Speed, Scale and Skill Levels

justadub

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Someone in another thread asked a question about comparing an APA SL5 to the alphabetical speed rating that is so often used outside of league play. Rather than derail that thread asking for explanations, I thought to start a new one, one that could go off the rails all on it's own! ;)

I've only played APA, since it's the only game in town, and I live quite far off the beaten path. Without a multiple hour drive, I just can't go to watch (or participate) in a "regular" style tournament where the alphabetical rating would be used.

Can you folks give me some perspective on how to compare the various skill levels of players? I do remember seeing something along these lines in the middle of a different thread, but as I recall it wasn't the thrust of that thread, nor complete. (Perhaps my memory fails, and if so, I apologize.)

Yes, I realize not all APA 7's are the same level of player, depending on the area they play in . But "on average" how does the various Skill Levels for all the leagues compare to each other, and to the alphabetical ranking used outside of league play? Please be reasonable about this, I know many feel APA players are the bottom of the barrel. We're easy targets, and I can handle that. I'm simply curious how I stand versus everybody else, and where I'll be as I progress. And how to compare the better players in my area to the rest of you folks. When I read different discussions here and someone declares themselves a "B" player, or a "lower A player", it would be good for perspective sake.

Thanks folks.
 
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Whether it be APA 8-ball or 9-ball, here's my honest opinion...

SL-3 or below: D+ Player or below
SL-4: D+ to C- Player
SL-5: C- to C+ Player
SL-6: C+ Player
SL-7 or above: C+ Player to Pro

As you can see, the SL-7 or above category will have the largest skill range of players. I'm pretty confident that any SL-6 or below APA player will not be better than a C+ player. I'm also pretty confident that any B player or above will be at least an SL-7.

I believe that most of the population will fall below SL-6 and generally be in the SL-3 to SL-5 range. These are your average league players.

Feel free to give your own opinions.
 
Thanks, and you make a good point... I was only thinking 8-ball when I posted, since that's what I play mostly. But I am curious about 9-ball as well, if that makes any difference to anyone else in their opinions.

Comparisons to the levels of other leagues are welcome, as well.

Thanks again.
 
Samiel said:
Whether it be APA 8-ball or 9-ball, here's my honest opinion...

SL-3 or below: D+ Player or below
SL-4: D+ to C- Player
SL-5: C- to C+ Player
SL-6: C+ Player
SL-7 or above: C+ Player to Pro

As you can see, the SL-7 or above category will have the largest skill range of players. I'm pretty confident that any SL-6 or below APA player will not be better than a C+ player. I'm also pretty confident that any B player or above will be at least an SL-7.

I believe that most of the population will fall below SL-6 and generally be in the SL-3 to SL-5 range. These are your average league players.

Feel free to give your own opinions.
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lol i loved your explanation as how a sl-7 can be a C+ to a Pro lol....it really is true:wink::thumbup:
 
Samiel said:
Whether it be APA 8-ball or 9-ball, here's my honest opinion...

SL-3 or below: D+ Player or below
SL-4: D+ to C- Player
SL-5: C- to C+ Player
SL-6: C+ Player
SL-7 or above: C+ Player to Pro

As you can see, the SL-7 or above category will have the largest skill range of players. I'm pretty confident that any SL-6 or below APA player will not be better than a C+ player. I'm also pretty confident that any B player or above will be at least an SL-7.

I believe that most of the population will fall below SL-6 and generally be in the SL-3 to SL-5 range. These are your average league players.

Feel free to give your own opinions.
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I'll second this motion, but want to re-emphasize, that the "SL-7or above: C+Player to Pro" gap is huge, when compared to the lower SL's.

Good post Samiel
 
Neil said:
Trying to mentally combine this with other ways that have been posted in the past, I would change only one thing. I would make the SL-7's a B- up to a pro. Not much change, but I think they are better than a C+.
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good point neil especially if you take the apa 9 ball into account since they go up to 9 and average in those sl 8&9's
 
Neil said:
Trying to mentally combine this with other ways that have been posted in the past, I would change only one thing. I would make the SL-7's a B- up to a pro. Not much change, but I think they are better than a C+.
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You may be right. I've always had trouble distinguishing between C+ and B- players! :p
 
I know an SL7 in NYC who competes regularly and successfully in money tournaments, but he also has a good job and makes a decent living and would rather do that than try to make it as a pro. His APA win percentage is something like 84%.
 
Not to belabor the point, but you folks generally agree that the average APA SL7 would usually be around a C+ to a B-, in most cases?

Just trying to get a sense of what the better players that I see are the equivalent of. Or at least likely to be similar to... I realize these are huge generalizations.
 
justadub said:
Not to belabor the point, but you folks generally agree that the average APA SL7 would usually be around a C+ to a B-, in most cases?

Just trying to get a sense of what the better players that I see are the equivalent of. Or at least likely to be similar to... I realize these are huge generalizations.
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Yes, I believe your average APA SL7 will be a C+ to B- player. The higher the skill level above that, the smaller the pool will be I'm sure.
 
In 9-ball:

SL 5 - generally C players, occasionally will run 6-7 balls and may get lucky once a session or year and B&R depending on tables played on. But generally on average I think they run about the number of balls that their skill level number has them at... 5
SL 6 - C+ players but have flashes of B- and sometimes B ability. They can get out with a wide open table. Despite that, they don't B&R a lot. Generally 6-7 ball run average with the occasional run out.
SL 7 - B- players, they can string racks together on a good day. They will also generally get out if the rack is open.
SL 8 - B to B+ players that have flashes of A brilliance. I think at this point, people begin to make the game look a lot easier. Capable of stringing multiple racks together on a good day.
SL 9 - A players imo. They can string 3-4 racks together on a good day maybe more. I know one that beat a SL 3 75-4 in 6 innings.

The jump from 6 to a 7 is the biggest imo. Because that's where the player is realizing that they can break and run. That's where the mental block gets destroyed and imo that SL is the hardest to move up to. I know a 4 who use to be a 6. When he got to be a 6, he just fell apart.

Some handle the pressure better than others. But the main difference is that 7's can string racks together and that's a major jump in the mental game.
 
paksat said:
In 9-ball:

SL 5 - generally C players, occasionally will run 6-7 balls and may get lucky once a session or year and B&R depending on tables played on. But generally on average I think they run about the number of balls that their skill level number has them at... 5
SL 6 - C+ players but have flashes of B- and sometimes B ability. They can get out with a wide open table. Despite that, they don't B&R a lot. Generally 6-7 ball run average with the occasional run out.
SL 7 - B- players, they can string racks together on a good day. They will also generally get out if the rack is open.
SL 8 - B to B+ players that have flashes of A brilliance. I think at this point, people begin to make the game look a lot easier. Capable of stringing multiple racks together on a good day.
SL 9 - A players imo. They can string 3-4 racks together on a good day maybe more. I know one that beat a SL 3 75-4 in 6 innings.

The jump from 6 to a 7 is the biggest imo. Because that's where the player is realizing that they can break and run. That's where the mental block gets destroyed and imo that SL is the hardest to move up to. I know a 4 who use to be a 6. When he got to be a 6, he just fell apart.

Some handle the pressure better than others. But the main difference is that 7's can string racks together and that's a major jump in the mental game.
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I think you are being a bit generous with your evaluation. The very best APA players on average wouldn't be close to A level. There are a few that are, but they are the exception.
Not trying to be petty, and not knocking league players (I have been one for years), but there are players you never see in leagues that would give huge weight to most APA 7s and not bat an eye.
Think about the players on the regional tours. The ones who regularly finish in the money are head and shoulders above most high ranked league players...and most of them would strugle to win a pro event, although they might finish fairly well.
If the APA is your primary reference to evaluate skill levels, you are missing a huge number of players who are way beyond what you see on Tuesday night.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
If the APA is your primary reference to evaluate skill levels, you are missing a huge number of players who are way beyond what you see on Tuesday night.

Steve
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Which is precisely why I asked the original question! :D

All I'm looking for is a point of reference, and so far most have been similar in their estimations. Anyone else who has the perspective, please chime in.

Thanks.
 
I hear what you are saying. My point was more along the lines that the top level APA players, be it 7 in eight ball or 9 in nine ball, is still not, on average, going to be an A player. I'm not saying there aren't A players in the APA, just that they are the exception, not the rule.

Steve
 
paksat said:
In 9-ball:

SL 9 - A players imo. They can string 3-4 racks together on a good day maybe more. I know one that beat a SL 3 75-4 in 6 innings.
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You are dead wrong here bro. GirlEight1 is an SL9 and she would be lucky to run a rack in 10 tries all day long.

I have known other SL9s and they could never string 3-4 racks together.

You are being way to generous.
 
paksat said:
In 9-ball:

SL 5 - generally C players, occasionally will run 6-7 balls and may get lucky once a session or year and B&R depending on tables played on. But generally on average I think they run about the number of balls that their skill level number has them at... 5
SL 6 - C+ players but have flashes of B- and sometimes B ability. They can get out with a wide open table. Despite that, they don't B&R a lot. Generally 6-7 ball run average with the occasional run out.
SL 7 - B- players, they can string racks together on a good day. They will also generally get out if the rack is open.
SL 8 - B to B+ players that have flashes of A brilliance. I think at this point, people begin to make the game look a lot easier. Capable of stringing multiple racks together on a good day.
SL 9 - A players imo. They can string 3-4 racks together on a good day maybe more. I know one that beat a SL 3 75-4 in 6 innings.

The jump from 6 to a 7 is the biggest imo. Because that's where the player is realizing that they can break and run. That's where the mental block gets destroyed and imo that SL is the hardest to move up to. I know a 4 who use to be a 6. When he got to be a 6, he just fell apart.

Some handle the pressure better than others. But the main difference is that 7's can string racks together and that's a major jump in the mental game.
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Im better than I thought I was lol..

<----- SL9 and I sure as hell aint putting 3-4 racks up regularly.

My assessment of a SL 9 would be more along the lines of B+ to pro. For me to consider someone an A player they need a pretty large skill set, shooting, proper pattern play, safes, breaking, and kicking.

In the APA, you can get to 9 with just shooting alone.

I am a good example of that. Give me an open table with a decent starting shot, and I am pretty much the favorite to get out. Unfortunately my safety and kicking game still need a lot of work.

I would consider myself a B+ ish player. I'm almost there....

I took a solid beating from Donny Mills a couple weeks ago because of the hard time I was having getting control of the table back from him. I was getting our just fine, when I had that opportunity, but if Donny didnt make any errors or break dry, I could never get control back. He made a pretty simple observation that made a lot of sense.

"You (Bryan) have a hard time kicking back to safeties because all youve been playing are donkeys...."

In the APA, most of the Innings will end with my opponent missing or playing some garbage safe. Ive had a lot of practice running out, but not so much kicking from rough spots.

My kicking and safe game need some work before I would even consider myself an A player.

I look forward to making another donation to the Donny Mills fund...... lol
 
Good thread..the info can be a tough pill to swallow if you think you are better then you really are..every now and then I reffer back to Phil Capelle's book..play your best pool.
He has a pretty good describtion of progression through skill levels..imo a grand master player is a B+ to A- player. A, a player is,a pro player..your A+ players are the elite pro players..tough pill.
 
Anyway hard to compare divisions in a pool-country like america- to many large areas, so there will be always a big difference. And the point Steve shown up about those players who re *just* hangin around at the regional money-tournaments....know this very well. This is here the same :-)
Names you almost never here......then you play em and they re shooting like hell^^. And rating systems are always discussable.

lg
Ingo
 
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