Title, Artist and Album are correct - so close on the year - actually released Nov 30 1979. 
Speculation Only - THE MOVE ??????????
- Thread starter MikeJanis
- Start date
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onepocketchump
Guest
Blackjack said:Mike Janis inadvertantly hits the nail on the head! C'mon, Mike... you know better than to even ask that question. You know as well as I do what the answer is. Guaranteed money, savers, you don't really think anybody would actually do that in the IPT, do you?
Or that anyone would do it at the UPA events or the US Open? At LEAST the IPT addressed this subject OPENLY in the rules.
John
I think that for this tournament only, Mike's idea would be costless for the hypothetical dumper, K. But when I read the rules (a while back) it looked like the GLI was a running average throughout the year so that K losing 0-8 to G in Tournament 1 could cost K money in Tournaments 2, 3, ... So I think that K would be unlikely to agree to this deal early in the tour year.
If the GLIs are re-set to zero at the start of every year then every end-of-year tournament will be susceptible to manipulation like this.
Players with very high GLI's late in the season, who would lose tie-breakers anyway, might also be susceptible to being bought-out. On the other hand, they probably have high GLIs for a reason (they lose a lot), so it would be hard to say whether they were throwing or just not playing well.
If you have or can borrow Freakonomics, those concerned over throwing in a tournament might find the chapter on Sumo wrestling interesting.
Cory
If the GLIs are re-set to zero at the start of every year then every end-of-year tournament will be susceptible to manipulation like this.
Players with very high GLI's late in the season, who would lose tie-breakers anyway, might also be susceptible to being bought-out. On the other hand, they probably have high GLIs for a reason (they lose a lot), so it would be hard to say whether they were throwing or just not playing well.
If you have or can borrow Freakonomics, those concerned over throwing in a tournament might find the chapter on Sumo wrestling interesting.
Cory
onepocketchump said:
John
Why is it that whenever you post a response to me you feel the need to bring up the UPA? Just wondering why you are always doing that.
I couldn't care less what the IPT addressed in their rules. They can't and won't stop this from happening. These deals are made in private, and when players receive their money they can do whatever they want with it.
Blackjack said:
It would be sad to think that a professional would jeopardize personal standings and stats. If this stuff does happen, I'm sure one day someone will be pissed at someone else and blow them in. In which case they can probably kiss IPT or any like tour away.
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onepocketchump
Guest
Blackjack said:
Well David, it really was only because the UPA is the existing pro organization for the men. But since you brought it up, it's mostly because your tone seemed to me to say, "see I told ya' so, the IPT sucks".
The IPT has taken this sport to a new level even if they never do another event. The reason: because this event shows what is possible. It treats our stars with the level of respect that they deserve and asks them to act accordingly. Your tone seemed to say that the IPT people are naive to the intricacies of the pool world as it exists now.
I, for one, would like to see you applauding your fellow players for the steps they are taking, applaud Kevin for the investment he has made and for how he has treated the players. He has been up front with them and outlined exactly what is expected of them.
It states in the rules what will happen if the players are caught dumping to one another. So, like Watchez said, you can teach them draw a ball but you can't stop them from being unethical. I say let the ones do it who are going to and let the IPT worry about it. We are going to get some top notch pool either way because of the sheer amount of matches.
For all you know Kevin might institute a TV bonus for those matches that get featured because of outstanding play. So the pros that engage in dumping will only harm themselves by being out of that money.
I believe that ANYTHING is possible with this tour.
John
onepocketchump said:
John
When Mr. Trudeau steps off his pedestal and decides to become a part of the international billiards sports community, then I will applaud him. He needs to realize that pool is in dire straits in North America, but it is widely popular in other parts of the world. In Asia, pool has sustained popularity as opposed to fad-ish popularity in North America. "Billiards" has several disciplines, not just 8 ball, or pocket billiards. There is also 3 cushion and Snooker. KT's comments about the international bodies (WPA, WCBS) is that they have not done anything because pool players are poor. Yet when he comes along with the financial means necessary to make a great impact, he insults the WPA and World Confederation of Billiard Sports (WCBS) and basically says that they don't exist, or their existence isn't necessary now that he has shown up on the scene. The WCBS oversees the world organizations for all 3 disciplines. He has the opportunity to make a positive impact throughout the billards world, yet he chooses not to. I have yet to hear and honest reason why he has been unwilling to meet with the WPA to discuss the disagreements that he has with the sanctioning. That is the basis for my opposition of this tour. I have publicly stated that there are internal problems that need to be addressed, worked out and solved. You can throw money at any problem, it doesn't mean its going to fix anything. In some cases the money can make the problems worse. This is one of those cases. Will this practice be stopped just because they have a rule against it? No. I know you don't need that explained to you. We've both seen it happen and its going to happen at these events as well - guaranteed.
How much of the money that the players will be receiving in prize money will go back directly into the sport? Probably none. The money he would pay in sanctioning is exactly what every other promoter has paid. His sanctioning fee was commensurate with the prize fund he was offering. The WPA is a non profit organization and all the money would have directly gone back to the sport. If you or Deno or KT have any evidence to the contrary, then please provide it.
The IPT has the potential to make a great impact if they decide to work together with the international community. The decision has been made to ignore their existence with no real reason given. It doesn't matter if the sanctioning fee goes to the WPA or to the players - it all goes back to the sport.
Many people have said hat KT can do what he wants with his money and he doesn't have to pay fees to anyone if he doesn't want to (he's his own boss). That's great. All the other organizations are saying is that they reserve the right to enforce bans that restrict their players from playing in IPT events to preserve their tours, and to move forward with the guidelines set forth with the WCBS and its organizations. Trudeau has chosen not to pay WPA sanctioning, and with every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. The door is still open if Mr. Trudeau should ever wish to reconsider. The WPA and WCBS are more than willing to work out an agreement with him. Whenever this is brought up people accuse the WPA of just wanting some of Trudeau's money. Well isn't that why all of those players are in Orlando? They want some of Trudeau's money. The WPA can assist in making the IPT a truly international, global tour. KT could improve the profitability of the IPT by expanding it into the international market. For $150K and event? Sounds to me like a pretty good investment.
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Blackjack, what do you think is going to happen with all of this? Do you think this is all bad for pool and the pool players? You are friends with many pro players, but almost all of them disagree with you on this. I have alot of respect for you, and I am just interested in what you think is going to happen.
saying that cheating is possible is a moot point.
Cheating is always possible..... But to say that if it happens it will be the end of the IPT is like saying that point shaving would end the NBA, NFL, or the MAjor leagues. That's a desperate plea to try and bring discredit to a new organization who doesn't want the sanctioning of a body that it doesn't recognise as being needed.
Sanctioning bodies in other sports wield a whole lot more power and control over their sport than the disjointed bodies that make up the pool community, so I don't know if he really needs them either. I do know that he is a much better marketer than I am, and I don't see what these sanctioning bodies are offering him? I doubt I would want to pay them just because either, if I was in his shoes.
Cheating is always possible..... But to say that if it happens it will be the end of the IPT is like saying that point shaving would end the NBA, NFL, or the MAjor leagues. That's a desperate plea to try and bring discredit to a new organization who doesn't want the sanctioning of a body that it doesn't recognise as being needed.
Sanctioning bodies in other sports wield a whole lot more power and control over their sport than the disjointed bodies that make up the pool community, so I don't know if he really needs them either. I do know that he is a much better marketer than I am, and I don't see what these sanctioning bodies are offering him? I doubt I would want to pay them just because either, if I was in his shoes.
O
onepocketchump
Guest
Here is what I think David, sometimes in order to move forward you have to totally break free from the old paradigm.
Mike Sigel quit professional pool under the direction of the PBT/WPA/BCA. His reason for quitting were the same reasons that have caused pro players to live life on the edge of financial solvency and the edge of moral and ethical issues.
What sense does it make to pay money into a system that does not work and has not worked for the last 20 years. Has the WPA done good things? Yes, I fully agree that they did. But I would liken it to building a slightly better playground in a too small park.
This man is seeking to expand the awareness of professional pool beyond anything that has been seen in this country and in the world. Do you think Oliver Ortmann or Ralf Souquet enjoy celebrity in Germany? Not really outside the pool community.
Taiwan is living proof that when pool is put in front of the masses constantly live, with fresh uncut content that it can make stars out of players. Did the WPA have anything to do with that? Not that I know of? The WPA may get some money from it but they did nothing to produce or promote the shows.
You know what, I am talking to a proverbial brick wall here. I don't care. I have been a player for 25 years and inside this industry for 15. I know the players appreciate it, I know they deserve it. I for one am deeply touched to see the people who have dedicated their lives to an endeavor where it is a grind at best finally get treated as they deserve to be treated.
If you want to continue to have sour grapes about the opportunity for your fellow professionals then I suppose that is your personal issue. Everyone has to have something to make them get up in the morning.
Peace.
John
Mike Sigel quit professional pool under the direction of the PBT/WPA/BCA. His reason for quitting were the same reasons that have caused pro players to live life on the edge of financial solvency and the edge of moral and ethical issues.
What sense does it make to pay money into a system that does not work and has not worked for the last 20 years. Has the WPA done good things? Yes, I fully agree that they did. But I would liken it to building a slightly better playground in a too small park.
This man is seeking to expand the awareness of professional pool beyond anything that has been seen in this country and in the world. Do you think Oliver Ortmann or Ralf Souquet enjoy celebrity in Germany? Not really outside the pool community.
Taiwan is living proof that when pool is put in front of the masses constantly live, with fresh uncut content that it can make stars out of players. Did the WPA have anything to do with that? Not that I know of? The WPA may get some money from it but they did nothing to produce or promote the shows.
You know what, I am talking to a proverbial brick wall here. I don't care. I have been a player for 25 years and inside this industry for 15. I know the players appreciate it, I know they deserve it. I for one am deeply touched to see the people who have dedicated their lives to an endeavor where it is a grind at best finally get treated as they deserve to be treated.
If you want to continue to have sour grapes about the opportunity for your fellow professionals then I suppose that is your personal issue. Everyone has to have something to make them get up in the morning.
Peace.
John
Blackjack said:
Dave,
I've read your previous posts and have been impressed with your knowledge of the billiard industry, players and organizations.
This last post has me puzzled.
Why would the World orgs be interested in an upstart self centered promoter like KT? Why would they want to be associated with this tour? Do the world orgs sanction any event for 10%? just any event? Seems like the world orgs have little or no criteria, "just give us 10% and your sanctioned and we will allow our players to play"
KT's tour hasn't even proven itself yet.
The world orgs don't do all that much sanctioning and promoting in the USA or North America.
I would like 3 good reasons why Pro pool players in the USA would want to become members of the world orgs.
Sorry if this sounds rough, but the world orgs sound like they are anti USA and pro world.
John - You keep saying I have sour grapes. What do I have sour grapes about? This puzzles me just as much as the UPA references that you always tag on when you communicate with me about this subject. If you go back and do a search you will see that I spoke out against several decisions that the UPA made over the years. You keep trying to paint me as a sour person that stays up at nights worrying about Kevin Trudeau and the IPT while hiding behind the banner of the UPA. If you would have picked up the phone and talked to me about this, you would come away with a different opinion of my stance. Are you aware that I work with many of the IPT players?
Last Two - I don't wish anybody bad luck at all. I think if Kevin Trudeau surrounds himself with business savvy people that understand that the best interests of pool must come before NaturalCures (if he plans on being successful with this) then I think he has a pretty good shot at keeping this tour alive in The United States. Abroad is a different story. Several countries around the world (excluding the US) have been working diligently towards IOC recognition. The groundwork has been done, and all 3 disciplines have been working together to make this a reality. I do not believe that Kevin Trudeau is aware of the work that has been done. Mike Sigel doesn't know anything about it either. This is why he is being led in the wrong direction internationally. The US lags far behind Europe, Asia, & Australia when it comes to organizing Billiards (when I say billiards, I mean all 3 disciplines, 3 cushion, Snooker, Pool). Many of Kevin's decisions are being made with ignorance to the facts. He as surrounded himself with people that have even less knowledge about the WPA and the WCBS than he has. The WPA will always leave the door open, but if the IPT refuses to be sanctioned, points will not be earned (we know this song already). Its a workable situation and I believe it can be solved over lunch. These arent big problems, just big egos. What will happen? I'm not a fortune teller or a misfortune teller, but it all depends on who Trudeau surrounds himself with when he is making decisions about this tour. What happens with the IPT depends on whether the fans support the tour (buy KT's book, dvd's,etc) and whether or not he can effectively market this tour in the media and generate advertising revenue with high TV ratings. He has already shown that he is willing to offer something unlike anything we have ever seen before... but...
besides higher prize money, what else are the players going to get from this?
Tom - I don't speak on behalf of the WPA. Here is a link to Ian Anderson's statement from this past August regarding the IPT and Kevin Trudeau. If you read this statement in its entirety, Ian does an excellent job of explaining the WPA's stance on the IPT.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=localnews&newsid=42
Quite simply, there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding the WPA, and the WCBS. Many pro players in the U.S. & Canada are unaware of what the WCBS is (many thought it was a TV station in NYC). The WCBS was formed to unite all the disciplines under one world body. This was done to earn IOC recognition. We have failed to become an Olympic event because they have not added any new games. We are very close. The 2008 Beijing Olympic Games will not be adding any new games or sports. This means that we must try to get in for the 2012 Games. The Olympic charter stipulates though, that an application must be filed 7 years ahead of the particular games in which a new sport would like to appear. It is also important to note that the WCBS had already achieved a provisional recognition from the IOC, but the decisions was made not to add any new sports to the Athens Games in 2004. If we begin today, get recognition and we are added to the 2012 games as a provisional sport, we are still looking at 2016 before we can say that billiards is an Olympic Discipline. KT can help out immensely if he was willing to.
The WCBS has worked hard to get all disciplines into the World Games in Akita back in 2001. Jeanette Lee and Vivian Villareal represented our country at these games. This was such an exciting accomplishment for billiards, yet many people can't tell you who participated in those games, or who won the gold. The WPA and WCBS have left the door open to Trudeau because if he is serious about helping the sport and providing financially sucessful tour with excellent payouts, his santioning fees would be able to assist the sport by hiring coaches and providing national training centers throughout the world. It would be money that would go directly back into the sport and to the players - in the form of equipment, coaching, national recognition and exposure. Nobody in either of these organizations has said anything that would insult Kevin Trudeau or his tour. They welcomed him and recognized his planned tour and he declined to pay the sanctioning fees. He has gone on the record as saying that these organzation have done nothing at all. That leads me to believe that he is talking to people that don't know any more than he does.
Here is a link to the WCBS site
http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/
Go to the history, and you will see that a lot of work has been done outside the US. As I said earlier in this thread, Asia is seeing sustained popularity of Pool, Snooker, & 3 Cushion. There are places in this world where they actually take this seriously and they are actively trying to push billiards in a direction away from the sterotypical views that our game has in North America.
Last Two - I don't wish anybody bad luck at all. I think if Kevin Trudeau surrounds himself with business savvy people that understand that the best interests of pool must come before NaturalCures (if he plans on being successful with this) then I think he has a pretty good shot at keeping this tour alive in The United States. Abroad is a different story. Several countries around the world (excluding the US) have been working diligently towards IOC recognition. The groundwork has been done, and all 3 disciplines have been working together to make this a reality. I do not believe that Kevin Trudeau is aware of the work that has been done. Mike Sigel doesn't know anything about it either. This is why he is being led in the wrong direction internationally. The US lags far behind Europe, Asia, & Australia when it comes to organizing Billiards (when I say billiards, I mean all 3 disciplines, 3 cushion, Snooker, Pool). Many of Kevin's decisions are being made with ignorance to the facts. He as surrounded himself with people that have even less knowledge about the WPA and the WCBS than he has. The WPA will always leave the door open, but if the IPT refuses to be sanctioned, points will not be earned (we know this song already). Its a workable situation and I believe it can be solved over lunch. These arent big problems, just big egos. What will happen? I'm not a fortune teller or a misfortune teller, but it all depends on who Trudeau surrounds himself with when he is making decisions about this tour. What happens with the IPT depends on whether the fans support the tour (buy KT's book, dvd's,etc) and whether or not he can effectively market this tour in the media and generate advertising revenue with high TV ratings. He has already shown that he is willing to offer something unlike anything we have ever seen before... but...
besides higher prize money, what else are the players going to get from this?
Tom - I don't speak on behalf of the WPA. Here is a link to Ian Anderson's statement from this past August regarding the IPT and Kevin Trudeau. If you read this statement in its entirety, Ian does an excellent job of explaining the WPA's stance on the IPT.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=localnews&newsid=42
Quite simply, there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding the WPA, and the WCBS. Many pro players in the U.S. & Canada are unaware of what the WCBS is (many thought it was a TV station in NYC). The WCBS was formed to unite all the disciplines under one world body. This was done to earn IOC recognition. We have failed to become an Olympic event because they have not added any new games. We are very close. The 2008 Beijing Olympic Games will not be adding any new games or sports. This means that we must try to get in for the 2012 Games. The Olympic charter stipulates though, that an application must be filed 7 years ahead of the particular games in which a new sport would like to appear. It is also important to note that the WCBS had already achieved a provisional recognition from the IOC, but the decisions was made not to add any new sports to the Athens Games in 2004. If we begin today, get recognition and we are added to the 2012 games as a provisional sport, we are still looking at 2016 before we can say that billiards is an Olympic Discipline. KT can help out immensely if he was willing to.
The WCBS has worked hard to get all disciplines into the World Games in Akita back in 2001. Jeanette Lee and Vivian Villareal represented our country at these games. This was such an exciting accomplishment for billiards, yet many people can't tell you who participated in those games, or who won the gold. The WPA and WCBS have left the door open to Trudeau because if he is serious about helping the sport and providing financially sucessful tour with excellent payouts, his santioning fees would be able to assist the sport by hiring coaches and providing national training centers throughout the world. It would be money that would go directly back into the sport and to the players - in the form of equipment, coaching, national recognition and exposure. Nobody in either of these organizations has said anything that would insult Kevin Trudeau or his tour. They welcomed him and recognized his planned tour and he declined to pay the sanctioning fees. He has gone on the record as saying that these organzation have done nothing at all. That leads me to believe that he is talking to people that don't know any more than he does.
Here is a link to the WCBS site
http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/
Go to the history, and you will see that a lot of work has been done outside the US. As I said earlier in this thread, Asia is seeing sustained popularity of Pool, Snooker, & 3 Cushion. There are places in this world where they actually take this seriously and they are actively trying to push billiards in a direction away from the sterotypical views that our game has in North America.
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onepocketchump
Guest
What will happen will happen despite anything we do or say here. Kudos to KT for a fine tournament and for treating the pros as professionals.
John
John
Quote Dave "Tom - I don't speak on behalf of the WPA. Here is a link to Ian Anderson's statement from this past August regarding the IPT and Kevin Trudeau. If you read this statement in its entirety, Ian does an excellent job of explaining the WPA's stance on the IPT."
Dave, thanks for the link, it was a long and informative read.
I have to admit, what I found out about the WPA left me wondering. I felt like I was reading a proclamation from the BCA website. Self proclaimed governing body of the POOL World.
When Ian said it was FREE to the ITP but only cost 10% from the Added Money... what the hell does that mean? Is he really that stupid?
Then I read that John (ACS) Lewis and Steve D (BCA director) are members of this world org. I can't buy into the propaganda that Ian spells out. His remarks about the IPT won't win him any friends in the USA. I know I won't be willing to support any world org that first asks for 10% and ONLY offers to divy up the money with themselves and other tournaments.
In the old days this was called extorsion. "Do it our way or not at all."
Dave, thanks for the link, it was a long and informative read.
I have to admit, what I found out about the WPA left me wondering. I felt like I was reading a proclamation from the BCA website. Self proclaimed governing body of the POOL World.
When Ian said it was FREE to the ITP but only cost 10% from the Added Money... what the hell does that mean? Is he really that stupid?
Then I read that John (ACS) Lewis and Steve D (BCA director) are members of this world org. I can't buy into the propaganda that Ian spells out. His remarks about the IPT won't win him any friends in the USA. I know I won't be willing to support any world org that first asks for 10% and ONLY offers to divy up the money with themselves and other tournaments.
In the old days this was called extorsion. "Do it our way or not at all."
Tom In Cincy said:
Trudeau had nothing to lose and everything to gain with WPA sanctioning. The money goes back into the sport. Ian states in his letter that the sanctioning fee would come out of the added monies. The problem here is that you have a one man show. KT would be providing the added monies because he is sponsoring his own tour. He wants to promote the IPT and NaturalCures. If he had additional sponsorship for the IPT, this would not be a problem at all. You can try to twist that any way you'd like, but the IPT sees themselves as "their own authority" and they refuse and scoff at WPA sanctioning guidelines. I take that as "we have enough money to take care of ourselves, piss off." That is what happened. Kevin's ship is in the water right now, and I wish him a safe trip. Pool in the United States has continuously shot themselves in the foot time and time again. This will be no different.
You seem intrigued that Steve and John are part of the WPA. Steve Ducoff is also on the board of the WCBS as well. He is also the Executive Director of the BCA. Why is it surprising to you that he is part of the WPA? The pro tour separated itself from the BCA in 1988. Since then there has been nothing but problems. The BCA has also had problems, but their mission and vision has never changed. Is the IPT a BCA Member? Are they planning on using their wealth to assist in the Billiard Education Program or other programs that are designed to promote the game of pool? Does he have a plan to promote or assist in the advancement of artistic and wheelchair billiard programs? Maybe tomorrow I will call Amy Long and find out and get back with you. Contributing monetarily to those programs would be a step in the right direction for the IPT.
The IPT was not asked to pay anymore than any other event. His purses are higher, so sanctioning fees are directly proprtional to his prize funds. To have sanctioning, you must follow sanctioning guidelines. KT has said he has no interest in that, and shot back and cried extortion. Whatever. The popularity of pool in North America currently reflects the consequences of that type of thinking. BTW, Ian Anderson is far from stupid. Why resort to challenging the intentions of the WPA? As I said earlier, they are nonprofit - what comes in, goes right back out - nobody is trying to get rich off of Trudeau (except maybe the players.) That is not propoganda, its the truth. I tried to give you an honest, informative response to your question. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask, or give me a call at 386-208-0011.
Blackjack said:
Propaganda is what is needed to get your point, vision, idea, thoughts across to the audience. It is not a bad word, it just has some bad conotations.
Dave, you seem to be very passionate about this subject and are not willing to do anything but rebute or refute.
Too much negativity for me to continue.
icon
Banned
Blackjack said:
unless you are with that organization you dont know exactly where the money goes!
why dont you stop the diatribes and let them have a chance to show what they are going to do. i think the sanctioning money would be better off spent for the ipt than given to a foreign sanctioning body for them to do with as they see fit anywhere in the world. or is their accounting of the money that will show it is spent on the sport where it would benefit the ipt?
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