Someone explain Black Boar prices to me.

[JAM]

I'm not sure, but as I recall -- and my memory is fading -- Black Boar Cues used to be located right around the corner from Pimlico Race Track in Baltimore, you know, "Hi. Ho. Pimlico."

There were two cue-makers with Black Boar at that time, though I cannot for the life of me remember who the other gentleman was.

Today, Black Boar Cues are in College Park, Maryland.

JAM

 

[DawgAndy]

Craig can afford all the BB made in a year. If only two people buy all the new stuff someone makes they, not the cuemaker, control the prices. Unlike other dealers or sellers if something doesn't sell in 5 minutes they can afford not to drop the prices until somebody buys it.

After the first catalog cues, no BB designs are repeated that helps the price.
I don't understand some of your guys animosity twords Craig and Tony. There's plenty of good stuff out there for us little people.

 

[OriontheHunter]

Craig can afford all the BB made in a year. If only two people buy all the new stuff someone makes they, not the cuemaker, control the prices. Unlike other dealers or sellers if something doesn't sell in 5 minutes they can afford not to drop the prices until somebody buys it.

To your point then, are Black Boar cue prices really reflective of the "real" market supply demand conditions as 2 suppliers have a substantial influence on supply today and what would happen to their prices if this "influence" on supply was removed? No disrepect to anyone, just a basic economic theory question. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

When you look at how the cues are made + assembled and the incredible attention to detail, quality of materials and engineering that goes into these cues, coupled with how well they hold up over time and how well they play- to me it is no suprise that Tonys cues have risen in value, I believe they are all diamonds in the rough.

Do diamonds in the rough really go for 10k each?

 

[JCIN]

That would be like trying to explain Martin Guitar pricing. I mean why would anyone buy one when you can get a Esteban for three easy payments of 49.99 right?

Look at the cue as a instrument. Fine instruments, much like fine timepieces and cars, bring a premium price.

Dude. I get the fine instrument part. I have owned an ass load of them.

Everyone, I know why a South West costs more than a Cuetech. I get that Tony has every cue sold from now till he decides to go to the beach for good.

What I am curious about is how a cue can jump so relatively quickly from one level to the next.

My question is how did BB go from being a fine instrument on par with Scruggs and Mottey to being on par with Bushka and Boti. I never got the memo, just poof, all of a sudden here comes the stratosphere.

 

[DawgAndy]

To your point then, are Black Boar cue prices really reflective of the "real" market supply demand conditions as 2 suppliers have a substantial influence on supply today and what would happen to their prices if this "influence" on supply was removed? No disrepect to anyone, just a basic economic theory question. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I don't think new BB reflect the "real" market. Just the whim of a couple people who can afford them. And I too mean no disrespect, it's just how the other half live.

 

[JCIN]

Now from my small base of knowledge comes this tidbit of information.

BB's are sold exclusively to 2 dealers. One of these dealers is more of a collector than a dealer and is located in the US. The other dealer is "Lucky" which if I remember correctly is based in Asia somewhere. The US dealer/collector rarely sells his stable of cues whereas the Asian dealers sells, sells and sells. The other few remaining BB's are made for pros and some of Tony's friends.

This is a great way to increase the price of any product anywhere. Very limited supply coming from a very small distribution market. Sad part is that the only real dealer you can buy from with just paying the over-inflated price is overseas. The other sad part is most of the BB's contain IVORY even though it procured within the US makes these cues almost impossible to get back to the US. Shipping IVORY in cues out of the US is easy, but ultimately rediculous to get back to the US.

All the above information leads to the very high market prices.

Now I have hit with a few BB's and the hit is good, but no different in my opinion than some 20-30 other cuemakers' products. To me all you are doing is buying a name. Ofcourse, this holds true with many other top-tier makers producing cues in the 3K++ area.

Whoop! There it is. The info I was looking for. Everything makes sense, we have seen this before, remember when you couldn't find a Cog without
giving an arm and a leg? I think Tony's cues are on the next level but if the above info is correct then this makes sense to me.

Thanks to everyone who pointed out that a Ferrari costs more than a Kia and if you have to ask you can't afford it, and that us "Little People" have lots of other cues to play with, and if someone thinks the price is too high to not buy some thing. Yup...Uh Huh...got it.

 

[seymore15074]

For that kind of money, they had better be laced with gold and diamonds, and some how enable me to make 50% more balls, otherwise I will just stick with a reasonably priced cue designed to play with. Just my opinion.

Same here, or at least come with boobs.

 

[xianmacx]

[/QUOTE]

My question is how did BB go from being a fine instrument on par with Scruggs and Mottey to being on par with Bushka and Boti. I never got the memo, just poof, all of a sudden here comes the stratosphere.[/QUOTE]


I agree...Every other top tier living cuemaker....ie Hercek, tascarella, B.szamboti, Have history that goes along with their fine instruments. Seems like BB is just like scruggs/Mottey/White.

IMO I see 2 levels of living cuemakers

1. Tasc, hercek, B.szamboti. etc.
2. Scruggs, Mottey, White, etc.

IMO they all make a very similar quality 4 point basic cue. The only reason the first group can charge 2 times as much is because of the History that goes into their cues. Bushka, Spain, G.Szamboti.

I completely agree, BB goes into catagory 2 with me.

 

[Spade]

Allen Hopkins used to play with one.
Ive heard some cuemakers say Tony is a perfectionist and makes a perfect cue.

They are truly beautiful

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I have 3 cues, and i played/gambled with every single one of them.

Do i happen to think that they are worth the prices they are commanding right now? I have no idea. I am not in the market to buy one, so i don't care.

If i didn't have one, and was looking to buy one to play with, would i pay the prices that people are asking for them? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Fortunately, i got mine, are a reasonable price, back in the day before this big BB market boom.

See the thing is, i don't think any piece of wood and metal is worth thousand and thousands of dollars.
To me, that is just ridiculous.
I never got a Black Boar because i thought i could turn it around and flip it for a decent score. I got mine to play with. And as such, i happen to think that they play great.

But at the same time, artists should be rewarded for their craft, and the fact that Tony's work has skyrocketed in price, is a reflection on the market for his particular work.

Do i think that a cue should get stuck in a trophy case, on a wall and be looked at? No. Personally, anyone who wants to get a cue, so they can look at it has got something wrong with them.

Cues were meant to be used.

As for people collecting cues for future investment, well business is business, and you do what you have to, but personally, i could care less about prices.
I like the way they play, and have no desperate need for any cash, and don't see myself ever selling them as a result, so the whole BB price issue is a non issue for me.

Funny
There is a guy in the poolroom, who has been lusting at one of my 6 pointers for around 8 years. Whenever i bring it out, he immediately has to hit a few balls with it cause he literally jumps 2 speeds and makes everything he shoots at with it.
This guy when he wanted to buy a new cue, i told him i'd put him in touch with Tony, and he for whatever reason, decided against it, despite the fact that the best pool he ever played was with that Black Boar in his hand.

He opted to go with a NAME cuemaker, and paid a lung for it, waiting a couple of years to get it.
Can he make a ball with it. Sure. He plays ok, but when it comes down to it, he can't play the way he WANTS to play with it.
He actually wasn't to thrilled with the original shafts, and got another name cue guy to make him a set, so were always busting his stones because of that. "THIS GUY goes and spends a boatload on a new cue, and the shafts don't even roll straight."

So i'm always teasing him when i come in with my cue, and i pretend to smell it like a cigar, and stroke it like a pet, and fondle it and basically do anything i can to get his attention to bust his stones.
I have even taken pictures of it on the cell phone and sent them to him just to stick it in even harder!

When someone asked me the other day as to why i was doing all that when i was laughing at him, i said "he loves this cue and has wanted it forever", and they were like, "but he has a @#$#$!" (insert high end cue) and they didn't believe me, and they asked him...."do you really like his cue that much? WHY?"

His reply was, "That stick he has there plays better then anything else on this planet. It's the greatest hunk of wood ever created"

Now would he pay the prices that they are commanding today to get a new one? Probably not. Maybe he might have ponied up years ago to get one, but not now at todays rates.
But if you were to take price out of the picture and give him the choice of any cue that he has ever played with to choose from?
It's a no brainer. Without a doubt, he'd pick the Black Boar.

It's all a matter of preference.
If you want it at that price, then buy it at that price.
If you don't, then don't, but if your not the one shelling out the money for one, then why even bother criticizing?

 

[JCIN]

It's all a matter of preference.
If you want it at that price, then buy it at that price.
If you don't, then don't, but if your not the one shelling out the money for one, then why even bother criticizing?

LOL. How many times is this going to be said in this thread.

Just glad to be here.
Hope I can help the ballcub.

Those guys played great today.

If you have to ask you can't afford it.

Help, I'm running out of cliche's.

 

[rikdee]

I liked that line too. I have a funny feeling that to use them "properly" you must first play like Busty.

I have a feeling that if Busty had any cue in his hand, he'd still play like Busty.

_Rick

 

[cuenut]

I think Tony makes a great cue, as many others. I rank him in the realm of Mazino, etc. who also command high $$$, but the BBs seem to be getting out of line, but if the market is there, who knows. I think much of it is speculative buying, hoping that the cues will continue to increase in value in addition to their aesthetics. If I had the same $5000+ to spend, I'd be looking to get a Gus, Barry, Gina, etc., but a BB wouldn't necessarily be thrown off of my potential buy list. Give it another 2 years. If his cues are still getting these high prices, they may stay that way for the long haul.

 

[skins]

I think Tony makes a great cue, as many others. I rank him in the realm of Mazino, etc. who also command high $$$, but the BBs seem to be getting out of line, but if the market is there, who knows. I think much of it is speculative buying, hoping that the cues will continue to increase in value in addition to their aesthetics. If I had the same $5000+ to spend, I'd be looking to get a Gus, Barry, Gina, etc., but a BB wouldn't necessarily be thrown off of my potential buy list. Give it another 2 years. If his cues are still getting these high prices, they may stay that way for the long haul.

unfortunately for most, Tony has priced his cues out of the "normal" buyers market and those who can afford them now really don't have to worry about whether they will be a good investment. if they are "moved", most likely they will be sold or traded to others in similar financial situations and/or collecting circles which may keep them somewhat close to the prices paid for if not more. as with the future value of almost anything, it's the ones able to afford owning coupled with those willing to remain owners of an item, that can greatly determine the potential future value of that item.

 

[breakshot]

Now from my small base of knowledge comes this tidbit of information.

BB's are sold exclusively to 2 dealers. One of these dealers is more of a collector than a dealer and is located in the US. The other dealer is "Lucky" which if I remember correctly is based in Asia somewhere. The US dealer/collector rarely sells his stable of cues whereas the Asian dealers sells, sells and sells. The other few remaining BB's are made for pros and some of Tony's friends.

This is a great way to increase the price of any product anywhere. Very limited supply coming from a very small distribution market. Sad part is that the only real dealer you can buy from with just paying the over-inflated price is overseas. The other sad part is most of the BB's contain IVORY even though it procured within the US makes these cues almost impossible to get back to the US. Shipping IVORY in cues out of the US is easy, but ultimately rediculous to get back to the US.

All the above information leads to the very high market prices.

I am the US collector, and no, I dont like to, and don't want to sell any of my BB cues because I believe they are some of the best cues made. That is why I chose to make Tony a offer of buying as many cues as he could make me. Which has ended up being between 6-8 cues a year for the last 3 years (not many!)--and yes Lucky is the other collector, If my info is correct he would rather hold on to them than sell them , because he too treasures them also, I believe he has sold only about 15-20 BB cues over the past 5 years.

This is why I have tried to purchase some of the cues on the second hand market, and the prices that I have paid as well as other collectors have paid have been established by you the sellers who own the cues, and MOST of the issues with BB prices are in response to the second hand market, which Tony has no control over- it is a free market that goes up and down with supply and demand.

Craig

 

[breakshot]

Craig,

The credit/story you're giving is slightly vague.

So - from what I've just read the only work Tony did on the original cues was design the inlays. His son created them on CAD and then wrapped and finished them? His brother Raymond did something right? It doesn't say on the website.

Why is Tony Sr. getting all of the credit in the original post but he didn't really do anything on the 1st gen of cues from what I've read. Perhaps the website (which is very entertaining to browse by the way, good job) needs to be a little more specific?

Seems as though you should give Tim Scruggs/Bill McDaniels/Mike Cochran much more credit anytime you mention the first catalogue of Black Boar cues. I guess then I have to ask, would a Tim Scruggs cue equivalent in design and inlay bring the same prices as these 1st gen Black Boars?

I'm just trying to clarify things for myself. I'm a bit confused.

Thanks,

I will try to put it perspective:
The 4point cues (catalog cues/ production cues)- these were the first cues that Tony sold, there were over 400 of these cues. Of these 400 cues ONLY the first 12 were Blanks produced by Bill McDaniel, with Tim Scruggs acting as the facilitator.

As for Tonys involvment in these first 400 cues:
the AS series stands for Anthony Sciannella
the RS series stands for Raymond Sciannella
the FS series stands for Frank Sciannella

These are the 3 brothers who initially went into the cue making business.
Their initial positions were:
Tony would build the cues
Raymond would do the book keeping and help with some of the cue building
Frank would be in charge of the marketing

Tony's son did develop alot of the computer technology in the shop, but Tony has ALWAYS had hands on construction for every cue that left the shop!!

And don't forget these are only the 4pt cues-- when he started making the 6 point cues was when he started working with little to no help, that is why the production numbers dropped considerably.

He has made less than 100 --6point cues
and less than 50 --8 point cues

That is why I am trying to collect as many 6 and 8 point cues as I can find.

Craig

 

[kittyzilla]

I will try to put it perspective:
The 4point cues (catalog cues/ production cues)- these were the first cues that Tony sold, there were over 400 of these cues. Of these 400 cues ONLY the first 12 were Blanks produced by Bill McDaniel, with Tim Scruggs acting as the facilitator.

As for Tonys involvment in these first 400 cues:
the AS series stands for Anthony Sciannella
the RS series stands for Raymond Sciannella
the FS series stands for Frank Sciannella

These are the 3 brothers who initially went into the cue making business.
Their initial positions were:
Tony would build the cues
Raymond would do the book keeping and help with some of the cue building
Frank would be in charge of the marketing

Tony's son did develop alot of the computer technology in the shop, but Tony has ALWAYS had hands on construction for every cue that left the shop!!

And don't forget these are only the 4pt cues-- when he started making the 6 point cues was when he started working with little to no help, that is why the production numbers dropped considerably.

He has made less than 100 --6point cues
and less than 50 --8 point cues

That is why I am trying to collect as many 6 and 8 point cues as I can find.

Craig

Well if you have any ones with no points or 4 points you can always donate to the needy.

 

[mantis99]

If you owned a million dollar Stratavarius violin would you be able to play like a master, and for that matter are they also laced with gold and diamonds.

These cues are great playing instruments- especially in the hands of a master, but they are also great investments and rare artwork for collecting and viewing.--and besides that, when they are used properly I believe they expand the players realm of what is possible within the laws of physics in the game of billiards.

CS

A Stratavarius is not only a violin of the utmost craftmanship, but is also made of wood that is no longer available anywhere. Because of this, its sound can never be truely duplicated.

A BB cue may also be of the utmost craftsmanship (I have never hit one), but it is not made of anything more special than another cue. If I am not mistaken, they are also still being made too.

I have nothing against a BB cue per say, however, its pricing simply does not make sense. Using the Stratavarius example again. A Strat is considered, without doubt, the greatest violin one can play. A BB cue is highly respected, but not considered by all as better than some other big names such as Cognoscenti, Southwest, or certainly Balabushka. Also, there will not ever be another original Balabushka made. So, from an art valuse stand point, how can a BB be priced more than a Balabushka? Just doesn't make sense!!

 

[breakshot]

visit Tony's shop

JCIN (Justin)-- To try and answer some/all of your questions --Tony has told me to pass along that if you ever want, you (as well as anyone who wants) is welcome to come see his shop and see what he does. Ask anyone, he has always had open doors to anyone who wishes to come in and visit.

Craig