Sore Loser

[ctran]

oh man this is normal, just play to your best. I wouldn't mind if someone call me lucky, as long as I play well and I win.

 

[PaulieB]

Gold mines don't produce amazing amounts of gold every single day ... sometimes there are dry days. Take what you can get from him when you can get it and appreciate it for the value it has. If all you have to pay for the free lessons is his using excuses to cover his bruised pride you are still making out. Be grateful, agree with him when he says there were some "funny rolls", offer to buy him a beer because of the "dumb luck" you managed to get ... and keep sucking up the free knowledge.

Shutting down the free and very advanced lessons you are getting due to pride on your part is just silly, in my opinion.

 

[JMW]

I once had a great player in my pool room who aged as the years passed. Eventually I became good enough to beat him on his worst day in his worst years. Not a whole lot to be proud of. I like you, took relish in beating him when I had the chance. Once he saw that I could beat him, he quit playing me and I lost the best view of 60 years of experience.

New York Blackie in his prime would beat on guys like me for breakfast.

My youth failed to have enough wisdom to provide the smart thing to do.

I didn't realize at the time, much about Blackie's past or even current situation and was just interested in finding out his "secrets" and eventually beating him. What I should have realized is that Blackie shared some of his secrets with guys like me for the few dollars that he managed to steal from our ever-flowing wallets. Even in his 70's Blackie only got a little money from SSI, maybe $300 a month as I recall. He would hustle a little pool here and there where he could make a score. In the latter years, he was forced to take whatever crumbs he could find, sometimes playing only for a few dollars per game with locals. He would occasionally share some of his knowledge with me, but mostly I learned the "old way", by paying my dues, getting beat on by the better player and watching how they did it and hopefully, learning as I paid.

Blackie never made any big money off of me. Most of the time we played for $5 or $10 a game one pocket. I almost always lost. Occasionally I would break even and once I got one game ahead, he quit me, never to play me again. If only my lack of wisdom hadn't failed me. If only I would have imagined what it was like to wear his shoes. Alas, I was too full of myself, my ideas and goals to see what really should have been done.

Instead of making it my life goal to best an aging champion, I should have found a way to befriend him in his later years, perhaps not by offering charity but perhaps by offering a mutually beneficial alliance that would keep his dignity intact and still provide me what I actually wanted. I could have offered to pay him for lessons and perhaps provide needed "assistance" where practical. I could have asked him to become my "Pool Sensei", in the pool world, an honored title for one who has walked the walk and gone before me. Instead, I winced at the idea that he quit me when I could finally beat him, depriving me of the opportunity to regain some of the money that I had lost to him over the years. I felt that Blackie had somehow deprived me of the opportunity to "prove myself" by the student besting the teacher. Unfortunately, that was about as myopic as one can get. I had the opportunity to thank Blackie for the years of thrashings that he had given me; those thrashings that made me strong, those thrashings that taught me how to win, those thrashing that helped form the pool player that I am. Who knows, if I hadn't been so nearsighted, I might have stayed under his tutelage for a few additional years. It could have made an important difference, perhaps the learning curve could have been shortened a bit or perhaps, it could have made my journey just a bit more fun; to see the world through his eyes rather than my self-centered, testosterone-filled perspective.

Blackie might have been able to continue guiding me on my journey, but instead, I made the decision to whine about my lot in life and while I didn't completely alienate him, I did lose the benefit of his life's experience, at least as far as pool was concerned. I just didn't have the wherewithal to do the smartest thing and I didn't have the benefit of a forum like this to have someone share with me their thoughts and perspectives.

There are different types of "sore losers". Hopefully, with the discussions in this thread you will broaden your perspective and enhance your journey.

Best Regards,

Cool post and great message. Thanks for taking time to share!

 

[Razor]

I once had a great player in my pool room who aged as the years passed. Eventually I became good enough to beat him on his worst day in his worst years. Not a whole lot to be proud of. I like you, took relish in beating him when I had the chance. Once he saw that I could beat him, he quit playing me and I lost the best view of 60 years of experience.

[SNIP]

Best Regards,

JoeyA - that is one of the best posts I have read read in long, long time and so right on the money...I enjoyed it very much. Not only a pool lesson, but also a life lesson.

Peppersauce - you have received some great advice in this thread. The only thing I can add is read all of it closely, then be true to yourself and do what speaks to you personally...

Peace.

~Razor

 

[peppersauce]

.....................

 

[f67bird]

Tap Tap Tap

You have just found more (and this time free) priceless advice!
I am happy to see you accept it.
With your appetite for learning, you should expect to go far in your endeavors...

p.s. I wish that I had someone to show me what to do and what not to do when I began this hobby, I could have possibly been far better...or maybe just could have shown others what to do.

I really can't thank you all enough! And you certainly have a way with words, Joey--I get the message loud and clear. You know...it's so much easier to see what you perceive as faults in others and completely overlook your own faults. I wish I could shake all your hands and buy you all a round. Looking back at what was going on in my mind when I started this thread...it was just a gripe thread. Just had some stuff on my narrow mind and wanted to vent a little but the responses I got back were solid gold and really opened my eyes to different perspectives than my own. I'm still young in life and have a lot to learn. Getting schooled like this can be a tough pill to swallow when you realize your viewpoint has been slanted in the wrong direction, but thanks everyone for being honest with me. Very much appreciated!

 

[pwd72s]

Joey A...you're the man! What an insightful post!

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I clipped your post just for space reasons. Every word was solid gold. The best post I have read in quite awhile. Unfortunately for all of us, hindsight it always 20-20 or better, foresight not so good! If the original poster or even one person takes advantage of your experience that will be fantastic. Few young men place the value they should on the old giants. That was one thing that helped my game early on, I played in a ratty old hall and watched the old men that had grown up playing straight pool. I copied their style first not so consciously and then very deliberately.

Hu

Thanks Hu.

I agree whole heartedly with JoeyA also. Sometimes you just don't know what's the right thing to do. I've heard that honesty is the best policy & I believe that it is. Maybe the next time he says 'you're so lucky' you should just say you're so lucky because you've gotten better because of all that he's taught you & that you appreciate it. Maybe when you win, ask him if he's dumping on you to make you feel good & then ask him how he feels about dumping. Tell him how you feel. Ask him outright, 'we're both playing to win, right'? I did not feel bad when I beat my old guy but he was not helping me. I had to 'steal' his knowledge & then beat him with what he was too selfish to give. When we started I was 13 & he was about 63. Good luck w/ it. Hope it turns out well.

Sometimes you learn from the school of hard knocks and sometimes you learn from the experience of those who have gone before you. What matters most, is that you learn.

Cool post and great message. Thanks for taking time to share!

Thanks JMW.

JoeyA - that is one of the best posts I have read read in long, long time and so right on the money...I enjoyed it very much. Not only a pool lesson, but also a life lesson.

Peppersauce - you have received some great advice in this thread. The only thing I can add is read all of it closely, then be true to yourself and do what speaks to you personally...

Peace.

~Razor

As you age, sometimes you recognize yourself in others who are just starting the journey and simply want to make their journey a little sweeter. It's all good.

I really can't thank you all enough! And you certainly have a way with words, Joey--I get the message loud and clear. You know...it's so much easier to see what you perceive as faults in others and completely overlook your own faults. I wish I could shake all your hands and buy you all a round. Looking back at what was going on in my mind when I started this thread...it was just a gripe thread. Just had some stuff on my narrow mind and wanted to vent a little but the responses I got back were solid gold and really opened my eyes to different perspectives than my own. I'm still young in life and have a lot to learn. Getting schooled like this can be a tough pill to swallow when you realize your viewpoint has been slanted in the wrong direction, but thanks everyone for being honest with me. Very much appreciated!

Thank you PepperSauce. You haven't done anything that I haven't done.

Try La Costena Chipotle Peppers in Adobo Sauce. It comes in a a 7 0z can. Puree the entire contents of the can until they are, well, pureed. Take a portion, perhaps two ounces and mix in some mayonaisse to taste. Use on rice, bread, chicken, just about anything that needs a little "pop". Refrigerate and set aside the remaining balance of 5 ounces of pureed chipotle peppers for us at a later date. I don't have to tell you to refrigerate anything with mayonaisse. :wink:

(This post is sure to get moved to the NPR forum).:grin:

p.s. I wish that I had someone to show me what to do and what not to do when I began this hobby, I could have possibly been far better...or maybe just could have shown others what to do.

Me too, especially in my formative years. It is also good to be grateful for what you have. Being appreciative of what you do have, multiplies the opportunities for future bounties.

 

[jalapus logan]

I once had a great player in my pool room who aged as the years passed. Eventually I became good enough to beat him on his worst day in his worst years. Not a whole lot to be proud of. I like you, took relish in beating him when I had the chance. Once he saw that I could beat him, he quit playing me and I lost the best view of 60 years of experience.

New York Blackie in his prime would beat on guys like me for breakfast.

My youth failed to have enough wisdom to provide the smart thing to do.

I didn't realize at the time, much about Blackie's past or even current situation and was just interested in finding out his "secrets" and eventually beating him. What I should have realized is that Blackie shared some of his secrets with guys like me for the few dollars that he managed to steal from our ever-flowing wallets. Even in his 70's Blackie only got a little money from SSI, maybe $300 a month as I recall. He would hustle a little pool here and there where he could make a score. In the latter years, he was forced to take whatever crumbs he could find, sometimes playing only for a few dollars per game with locals. He would occasionally share some of his knowledge with me, but mostly I learned the "old way", by paying my dues, getting beat on by the better player and watching how they did it and hopefully, learning as I paid.

Blackie never made any big money off of me. Most of the time we played for $5 or $10 a game one pocket. I almost always lost. Occasionally I would break even and once I got one game ahead, he quit me, never to play me again. If only my lack of wisdom hadn't failed me. If only I would have imagined what it was like to wear his shoes. Alas, I was too full of myself, my ideas and goals to see what really should have been done.

Instead of making it my life goal to best an aging champion, I should have found a way to befriend him in his later years, perhaps not by offering charity but perhaps by offering a mutually beneficial alliance that would keep his dignity intact and still provide me what I actually wanted. I could have offered to pay him for lessons and perhaps provide needed "assistance" where practical. I could have asked him to become my "Pool Sensei", in the pool world, an honored title for one who has walked the walk and gone before me. Instead, I winced at the idea that he quit me when I could finally beat him, depriving me of the opportunity to regain some of the money that I had lost to him over the years. I felt that Blackie had somehow deprived me of the opportunity to "prove myself" by the student besting the teacher. Unfortunately, that was about as myopic as one can get. I had the opportunity to thank Blackie for the years of thrashings that he had given me; those thrashings that made me strong, those thrashings that taught me how to win, those thrashing that helped form the pool player that I am. Who knows, if I hadn't been so nearsighted, I might have stayed under his tutelage for a few additional years. It could have made an important difference, perhaps the learning curve could have been shortened a bit or perhaps, it could have made my journey just a bit more fun; to see the world through his eyes rather than my self-centered, testosterone-filled perspective.

Blackie might have been able to continue guiding me on my journey, but instead, I made the decision to whine about my lot in life and while I didn't completely alienate him, I did lose the benefit of his life's experience, at least as far as pool was concerned. I just didn't have the wherewithal to do the smartest thing and I didn't have the benefit of a forum like this to have someone share with me their thoughts and perspectives.

There are different types of "sore losers". Hopefully, with the discussions in this thread you will broaden your perspective and enhance your journey.

Best Regards,

It is sad to me that "pride" coupled with a lack of other skill sets frequently causes pool players golden years to resemble tin years. It may be beneficial for both parties that once the "student" is able to match or even best the "master" for another arrangement to be made. Why not just offer to go ahead and pay for some lessons from the fella. I mean, clearly this guy has knowledge that you find worthwhile. Surely that is worth something? In fact, it is probably worth a lot more than $5 - $10 per game and I'm sure he would find the offer flattering and respectful.

It's really too bad that legends like NY Blackie and many others still feel like they must scuffle about playing cheap games for pennies in order to make ends meet. There are better avenues available for them. And lessons are a more honest approach to both teacher and student, IMO. At least when the student has become competitive with the teacher.

 

[krupa]

I once had a great player in my pool room who aged as the years passed. Eventually I became good enough to beat him on his worst day in his worst years. Not a whole lot to be proud of. I like you, took relish in beating him when I had the chance. Once he saw that I could beat him, he quit playing me and I lost the best view of 60 years of experience.

New York Blackie in his prime would beat on guys like me for breakfast.

My youth failed to have enough wisdom to provide the smart thing to do.

I didn't realize at the time, much about Blackie's past or even current situation and was just interested in finding out his "secrets" and eventually beating him. What I should have realized is that Blackie shared some of his secrets with guys like me for the few dollars that he managed to steal from our ever-flowing wallets. Even in his 70's Blackie only got a little money from SSI, maybe $300 a month as I recall. He would hustle a little pool here and there where he could make a score. In the latter years, he was forced to take whatever crumbs he could find, sometimes playing only for a few dollars per game with locals. He would occasionally share some of his knowledge with me, but mostly I learned the "old way", by paying my dues, getting beat on by the better player and watching how they did it and hopefully, learning as I paid.

Blackie never made any big money off of me. Most of the time we played for $5 or $10 a game one pocket. I almost always lost. Occasionally I would break even and once I got one game ahead, he quit me, never to play me again. If only my lack of wisdom hadn't failed me. If only I would have imagined what it was like to wear his shoes. Alas, I was too full of myself, my ideas and goals to see what really should have been done.

Instead of making it my life goal to best an aging champion, I should have found a way to befriend him in his later years, perhaps not by offering charity but perhaps by offering a mutually beneficial alliance that would keep his dignity intact and still provide me what I actually wanted. I could have offered to pay him for lessons and perhaps provide needed "assistance" where practical. I could have asked him to become my "Pool Sensei", in the pool world, an honored title for one who has walked the walk and gone before me. Instead, I winced at the idea that he quit me when I could finally beat him, depriving me of the opportunity to regain some of the money that I had lost to him over the years. I felt that Blackie had somehow deprived me of the opportunity to "prove myself" by the student besting the teacher. Unfortunately, that was about as myopic as one can get. I had the opportunity to thank Blackie for the years of thrashings that he had given me; those thrashings that made me strong, those thrashings that taught me how to win, those thrashing that helped form the pool player that I am. Who knows, if I hadn't been so nearsighted, I might have stayed under his tutelage for a few additional years. It could have made an important difference, perhaps the learning curve could have been shortened a bit or perhaps, it could have made my journey just a bit more fun; to see the world through his eyes rather than my self-centered, testosterone-filled perspective.

Blackie might have been able to continue guiding me on my journey, but instead, I made the decision to whine about my lot in life and while I didn't completely alienate him, I did lose the benefit of his life's experience, at least as far as pool was concerned. I just didn't have the wherewithal to do the smartest thing and I didn't have the benefit of a forum like this to have someone share with me their thoughts and perspectives.

There are different types of "sore losers". Hopefully, with the discussions in this thread you will broaden your perspective and enhance your journey.

Best Regards,

I was all prepared to say something about the original post and then I read this. It completely changed my perspective on this topic.

 

[itsfroze]

Great Post

Some very wise words, great post JoeyA.

 

[ShootingArts]

the golden age

It is sad to me that "pride" coupled with a lack of other skill sets frequently causes pool players golden years to resemble tin years. It may be beneficial for both parties that once the "student" is able to match or even best the "master" for another arrangement to be made. Why not just offer to go ahead and pay for some lessons from the fella. I mean, clearly this guy has knowledge that you find worthwhile. Surely that is worth something? In fact, it is probably worth a lot more than $5 - $10 per game and I'm sure he would find the offer flattering and respectful.

It's really too bad that legends like NY Blackie and many others still feel like they must scuffle about playing cheap games for pennies in order to make ends meet. There are better avenues available for them. And lessons are a more honest approach to both teacher and student, IMO. At least when the student has become competitive with the teacher.

Sad truth is that for many, pool players are not, the only thing golden about that age is the water they can't hold anymore!


Excellent thoughts in the rest of your post.

Hu

 

[JoeyA]

It is sad to me that "pride" coupled with a lack of other skill sets frequently causes pool players golden years to resemble tin years. It may be beneficial for both parties that once the "student" is able to match or even best the "master" for another arrangement to be made. Why not just offer to go ahead and pay for some lessons from the fella. I mean, clearly this guy has knowledge that you find worthwhile. Surely that is worth something? In fact, it is probably worth a lot more than $5 - $10 per game and I'm sure he would find the offer flattering and respectful.

It's really too bad that legends like NY Blackie and many others still feel like they must scuffle about playing cheap games for pennies in order to make ends meet. There are better avenues available for them. And lessons are a more honest approach to both teacher and student, IMO. At least when the student has become competitive with the teacher.

The only way that better avenues will be made available to the legends of yesterday is with individuals making the effort to reach out to those who have gone before us.

 

[pdcue]

Thanks Hu. I kind of made it sound like I'm fishing for compliments from this gentleman. Not so. I just don't see why he acts like that. I hate to lose, but I always try to be gracious in defeat. I've had a lot of practice losing though, lol.

For better or for worse, many good players behave this way.

I agree with the 'take him for what he is' replies.

IMHO - in a way you are disapointed in him because he doesn't act
like you do. You might want to consider that for a while.

Dale

 

[PGHteacher]

I personally wouldn’t coddle him; next time I beat him and he got sore I would just say “you know for as much as you know and as great a player as you are I have noticed you whine when the balls don’t roll your way; did you always do that?”

I like to be straight up with people and tell them how I feel, I wouldn’t be afraid of “offending” him and having him never give you help or play with you again because you will find that in most cases the older one gets that harder it is to “offend” them. You could just sit there and not say anything and let your opinion of him erode as the years go by and you get better as he gets feebler but I wouldn’t suggest it. That is just how I would handle it.

 

[Dan Harriman]

Never lose on purpose

There is an older gentleman at the room I play at who teaches me all kinds of helpful things and always gives me good advice. He is extremely knowledgeable and an excellent player but he is such a sore loser it ruins the game for me. I play him as often as possible because he has such a wealth of knowledge and is willing to share it with me for free. I don't beat him often but sometimes I play really solid and stomp him. When this happens...it's everything but him. The balls, table, I 'just get so lucky', etc. When he gets into that mode it's almost not worth it to me to put up with it. Most people, I would tell them where to stick it but this guy has players the likes of Gabe Owen, Corey Deuel, and Danny Harriman ask him to teach them some stuff and when the local pro-speed guys have questions he's the one they go to for answers. Aside from the temper tantrums he's a super nice guy and I like him. As long as he is winning he is a pleasure to be around and I GREATLY appreciate his willingness to teach me, I just wish I didn't have to listen to all his crap when I actually have a good day and beat him. Just makes me want to dump so he'll shut up and stop making excuses and tearing my game down. What do you guys think? Small price to pay for the knowledge and instruction I'm getting or am I crazy for putting up with it?

Practice straight pool, you will eventually find that it's not so important to have someone firing back at you. If your game is rotation then play the ghost, the best practice you will ever get is time on the table by yourself - I encourage 14.1 re-rack in practice regiment.

 

[GearHead_1]

Pride (noun):
1.a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.

Not an admirable trait in my opinion. Nothing wrong with integrity and confidence.

There is a difference between taking pride in what one does and being prideful. It's sometimes more difficult to be a good winner than it is to be a humble loser. I see nothing wrong with taking every shot as if a $1000 bucks were riding on it. That said, when you have to pay, do it with class and start thinking about how you're going to get it back.

To the O.P., If you are able to beat him and still feel his wisdom is valuable, go ahead and beat him and then respectfully hand him the prize and thank him for what he taught you that day. If you show genuine appreciation, I'll bet he'll continue to play with you.

 

[Okie]

I took Joey's advice to heart yesterday. I have my own "blackie" here in OKC. I asked him last night if he would be willing to teach me and that I was willing to pay. Being true to the old school from which he emerged, he kinda chuckled and starting talking about the guy playing at the next table who is a stronger player than myself. He never said I should play him but he never answered my question either.

Well he didn't directly answer it

 

[JoeyA]

I took Joey's advice to heart yesterday. I have my own "blackie" here in OKC. I asked him last night if he would be willing to teach me and that I was willing to pay. Being true to the old school from which he emerged, he kinda chuckled and starting talking about the guy playing at the next table who is a stronger player than myself. He never said I should play him but he never answered my question either.

Well he didn't directly answer it

Maybe OKC Blackie, is scared of his own teaching ability. Some "old school" guys don't teach like today's instructors. However, he might have been chuckling because he taught the better player at the next table.

Let us know how it works out. Give the old timer his respect and you might get what you want in return.

You might just ask him to watch you play the nine ball ghost and ask him to make suggestions as you play and to explain why or how what he is suggesting. Don't get too complicated with him. Some people like to keep it simple and don't know how to communicate the finer nuances of cueing.

 

[Okie]

Maybe OKC Blackie, is scared of his own teaching ability. Some "old school" guys don't teach like today's instructors. However, he might have been chuckling because he taught the better player at the next table.

Let us know how it works out. Give the old timer his respect and you might get what you want in return.

You might just ask him to watch you play the nine ball ghost and ask him to make suggestions as you play and to explain why or how what he is suggesting. Don't get too complicated with him. Some people like to keep it simple and don't know how to communicate the finer nuances of cueing.

I always make a point of walking to wherever he is in the room and shaking his hand when I arrive. Have done that for years. I love his stories and observations.

I think by pointing out the better player he was saying "step up to the mike...all the learning you need is right there". Later that night he walked over and watched me play league and made small talk when I was away from the table. I bet he fires something my way in time.