SPF Poll

[JoeW]

Good question Joe. In my opinion, success leads to closer scrutiny especially by those who are less successful or have something else to sell.

Personally, I have always admired Bill Gates and his work. None-the-less like any endeavor there are flaws and some people exploit those flaws. It is the nature of capitalism and our society.

Someone, I forget who just now, pointed out that the communist societies have the least amount of dissent. With our way of life comes much loud, aggressive discussion.

I like the statement that Jews make about themselves when someone asked if they are argumentative. If you have two Jews you have three opinions. Applies equally well to us.

I think that often times the extent of the fault finding is a measure of success. Like someone else has said, if you haven’t been sued for a million dollars you haven’t arrived yet.

I think I am typical in that I like to see a good fight. Clears the air so to speak. But I prefer fair fights.

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

JoeW sounds like a perty bright fella.

 

[td873]

Although the poll is anecdotally statistically relevant (at best), as of today, it still indicates about 1 out of 7 attendees are unsatisfied (14%). Normalize that figure with the "good-bye" effect noted above, and the actual values might be more like 2-3 out of 7 (28%-42%).

Very interesting results - and contrary to what I initially expected to see. [edit: which I thought would be in favor SPF by a landslide]

-td

 

[sfleinen]

Product's quality related to marketing of that very product

Although the poll is anecdotally statistically relevant (at best), as of today, it still indicates about 1 out of 7 attendees are unsatisfied (14%). Normalize that figure with the "good-bye" effect noted above, and the actual values might be more like 2-3 out of 7 (28%-42%).

Very interesting results - and contrary to what I initially expected to see.

-td

TD:

I'd have to agree. I've been trying my best to keep in touch with this poll, as well as the thread that started it. Although the efforts to poll a relative sampling of SPF students for satisfaction are admirable (though, at times, a wee bit William F. Buckley-esque in the replies, IMHO), there's a basic flaw in the approach:

* No product, no matter its efficacy or how good it addresses a perceived need, justifies the vendor of that product to address the populace (marketplace from which he/she draws) from an ivory tower. Methinks the word "excathedral" was coined in a previous message, but I don't think that's a real word -- at least I can't find it in any of the printed or online dictionaries and thesauruses I normally use. (However, it does seem to accurately quantify the problem.) Humbly, this is the real reason for the strong debate that went on (is still going on?) in the thread for which this poll was created in response to.

Do I personally agree with the synopsis put forth in that thread? Sort of. I do agree that the instruction offered by Randy G., Scott Lee, Mike Page, Roger Long, et al. are more than worth the price of admission. That to me is a no-brainer. But I also believe that a e.g. "come hither and drink thine water, for thou will be cured of all pool ills and become a believer" packaging is certainly a detractor in some eyes, and the main focus for the rancorous replies/posts in that thread. I personally don't believe in the "if it's that good -- see these poll results here? -- they are justified in the way they package it," as seems to be the impetus behind the poll. I've taken a lot of life-altering instruction/coaching in my military and civilian years (certainly more important than pool instruction), and never once did I think the quality of the instruction/coaching justified any amount of posturing or "come drink thine water... ...and you will become a believer" packaging. This kind of packaging is almost universally despised.

However, do I think that any of the aforementioned knowingly and intentionally engaged in such activity? Hmm, I don't think so. I think maybe one or two of the aforementioned's manner of packaging might be misconstrued, 's all. I genuinely think these are nice, personable, extremely knowledgeable folks, who perhaps may've lost a sense on how they're delivering their message in the written word in forums at times. If the communiques were face-to-face or vocal, I'm sure this topic would've never come up in the first place due to obvious vocal and physical body/facial inflections that "soften" the tone of what's being delivered. Do I think the ivory tower delivery happens? Yes, I do. Do I think it's malicious or intentionally condescending? No, I do not. Do I think that those that've lost their sense in how to portray themselves in the written word need to perhaps review their past communiques and try to put themselves in someone else's shoes reading that communique, to better learn how NOT to do this? Yes, I do. That's my honest opinion.

-Sean

 

[pooltchr]

Although the poll is anecdotally statistically relevant (at best), as of today, it still indicates about 1 out of 7 attendees are unsatisfied (14%). Normalize that figure with the "good-bye" effect noted above, and the actual values might be more like 2-3 out of 7 (28%-42%).

Very interesting results - and contrary to what I initially expected to see. [edit: which I thought would be in favor SPF by a landslide]

-td

While I am somewhat surprised that there are that number of students who were unsatisfied, I also have to wonder (I don't want to know, I just wonder) which instructors they went to. Judging from the feedback I see in various threads, I would be quite surprised if they had worked with Randy, Scott, Stan, Roger, myself, or any of the other instructors who have made this their business. Some instructors do get certified, and then fail to follow through with any additional training or continuing education. Like any service business, there are going to be some who are just better at what they do than others. The SPF instructors got that designation because they were recognized by an Advanced or Master SPF instructor. It still is the duty of a potential student to do a little homework before choosing an instructor. Just as some electricians do better work than others, so it is with instructors.

I personally have never told a student that my way was the only way. I do tell them that in my 47 years of playing pool, the teaching methods we use are the best I have seen. If someone comes up with a better way to teach pool, I will be one of the first students to learn it.

Steve

 

[JoeW]

My apologies, the correct spelling is ex cathreda see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Infallibility

 

[td873]

While I am somewhat surprised that there are that number of students who were unsatisfied, I also have to wonder which instructors they went to.

[...]
I would be quite surprised if they had worked with Randy, Scott, Stan, Roger, myself, or any of the other instructors who have made this their business.

I think this exemplifies one of the issues with the poll. There is no way to prove, disprove, or even draw a reasonable conclusion about SPF instructors, or students who were trained by them, from the poll. There is no distinction between a master instructor, advanced, certified, recognized, or even reserve instructor. There is no way to tell how long ago the instruction was, how much they paid, what they asked for in relation to what they received, what the students level was, what their goals were, etc. etc.

Also, some readers may even interpret the unfavorable numbers as a statistical black eye for the SPF "crew," which is a very unfortunate side effect of a poll that was never intended bash SPF.

Did I mention statistical irrelevance?

-td

 

[Scott Lee]

One of the biggest drawbacks to a poll like this, is that the majority of students who seek out SPF instruction do not come from this site, or any pool site. They come from word-of-mouth referrals, and some small advertising that is done on-site, where the school will be held (in the case of 'road show schools'), and in nearby area poolrooms. Consequently you're certainly not going to get a 'statistically relevant' number of members or visitors here on AzB, who have been exposed to this style of teaching.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think this exemplifies one of the issues with the poll. There is no way to prove, disprove, or even draw a reasonable conclusion about SPF instructors, or students who were trained by them, from the poll. There is no distinction between a master instructor, advanced, certified, recognized, or even reserve instructor. There is no way to tell how long ago the instruction was, how much they paid, what they asked for in relation to what they received, what the students level was, what their goals were, etc. etc.

Also, some readers may even interpret the unfavorable numbers as a statistical black eye for the SPF "crew," which is a very unfortunate side effect of a poll that was never intended bash SPF.

Did I mention statistical irrelevance?

-td

 

[Tennesseejoe]

No Opinion Here

You may read the poll results any way you are inclined:
1. Out of the 57 responding, who attended the school, 49 were satisfied. Or
2. Out of the thousands who have attended the pool school 38 were very satisfied.

 

[Roger Long]

My apologies, the correct spelling is ex cathreda see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Infallibility

Oops, again, Joe. It's Ex Cathedra.

As Bart Simpson once said, "Don't kill me, Dad."

 

[td873]

You may read the poll results any way you are inclined:

But, no matter how many ways you read it, it will still be statistically irrelevant.

-td

 

[JoeW]

Spelling has never been my strong suit. Oh well.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." some wag said. Make of them what you will.

As an overall assessment I think they support the idea tha there are many satisfied customers. Before you get too wrapped up in one or another number think about it in real world terms.

Take any ten people who like to play pool and come to your local pool hall for the first time. How many would you expect to say "satisfied" ten days later?

Lets see, one guy didn't find any good looking women. One hated the idea he could not smoke, one hated the table he played on and the list goes on. If seven of ten people looking to play pool were satisfied your business is doing pretty darn good.

BTW should you, as a business person address the issues raised? Maybe some but not others.

 

[ShootingArts]

I think I just found the first problem(grin)

Hu, a good survey is supposed to make you think and perhaps even struggle with arriving at an honest opinion. …

Joe,

I think I just found the first issue we are having discussing polls. My very first goal of the polls was to get accurate feedback from as many customers as possible. I very much didn't want them to struggle. I wanted them to quickly answer three to five questions as accurately and painlessly as possible. I wanted my polls to be easy and maybe even a little bit fun.

All I wanted to know was if we were pleasing my customers and if we weren't what did the customers perceive as our weakest areas. I knew the areas I wanted to improve but it could be more important to improve the areas that the customers were less happy with.

I tried longer polls and pared them down to three to five questions with three to five answers each. My customers could fill them out in less than a minute and drop them in a box. Sometimes one poll led to another equally short poll breaking down a general area that polled weakest into more specific areas but again it would be a very short poll. I tried ten to twenty question polls and the response was terrible. Three to five questions they filled out killing time. I got literally fifty times the response.

Hu

 

[JoeW]

We have that trade off problem again. Easy and enjoyable are not always accurate. So how do you make it easy and accurate? Short is better, good definitions are better yet.

One of the classic question is How often do you drink? One guy says "often" and to him that means a 12 pack a day. The next person says "often" meaning every single Christmas and Easter. So how often is often? For that matter, how satisfied is satisfied?

 

[Roger Long]

Spelling has never been my strong suit. Oh well.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." some wag said. Make of them what you will.

As an overall assessment I think they support the idea tha there are many satisfied customers. Before you get too wrapped up in one or another number think about it in real world terms.

Take any ten people who like to play pool and come to your local pool hall for the first time. How many would you expect to say "satisfied" ten days later?

Lets see, one guy didn't find any good looking women. One hated the idea he could not smoke, one hated the table he played on and the list goes on. If seven of ten people looking to play pool were satisfied your business is doing pretty darn good.

BTW should you, as a business person address the issues raised? Maybe some but not others.

So, what is this poll providing in terms of answering the questions that I believe were on the minds of the inquirers in the other thread? Here are a few:

Are SPF techniques different than those taught by other BCA instructors?

Are SPF techniques better than those taught by other BCA instructors?

Are SPF instructors better qualified than other BCA instructors?

I suppose we should ask these same questions in comparison to ACS Certified instructors and independent professional instructors as well, but I think the confusion really set in when it was mentioned that all SPF instructors are BCA instructors, but not all BCA instructors are SPF instructors. Correct?

People just want to know the difference.

Roger

 

[randyg]

So, what is this poll providing in terms of answering the questions that I believe were on the minds of the inquirers in the other thread? Here are a few:

Are SPF techniques different than those taught by other BCA instructors? In general, Yes.

Are SPF techniques better than those taught by other BCA instructors? Better? Different, Yes.

Are SPF instructors better qualified than other BCA instructors? No! Trained different, Yes.

I suppose we should ask these same questions in comparison to ACS Certified instructors and independent professional instructors as well, but I think the confusion really set in when it was mentioned that all SPF instructors are BCA instructors, but not all BCA instructors are SPF instructors. Correct? Correct.

People just want to know the difference.
The real difference lies in HOW we teach our students not WHAT we teach.

Roger

Thanks Roger....SPF=randyg

 

[Scott Lee]

So, what is this poll providing in terms of answering the questions that I believe were on the minds of the inquirers in the other thread? Here are a few:

Are SPF techniques different than those taught by other BCA instructors?

A: Sometimes they are vastly different...sometimes not much different at all.

Are SPF techniques better than those taught by other BCA instructors?

A: Not necessarily...but it depends on the instructor.

Are SPF instructors better qualified than other BCA instructors?

A: Again...not necessarily...but it depends on the instructor.

I suppose we should ask these same questions in comparison to ACS Certified instructors and independent professional instructors as well, but I think the confusion really set in when it was mentioned that all SPF instructors are BCA instructors, but not all BCA instructors are SPF instructors. Correct?

People just want to know the difference.

Roger

Roger...Yes, all SPF instructors currently are BCA Certified...and no, not all BCA instructors are SPF advocates. As I have mentioned before, there are MANY qualified instructors out there, who are not affiliated with the BCA program. Joe Tucker, Tony Robles, and Blackjack Dave Sapolis come immediately to mind. These guys are great to work with, and certainly know their stuff!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

Pops...GMTA! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks Roger....SPF=randyg

 

[metallicane]

I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Scott and have seen a vast improvement in my game since our lesson. I would not hesitate to do it again.

 

[sfleinen]

Keeping poll on track, and final results of poll proves... ?

Folks:

Humbly, I'd recommend "taking the blue pill" -- not spiraling down rabbit holes to see how deep they go -- because the purpose of this poll is starting to get foggy. Mentions of SPF instruction as compared to BCA instruction, re: methodologies, what's taught, the different certifications compared, etc. honestly have no bearing on what this poll was originally intended to do, which, if JoeW will correct me if I'm wrong, was to build a "case" to address what he perceives to be inflammatory remarks posted in that other thread. (I tried in post #s 7 and 64 to assist JoeW in keeping folks on track about this.)

But, speaking of building a case to address those remarks, let's do a hypothetical experiment. Rather than engaging in Bill Buckley-esque big-word debate about the purpose of polls / inaccuracy of polls, let's end-run the poll altogether, and say, oh, there's an 80% satisfaction rate. Hmm... let's go one further -- let's say it were 90% "very satisfied" rate. Aw heck, let's just make the assumption that those that responded with other than a "satisfied" or "very satisfied" probably had a cold, hadn't yet had their morning coffee, or else weren't thinking clearly at that moment, so let's toss those results out. There, we now have a 100% satisfaction rate. My question is this -- what does that prove, relative to the inflammatory remarks posted in that other thread? Nothing -- these poll results cannot be used to "defend" ivory tower / ex cathedra presence-portrayal on forums! That is another facet of statistical irrelevance -- interesting data, and probably useful for something, but useful for addressing (or a better word -- countering) the remarks posted in that other thread? Humbly, I think not.

Bottom line: no product, no matter its efficacy or how well it addresses a need, substantiates the kind of forum portrayal that the posters of the perceived inflammatory remarks are trying to point out -- i.e. "come hither and drink thine water... thou will become a believer." (I believe one poster [methinks Lou?] used the apropos analogy, "yes master; wax on, wax off.")

In summary, I believe these posters are saying, "I don't care *how good* your Kool-Aid tastes; it is not holy water, nor is it from the Fountain of Youth!" In that vein, I concur.

-Sean <- not subscribing to either camp, but firmly believes in *root cause* analysis