sound of a cue hit

M

mikeridethe9

Registered
What in the construction of a cue gives it that hard "ping" sound when you hit with it? By ping I mean the sound a Southwest usually makes. Is it the pin? or is it the construction of the butt? or a combination of the two. I initially thought it was the brass big pin but I am not so sure, as I had an old Mc dermott with a 5/16x14 pin and its got that ping. this cue is a sold maple with some floating points. I assume the butt is a "3 piece" But not positive. I've used different tips over the years on it and the sound only changed slightly with different tips. The only thing I can figure is that this cue has a solid maple forearm. that's where the ping comes from??? I have a 2 titlist conversions with a radial pins,"no ping". a QP with a 3/8 10 aluminum "no ping"
What do you guys think?
 
I thought that too, but southwest cues are know for that sound. how can their maple shafts make that sound, other cue makers shafts do not? I know wood can vary, but straight grain maple is straight grain maple, right?
I though maybe the Ferrule too Joey But that Mc derrmott has a regular old ferrule
 
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mikeridethe9 said:
I thought that too, but southwest cues are know for that sound. how can their maple shafts make that sound, other cue makers shafts do not? I know wood can vary, but straight grain maple is straight grain maple, right?
I though maybe the Ferrule too Joey But that Mc derrmott has a regular old ferrule
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McD uses old Ivorine ferrule.
Melamine is the G9 variety. Really hard and pingy.
Also tight grain shafts usually ping more than wide grain ones.
Not all the time but usually.
 
My Schon R6 shafts have the micarta ferrules and ping. One more so than the other.
 
mikeridethe9 said:
With that being said, If I had a titlist blank converted, to get that "ping" or "hit" what would you do. or can you even get that from a full splice cue?
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There are many factors, none of which are determined by the splice type. Being full splice doesn't make any difference in this situation. I would first begin with the butt and listen for the tone of it, and then same with the shaft. If the shaft isn't a good match, i'd make a new shaft to match. If both components are sound (pun intended), then i'd look at the bumper.

Is the bumper big? Is it hard or soft rubber? Is it threaded in, pushed in, or locked in with a screw? The smaller & harder the rubber, and the most secured it is, the better tone the cue will have.

I would also consider the tip thickness. Regardless of hard or soft (not considering extremes), the sound can be affected by how much leather is on there. The thinner the tip, the more audible the hit will be. Ferrule material, as mentioned, can affect the sound as well. Even the technique used to install the ferrule will affect the sound. A capped melamine will almost always be louder than a through cut melamine, given the same tip on the same cue.

These are things I would consider first. Others may be different. I depend on tonal characteristics as a staple standard for determining how I build my cues & what components & materials to use. It begins with choosing the raw woods & builds from there. When trying to tune other builders' cues, there are times when it simply cannot be done to satisfaction. Some cues are simply duds.
 
qbilder said:
It's the sum of all parts. Even the bumper affects the sound.
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I agree with this, with a gentle leaning towards the shaft itself.

However, concerning the bumper, I have a special case that turned out very interesting in how I had to solve it. I have a cue that would ring like a tuning fork -- an extended "ping!" -- everytime I hit a ball. When I'd play with that cue, people would tell me the cue sounded like one of those el cheapie titanium cues. But I loved the hit of that cue, because it was resonant all the way to my grip hand (I prefer cues that "talk" to me).

It wasn't until I installed -- get this -- a Limbsaver bumper on that cue, that I was able to quiet down the extended ping. Now, it's a very sweet ping, and the hit was unaffected.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
I agree with this, with a gentle leaning towards the shaft itself.

However, concerning the bumper, I have a special case that turned out very interesting in how I had to solve it. I have a cue that would ring like a tuning fork -- an extended "ping!" -- everytime I hit a ball. When I'd play with that cue, people would tell me the cue sounded like one of those el cheapie titanium cues. But I loved the hit of that cue, because it was resonant all the way to my grip hand (I prefer cues that "talk" to me).

It wasn't until I installed -- get this -- a Limbsaver bumper on that cue, that I was able to quiet down the extended ping. Now, it's a very sweet ping, and the hit was unaffected.

-Sean
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In the old Brunswick catalogs, bumpers were referred to as, "noise suppressors".
 
All cue's ping when you remove the tip. that will give you a starting point for maximum ping.now you can work with the .250 space between the cue and the ball to suit your needs.

bill
 
I have a cue that has 2 shafts. 1 has never made a ping sound, the other has always made a ping.
The ping shaft, now has a different ferrule and I can put any tip I choose on the cue and it still has the ping sound.
Even though I find the ping sound annoying, that shaft plays alot better than the shaft that does not ping.
There is nothing obvious about the shafts to make the assumption that 1 will ping and the other not.
They both weigh about the same amount, and have a similar weight distribution and tip scale weight.
I think it is the tone quality of the piece of wood itself.
Neil
 
mikeridethe9 said:
What in the construction of a cue gives it that hard "ping" sound when you hit with it? By ping I mean the sound a Southwest usually makes. Is it the pin? or is it the construction of the butt? or a combination of the two. I initially thought it was the brass big pin but I am not so sure, as I had an old Mc dermott with a 5/16x14 pin and its got that ping. this cue is a sold maple with some floating points. I assume the butt is a "3 piece" But not positive. I've used different tips over the years on it and the sound only changed slightly with different tips. The only thing I can figure is that this cue has a solid maple forearm. that's where the ping comes from??? I have a 2 titlist conversions with a radial pins,"no ping". a QP with a 3/8 10 aluminum "no ping"
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Hi,

Me personally, I like a soft or quiet hit over the high pitch resonance or ping. Full coring with seasoned straight maple dowels produces a very consistent frequency even with different wood choices. Because the dowel is 3/4" from stem to stern the tapered nose end has only a .042 wall on each side of the dowel.

A maple forearm sounds not too different than ebony for example because of the constant maple dowel. Each wood only adds a slightly different flavor to the hit. IMO the polyurethane expanding glue bond in the core annulus is a big equalizer and a huge factor why the hit of these cues ring so low freq. and are similar and consistent.

I try to stay away from a lot of different woods and stick with maple, ebony, cocobolo and other rosewoods, bacote, padauk, lacewood, yellow heart, tulipwood, purple heart with an occasional palm or bubinga
alway using straight grained maple handles under the wrap.

I know there are a lot of players that seek the ping or ring tone. I know I have selectively eliminated them as future customers but I think that is ok as I like to find customers or players that like stiff hitting cues with a quiet or soft hit.

After many years building a ton beta cues, field testing and experimenting with different construction methods before even considering the first sale to the public I made the choice and commitment. All of my beta cues where given away to over 40 players friends and employees for downstream field analysis in all aspects of evaluation, not just hit tone. The ones that were the quiet low tone stiff hitting cues scored the highest points in my study that took over 4 years.

Of corse there are many ways to the skin the cat, this is just one way. That's my story and formula and I am sticking with it and will go to my grave doing it this way.

JMO of corse,

Rick G

Here are the components and couple of progress pics of a typical cue built for a stealth sound in the pool room. Normally you would not use Big Leaf Red Maple Curly in the forearm but because of my solid maple dowel, I can and the construction fitness, tone and hit are wonderfully quiet.

IMG_4103.jpg

IMG_4269.jpg
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

Me personally, I like a soft or quiet hit over the high pitch resonance or ping. Full coring with seasoned straight maple dowels produces a very consistent frequency even with different wood choices. Because the dowel is 3/4" from stem to stern the tapered nose end has only a .042 wall on each side of the dowel.

A maple forearm sounds not too different than ebony for example because of the constant maple dowel. Each wood only adds a slightly different flavor to the hit. IMO the polyurethane expanding glue bond in the core annulus is a big equalizer and a huge factor why the hit of these cues ring so low freq. and are similar and consistent.

I try to stay away from a lot of different woods and stick with maple, ebony, cocobolo and other rosewoods, bacote, padauk, lacewood, yellow heart, tulipwood, purple heart with an occasional palm or bubinga
alway using straight grained maple handles under the wrap.

I know there are a lot of players that seek the ping or ring tone. I know I have selectively eliminated them as future customers but I think that is ok as I like to find customers or players that like stiff hitting cues with a quiet or soft hit.

After many years building a ton beta cues, field testing and experimenting with different construction methods before even considering the first sale to the public I made the choice and commitment. All of my beta cues where given away to over 40 players friends and employees for downstream field analysis in all aspects of evaluation, not just hit tone. The ones that were the quiet low tone stiff hitting cues scored the highest points in my study that took over 4 years.

Of corse there are many ways to the skin the cat, this is just one way. That's my story and formula and I am sticking with it and will go to my grave doing it this way.

JMO of corse,

Rick G

Here are the components and couple of progress pics of a typical cue built for a stealth sound in the pool room. Normally you would not use Big Leaf Red Maple Curly in the forearm but because of my solid maple dowel, I can and the construction fitness, tone and hit are wonderfully quiet.

IMG_4103.jpg

IMG_4269.jpg

IMG_4272.jpg

Using softer woods like Big Leaf Curly and Padauk with only a slight difference in tone or frequency resonance difference from the harder woods.
IMG_4274.jpg

Very simple cue designed for a player who wanted the Esoteric Hit in a simple old school minimalist design he brought to my shop.
IMG_4391.jpg
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Beautiful simple and classic cue Rick! I didn't know the hit you work to achieve was a quiet or soft sounding one. Glad to hear it. That's exactly what I look for. I've collected a couple Ernie Martinez cues for the same reason. I really like an energy efficient cue with a mostly stiff but somewhat lively hit and soft, mellow clean sound with feedback to my grip hand. I just can't get into the breaking glass level of sound you get with some cues.

With that said...do you know if anyone has recorded the range of sounds cues or more importantly cue shafts can make and the materials used? If there's something out there and you know of it or anyone does I'd love to know about it. It would be great to have a resource to show what a ping sounds like and what a quiet cue sounds like with the range of sounds in between. It would also be cool if there were some odd sounds that shafts make or sounds that are very specific to certain cue makers work pointed out.

Kevin
 
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pooln8r said:
Beautiful simple and classic cue Rick! I didn't know the hit you work to achieve was a quiet or soft sounding one. Glad to hear it. That's exactly what I look for. I've collected a couple Ernie Martinez cues for the same reason. I really like an energy efficient cue with a mostly stiff but somewhat lively hit and soft, mellow clean sound with feedback to my grip hand. I just can't get into the breaking glass level of sound you get with some cues.

With that said...do you know if anyone has recorded the range of sounds cues or more importantly cue shafts can make and the materials used? If there's something out there and you know of it or anyone does I'd love to know about it. It would be great to have a resource to show what a ping sounds like and what a quiet cue sounds like with the range of sounds in between. It would also be cool if there were some odd sounds that shafts make or sounds that are very specific to certain cue makers work pointed out.

Kevin
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Hi Kev,

My very good friend of 30 years and great Straight Pool and One Pocket Player Wendell Weir was my coach on that one. After retiring from a career as a road player he worked for my company for 20 years and we were on the road 6 months a year on out of town diving jobs where he revealed to me most all of his experience in big time pool playing and gambling.

His insight on how a cue should play and his feed back on all of the cues I was building was the all I listened to as I trust his opinion as a true pool genius.

In the day after being a loner road player for over 15 years Wendell landed in Chicago and settled down to raise a family late in life. Within one year of him arriving here he was known as the best player in the City except for Bugs in bank pool, which Wendell admits was the better man at that game. Bugs was a truly an amazing banker.

Wendell has a very simple measured short stroke and could run 100s of ball on any given day and he used to bet accomplished straight pool talent that he could beat them in 100 ball no count on his part. I have seen him get to 91 balls in such a game and play safe because he did not like the shots available to him at that moment. How cool is that. While his skilled opponents could take their aggregate score to beat him and he had to start at 0 until he ran 100. The problem they soon figured out was they had to come to the table cold behind one of his snooker behind one ball moves to put them in jail, "solitary confinement". He won many of those matches with the opponent at a very low score and sometimes at a negative number because he was the king of making someone back scratch.

So that is where my inspiration came for the hit of my cue with my good friend and mentor Wendell as my R&D sounding post. Today Wendell plays with a solid maple cue on a maple core I built for him.

I love the feed back as you described with The Martinez Cues. Thanks for sharing that info about Martinez Cues and your insight.

Rick
 
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There is a player named Alvin from the Maryland area I believe that has a Phillippi cue with that distinct ping sound. I have always liked the sound and one day hope to find a cue that has that sound. I tried to buy Alvin's cue at the Super Billiards Expo a few years back but he was not interested in selling it as it hit so good for him.

Kevin
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi Kev,

My very good friend of 30 years and great Straight Pool and One Pocket Player Wendell Weir was my coach on that one. After retiring from a career as a road player he worked for my company for 20 years and we were on the road 6 months a year on out of town diving jobs where he revealed to me most all of the experience in big time pool playing and gambling.

His insight on how a cue should play and his feed back on all of the cues I was building was the all I listened to as I trust his opinion as a true pool genius.

In the day after being a loner road play for over 15 years Wendell landed in Chicago and settled down to raise a family late in life. Within one year of him arriving here he was know as the best player in the City except for Bugs in bank pool which Wendell admits was the better man at that game. Bugs was a truly an amazing banker.

Wendell has a very simple measured short stroke and could run 100s of ball on any given day and he used to bet accomplished straight pool talent that he could beat them in 100 ball no count on his part. I have seen him get to 91 balls in such a game and play safe because he did not like the shots available to him at that moment. How cool is that. While his skilled opponents could take their aggregate score to bet him and he had to start at 0 until he ran 100. The problem they soon figured out was they had to come to the table behind one of his snooker behind one ball moves to put them in jail, solitary confinement. He won many of those matches with the opponent at a very low score and sometimes at a negative number because he was the king of making someone back scratch.

So that is were my inspiration came for the hit of my cue with my good friend and mentor Wendell as my R&D sounding post. Today Wendell plays with a solid maple cue on a maple core I built for him.

I love the feed back as you described with The Martinez Cues. Thanks for sharing that info about Martinez Cues and the your insight.

Rick
Click to expand...

Cool story Rick. Hell of a guy to be your cue's R&D test pilot. I heard stories about him when I first started playing in Brooklyn NY back, oh not too long ago in 1990. We had a few road players based here that liked to share their stories and Mr. Weir's name would eventually come up whenever someone would mention 100 no count straight games. I wish I got to see one of those matches. It definitely would have been better than being in one..lol Having the skill and composure to stop when you know it's not to your advantage with 100 or no count being the spot is STRONG!!!! I wish more people appreciated straight pool to really get how crazy what you just put in writing really is. The hall in which I heard these stories no longer exists and the players have moved on to new places, who knows where, but I won't forget the stories. Priceless stories of guys putting it on the line thinking they could best a guy at what seemed like a crazy spot to them but then finding out exactly what you said that Mr. Weir's game was a complete one that had them pinned down to a few balls a match. Great stuff!

Kevin
 
Kevin,

I forgot to mention that Wendell played with a 15 mm shaft and tip and was a vertical center ball freak. When he needed to juice it up he was not too far off center and got amazing results. He milked the cow with his stroke hand every time and did so even on the most delicate soft shots.

He was also a very capable 3C player and could beat players way above his own level and experience by playing safety leaves whereby they had to use a bridge to try to make high percentage shots. Us Billiards guys hate using bridges. This would frustrate them and most of the time they did not realize. What he was doing and they thought they were just getting bad breaks. He literally wears people down like a Chinese Water torture.

Wendell is a real thinker and is very funny guy to run with because of his eclectic thinking. He has the ability to focus and bear down like a Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods. Wendell always won the money, it was his job.

When all those road players got arrested by the feds in Johnson City, they let Wendell go because he had a record book of all his road expenses and games played. He always filed a tax return as a professional pool player. They held him for a while, then because of this ultimate safety play, the feds had to cut him lose, no charges, no court, no nothing.

Rick
 
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