimally develop certain skills to a mere fraction of the degree that is possible - even by the standard of novices from another discipline.
In truth, there is a tremendous overlap of skills that can be leveraged between all billiard games.
Some novice carom players lose emphasis on the importance of accurate hits while in the process of sifting though the mountain of speed/spin/rail material (there is a lot to digest and understand) - that is until kiss avoidance and position/safety tactics restore the precision contact to a high-priority practice item. In the end, a 3-cushion carom player that cannot achieve precise hits will suffer against a more complete player.
On the pool side, there is a tendency for newcomers to pay less initial attention on the precise speed of the object balls or exacting amounts of cue ball action (i.e. spin influence from balls and sequential rails) as they hone their fundamentals around achieving the precision hits they need to pocket balls. Later, as the need for good safety play and tactics rises, object ball speed and precision rail work become priorities.
Efren Reyes' relatively strong background in balkline/one-cushion/3-cushion provides support for the theory that his carom/pool cross-breeding contributes to what makes him so dangerous against the playing field he competes against. I would say that Torbjorn Blomdahl's interdisciplinary skills in snooker/pool games (along with the fact that he's got the competitive heart of a monster) give him an edge over his many carom-only experts.
Otherwise stated: I'm sure that very few (if any) tournament pool players could hold a candle to Reyes' carom game. The same could probably be said about Blomdahl's pool game vs the usual tournament carom players.
A player who dwells too much on which game is harder by trivializing the difficulty of other games is probably going to miss out on the main point and has their work still ahead of them... it's all billiards and we're all cueists.
-Ira
If we stopped drawing lines between the games, the bar would rise across the board. In my view, between all forms of billiards, skill is measured by how well the player can manipulate the motion of the balls. The cueist who has the ability to better command the direction, speed and action of the balls will win over the cueist with a lesser degree of control.
Driven by the rules and requirements of the individual's game, skill sets obviously have to get prioritized during practice and development. Naturally, players of a single discipline inadvertently neglect "lower-priority" practice areas as they perfect the skills that they have deemed to be at the top of their list. However, in complete isolation from other forms, the tendency is to minimally develop certain skills to a mere fraction of the degree that is possible - even by the standard of novices from another discipline.
In truth, there is a tremendous overlap of skills that can be leveraged between all billiard games.
Some novice carom players lose emphasis on the importance of accurate hits while in the process of sifting though the mountain of speed/spin/rail material (there is a lot to digest and understand) - that is until kiss avoidance and position/safety tactics restore the precision contact to a high-priority practice item. In the end, a 3-cushion carom player that cannot achieve precise hits will suffer against a more complete player.
On the pool side, there is a tendency for newcomers to pay less initial attention on the precise speed of the object balls or exacting amounts of cue ball action (i.e. spin influence from balls and sequential rails) as they hone their fundamentals around achieving the precision hits they need to pocket balls. Later, as the need for good safety play and tactics rises, object ball speed and precision rail work become priorities.
Efren Reyes' relatively strong background in balkline/one-cushion/3-cushion provides support for the theory that his carom/pool cross-breeding contributes to what makes him so dangerous against the playing field he competes against. I would say that Torbjorn Blomdahl's interdisciplinary skills in snooker/pool games (along with the fact that he's got the competitive heart of a monster) give him an edge over his many carom-only experts.
Otherwise stated: I'm sure that very few (if any) tournament pool players could hold a candle to Reyes' carom game. The same could probably be said about Blomdahl's pool game vs the usual tournament carom players.
A player who dwells too much on which game is harder by trivializing the difficulty of other games is probably going to miss out on the main point and has their work still ahead of them... it's all billiards and we're all cueists.
-Ira
Tap! Tap! Well Stated Ira Lee
What's there to appologize for?
I (alongside other true believers) am/are backing up an endangered (to the eyes of most unaware and uneducated Americans [not in an offensive way... heads up], apparently) and beautifully challenging game that is in need of more respect than what actual people really looked down upon as an "easy game".
When I play straight rail, it is NOT an easy game at any cost. It takes tremendous amount of delicacy within speed and skill to control those two other object balls while controling your own cueball; planning to prevent from hitting the corner balks (which are limit to three shots) and striving to make the most of the caroms as one can possibly go beyond the limit to.
You have no reason to appologize, Dean. This is why we are part of a Carom section. Because without people like billiardshot, Ira Lee (who we all should give tons of credit... no doubt), Dennis Dieckman, and every fanatic that just flatout loves this imperceivable, yet, wonderful game of carom billiards, we would not have had this section of the forums... we would just still be left with "Deno Andrews and Carom Billiards" (since the man has gone to do different things).
When Eric Yow and so many others grouped to tell the administrador to change that into "Carom Billiards", I vowed to take frequent visits to this section of the forums as much as possible.
I dream to have a building with 5-10 heated carom tables -with each discipline on one table- and give classes (of low tuition cost) to every single young child through adult and teach them the acknowlegment of carom.
Just like that video you put up...
superminsoo
Registered
Althought I am a little bias because I am a fan, like billiardshot wrote "Tap! Tap! Well Stated".
No need for for any sorries, thank you for starting the thread. Its always good to read what others think.
Thanks for the cue taps. It feels like I just made a good shot...
Dean_H: What's there to apologize about? Please proceed to post more straight rail and balkline links...
Why someone who obviously knows nothing about the game would bother to post something that ignorant is hilarious. Seriously, that may the most ignorant post I've seen on AZ in five years.
Put the balls ANYWHERE on the table except frozen in the corner and see if you can run 20 if you think the game is easy. To play this game right, you have to be a masse shot master, know how to drive the first ball very accurately around the table and back, and have almost perfect speed control of all the balls.
Go to youtube and type in Xavier Gretillat, watch his American series video. He puts the red and opponent white together facing the open table, and then gathers them onto the rail into a specific pattern. Repeatedly, without missing, from different positions.
When ANYONE here who thinks this game is easy is willing to bet they can gather them into the rail nurse like that, just post on AZ and we can bet some money.
Put the balls ANYWHERE on the table except frozen in the corner and see if you can run 20 if you think the game is easy. To play this game right, you have to be a masse shot master, know how to drive the first ball very accurately around the table and back, and have almost perfect speed control of all the balls.
Go to youtube and type in Xavier Gretillat, watch his American series video. He puts the red and opponent white together facing the open table, and then gathers them onto the rail into a specific pattern. Repeatedly, without missing, from different positions.
When ANYONE here who thinks this game is easy is willing to bet they can gather them into the rail nurse like that, just post on AZ and we can bet some money.
Dean_H, I agree there no reason for sorries.
Straight Rail - part of the Carom World. it Videos, Articles or Other info need to be posted.
Just as I believe Korean 4 Balls combine all the games in one, just view some of my early posts/threads.
Thank for the video.
Straight Rail - part of the Carom World. it Videos, Articles or Other info need to be posted.
Just as I believe Korean 4 Balls combine all the games in one, just view some of my early posts/threads.
Thank for the video.