SPF Poll

[JoeW]

We are currently standing at 88% satisfaction rate. So what does that mean. For one, I think it indicates that in the face of whatever advertising is used, the SPF customers are satisfied.

I think it can be assumed that customers in some way learned about SPF before they took a lesson. That is they were exposed to some form of advertising. Then they took a lesson, then they rated their experience based on many things, such as their perceived needs, advertising, and the actual instructions. Regradless of what they thought, they did or did not use the information at some later point. Given the high level of satisfaction, I think it is reasonable to think that they use what they have learned.

I think the issue remains concerning what does SPF use for advertising? I doubt that they say that their ways are the "best" way, etc. That discussion is more about the SPF instructors attitude on a public forum. It is offensive to some and innocuous to others. (OH OH there go those big words again). Because one finds their "attitude" offensive does not mean they are deceptive in their real world advertising. The poll leads to the conclusion that they have many satisfied customers regardless of advertising methods they used. Further study is needed

Note that we are beginning to disentangle perception from attitude from fact. Fact -- their customrs are satisfied. Now let the attitude discussion rage on with out impugning their integrity. (slipped another big word in there).

You know my first wife, who was from Scotland, said to me, "Joe, why do you use a big word like 'marmalade' when 'jam' will do." I guess some of us just like the language. :grin: On public forums the written word conveys what one is trying to say and clairity is important (so is spelling). Some words are more descriptive than others.

 

[Roger Long]

Thanks Roger....SPF=randyg

Now we're starting to get somewhere! You see, my question was, how does this poll answer the questions that have been brought up? And I believe the answer to my own question is; it doesn't. I don't even see where it possibly can. It just seems to have raised more questions.

But you and Scott do have the answers, and I think the answers you have provided to just these few questions can help pave the way to answering the rest.

Roger

 

[chefjeff]

The only "poll" that matters is if you use it and it works for you.

Earl and Johnny were in town a while back giving lessons. Of the 15 or so students, I know of only two who use what Earl taught them. The rest that I know made comments that Earl was crazy, his advice was way off base, and basically that they got nothing from Earl that would help their games. Same gripes, different day.

I (and one other guy that post here) came away with some value from Earl's advice. I figured that for the money, I was going to practice what Earl showed us. After a month or so, I figured out why Earl told us about the high bridge he was espousing. I now have another powerful tool in my box to use when needed...and I use it more often than the once in 500 that Johnny indicated we'd use it.

So, my point again is, if guys like Johnny Archer and Earl Strickland can't agree on what is good instruction, then it becomes obvious that each of us (not a polled group) attaches value, or not, to whatever pool education s/he receives.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston

 

[sfleinen]

Needless layering of language vs. "big words"

JoeW:

Hmm... multiple edits and additions to your post, in a matter of minutes. Did that Bill Buckley comparison bug you? If you notice, I tend to use big words myself. I do professional technical writing as part of my "day job," so "big words" are lingua franca for me. My point was not to get wrapped-up in needless layering of language ("layering" does not mean "big words"). Instead, get right to the heart of the matter. I believe I did my best to support you, but also point out the dangers of using "poll data" for an end result -- and correct me if I'm wrong, you *do intend* to use this data for a final conclusion, yes? Especially if the poll itself only addresses the content of the instruction, not how the delivery people portray themselves on forums. That latter item is indeed separate, and not part of the "marketing" of said instruction, which I believe is where the misunderstanding has occurred.

I hope that clears it up.

-Sean

We are currently standing at 88% satisfaction rate. So what does that mean. For one, I think it indicates that in the face of whatever advertising is used, the SPF customers are satisfied.

I think it can be assumed that customers in some way learned about SPF before they took a lesson. That is they were exposed to some form of advertising. Then they took a lesson, then they rated their experience based on many things, such as their perceived needs, advertising, and the actual instructions. Regradless of what they thought, they did or did not use the information at some later point.

I think the issue remains concerning what does SPF use for advertising? I doubt that they say that their ways are the "best" way, etc. That discussion is more about the SPF instructors attitude on a public forum. It is offensive to some and innocuous to others. (OH OH there go those big words again). Because one finds their "attitude" offensive does not mean they are deceptive in their real world advertising. The poll leads to the conclusion that they have many satisfied customers regardless of whatever advertising methods they use. Further study is needed

Note that we are beginning to disentangle perception from attitude from fact. Fact -- their customrs are satisfied. Now let the attitude discussion rage on with out impugning their integrity. (slipped another big word in there).

You know my first wife, who was from Scotland, said to me, "Joe, why do you use a big word like 'marmalade' when 'jam' will do." I guess some of us just like the language. :grin:

 

[ShootingArts]

can't see it

...
Note that we are beginning to disentangle perception from attitude from fact. Fact -- their customrs are satisfied. Now let the attitude discussion rage on with out impugning their integrity. (slipped another big word in there).
...

Joe,

I deleted one long reply to you this morning to not further derail the thread but I absolutely disagree with eight out of sixty-six customers being unsatisfied being a good rating. I am actually astonished that the number is that high. A local business could not survive with that many people unhappy with them. As I have said my goal was less than one in a hundred.

Put another way, the average indicates that some people in every group class held go away unhappy. I think that your poll and the results have inadvertently cast doubt on some good instructors because I am considerably more skeptical of SPF instruction than I was prior to this poll and I suspect at least some other readers feel the same.

As for attitude and perception, true attitude doesn't really matter. These schools are a business and what matters is the public's perception of your attitude. There is an issue because a significant portion of the public perceives an attitude they don't care for.

Regardless of what is real, perception matters. In many cases it is more important than what is real. We prove that every election.

Hu

 

[JoeW]

JoeW:

Hmm... multiple edits and additions to your post, in a matter of minutes. Did that Bill Buckley comparison bug you?

Not at all. To the contrary, I enjoyed your comments. I am a very poor speller and often have to go and check with MS Word or some such. I probably should not compose on the net and should copy from MS Word.

If you notice, I tend to use big words myself. I do professional technical writing as part of my "day job," so "big words" are lingua franca for me. My point was not to get wrapped-up in needless layering of language ("layering" does not mean "big words"). Instead, get right to the heart of the matter. I believe I did my best to support you, but also point out the dangers of using "poll data" for an end result -- and correct me if I'm wrong, you *do intend* to use this data for a final conclusion, yes?

My "conclusions" stop here. Some disagree and that is OK with me. I think the air was cleared, a little and that is sufficient.

Especially if the poll itself only addresses the content of the instruction, not how the delivery people portray themselves on forums. That latter item is indeed separate, and not part of the "marketing" of said instruction, which I believe is where the misunderstanding has occurred.

I hope that clears it up.

Yep
-Sean

I found some of the comments in the prior thread egregious (now I'm just showing off) and thought that some factual information, however vague, might be of help.

 

[JoeW]

Hu said, "Put another way, the average indicates that some people in every group class held go away unhappy. I think that your poll and the results have inadvertently cast doubt on some good instructors because I am considerably more skeptical of SPF instruction than I was prior to this poll and I suspect at least some other readers feel the same."

You puts down your money and you takes your chances. There are different ways to interpret the data. You have one way I have another and that is what makes us who we are.

 

[ShootingArts]

this we agree to!

Joe,

This we agree to, we have different perspectives. I am looking at the poll's results from a businessman's perspective and perception, you are looking at it from a PhD's perspective. My rule of thumb is that one in twenty unhappy customers is the break even point for word of mouth to neither harm or help a business. SPF has one in eight unhappy customers, roughly two and a half times the unhappy customers I feel a business can afford to have just to break even on word of mouth. I do think that a similar poll including just a few of our regular posters instead of all of SPF would get a considerably better average however.

Hu

Hu said, "Put another way, the average indicates that some people in every group class held go away unhappy. I think that your poll and the results have inadvertently cast doubt on some good instructors because I am considerably more skeptical of SPF instruction than I was prior to this poll and I suspect at least some other readers feel the same."

You puts down your money and you takes your chances. There are different ways to interpret the data. You have one way I have another and that is what makes us who we are.

 

[td873]

We are currently standing at 88% satisfaction rate. So what does that mean. For one, I think it indicates that in the face of whatever advertising is used, the SPF customers are satisfied.

[...]

The poll leads to the conclusion that they have many satisfied customers regardless of advertising methods they used.

Fact -- their customers are satisfied.

There are no facts or conclusions you can make, assume, determine, gleen, acsertain or deduce from the poll. The data is skewed and hopelessly flawed to begin with (garbage in, garbage out). To indicate, state, hint, or even insinuate that a statistically irrelevant poll can serve as a basis for a conclusion is fundamentally inaccurate.

The poll was generated to support your original premise and now you are simply bootstrapping your conclusion with the "data" the poll was constructed to achieve. Any results are tainted and all discussions of "conclusions" should be footnoted with disclaimers of futility.

-td

 

[sfleinen]

One is not a reason for the other

Hu said, "Put another way, the average indicates that some people in every group class held go away unhappy. I think that your poll and the results have inadvertently cast doubt on some good instructors because I am considerably more skeptical of SPF instruction than I was prior to this poll and I suspect at least some other readers feel the same."

You puts down your money and you takes your chances. There are different ways to interpret the data. You have one way I have another and that is what makes us who we are.

Joe:

Having conviction to defend that which you feel was defiled is an admirable trait. You are willing to stick your neck out, go above and beyond, and try to do good. That is always admirable.

*HOWEVER* (and there's a big one here, if you know me), the following can also be said:

1. A very well-respected instructor and author PM'ed me, and *simplified* what I was trying to say, in one sentence. My eyes got as big as saucers, because it was like a hand reached into my brain with a colander to sift the bare-bones meaning of it all. He likened the "poll" to nothing more than a "safety in numbers" tactic -- i.e. "we have more homeboys than you on 'our' side, so you better sit down and shut up!" Based on your "satisfied" comments, I can't say I disagree with this.

2. The "puts down your money and takes your chances" quote is quite true. It applies to a lot of things in life. However, how does this answer or counter what Hu oh-so-correctly observed? Joe, to be honest, I think your poll did more damage than good. It possibly backfired -- with the possible backlash effect that some prospective students who were "sitting on the fence, waiting for the right information to tip them one way or the other over one side of the fence" might now have already tipped -- against taking SPF instruction. Or at least they're very skeptical, now. With such lucid observations as Hu's, I know if I were an SPF instructor/coach, I'd be concerned, if not at least a wee bit miffed, about what the intentions behind a "poll" of this nature might've done!

I apologize if any of my comments come off as terse or pointed, but like I previously wrote, I'm a firm believer in root-cause analysis. When it comes to divining the real meaning, I don't sugar-coat, and I'm not afraid to blow the dust off things to show people what's really underneath.

This post is not intended to be malicious. It is intended to enlighten, and get people back on track to *good* things, not bad. Your intentions were admirable, Joe, but incorrectly implemented, IMHO.

Humbly,
-Sean

 

[JoeW]

Some satisfaction rates with links to the URL where found.

Rental cars (75% satisfied)The study, based on over 13,400 surveys of business and leisure travelers between October 2007 and October 2008, measures satisfaction with renting cars at airports. The study bases results on fees, the pick-up process, the rental car, the reservation and the return process and shuttle service. Overall satisfaction declines significantly from 750 points on a 1,000-point scale in 2007 to 734 in 2008.
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=94755

Worker satisfaction about 50%
The largest decline in overall job satisfaction, from 60.9% to 49.2%, occurred among workers 35-44. The second largest decline took place among workers aged 45-54, with the satisfaction level dropping from 57.3% to 47.7%. The smallest decline occurred among workers 65 and over. Overall job satisfaction declined from 60.8% to 58.0%, making this group the most satisfied with their jobs.
http://www.deadmime.org/~dank/blog/archives/2005/03/job_satisfactio.html

Health Care Plan 37% consumer driven, 67% comprehensive plans
The study, which came as President Bush proposed tax incentives to encourage people to be more prudent in their health-care spending, found that just 37% of enrollees in consumer-driven plans were satisfied with their health coverage, compared with 67% for those with comprehensive plans.
http://www.allbusiness.com/insurance/health-insurance-government-health-national/7568167-1.html

Physician satisfaction with career specialty choice runs 40 – 50%
See link in post #2 at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606819

Dell computer customer satisfaction with services is about 75% up from 60% they sell a lot of computers too.
See http://pr.typepad.com/pr_communications/2007/05/dell_customer_s.html

SPF customer satisfaction 88% is not bad relative to these other surveys. The other surveys were not "selected" to support my point of view but are the first ones that had actual numbers.

Is anyone satisfied???

There are more, these are only the first few I came across on a Google search.

 

[JoeW]

We have more homeboys than you, is one way to look at it. Here is another.

Person One. “We have a great product and think everyone should try it.”

Person Two. “You deceive people and say that you are best when you are not.”

There are many ways to address the issue. One way, and only one of several ways, to begin to address the issue with limited time and money is to find out what consumers have to say about the product. Consumer satisfaction is one measure of product quality: Did the consumer get what they paid for and was it something with which they were satisfied? It may even be a better measure than the comments by some self appointed authority on the matter (Person Two).

The homeboys are not fellow instructors but the actual consumers of the service. At least we think they are. There are all sorts of limitations to such a poll and it provides only some, limited, insight into the issue. It does not address the issue of who is best nor does it address the issue of what one should say.

The results do support the idea that “We have a great product,” in so far as the consumers are concerned.

With regard to what business people do find in customer satisfaction surveys see the preceding post.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Sam...Let's not go there again. Nobody is saying SPF is the only way to improve. If it works for you...great. If not, perhaps another way of learning will work better. FTR, in your earlier post, where you mentioned, that after a month, you were playing better, and noticed that the things I showed you, were now a part of your process...that's the whole point. You USE SPF to get to the point where you don't think about it anymore. It's really more about learning about YOURSELF, and how to create a process (mental & physical), that you can learn to do every time, the same way, without thinking (just like the pros do). I am not saying the pros use SPF...I'm saying each of them have their own "process", that they do the same way, each time they stand down on the table. Think BEFORE shooting...Shoot WITHOUT thinking! I'm glad you're playing better, regardless of what helped you!

Anyone who has worked with any of us (Randyg, Pooltcher, Denny S, Stan Shuffet, myself, or many others), knows that we teach our students to take the information for what it is...information. Use what you like, and/or what works for you...and don't worry about the rest. Our most successful students seem to incorporate much of what we teach them.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Very good post. This is exactly why I worked with you in the first place. I remember we quickly got on the topic of elbow drop or no. You advised that it was to be avoided. However, after looking at my stroke, and given the fact that I am tall, it seemed like with a standard length cue this was going to be a bad idea to try and change (or at least I thought so). You were able to build your lesson info around this, and I was able to take your teaching and make it *mine*. Any instructor that thinks there is only one right way to do things should probably be in another line of work. I really like the idea of viewing a lesson as information that you can take and build into your own concept. Also, I think the "do it the same way every time" is huge.

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT

 

[sfleinen]

Aha! Therein lies the problem...

Joe:

Aha, I think I see where your perception is problematic related to the poll! It begins at Person One. The issue taken by Person Two (at least the really vocal two in that other thread, you know who they are) was *NOT* about deceptive advertising. It was about ARROGANCE. I tried over and over again in multiple posts, using phraseology like, "come hither and drink thine water, and ye shall be a believer" to make this point. You even bought on for a spell, when you perused down the road of correcting a spelling error on your part (remember "ex cathedra"?). Then you did an about-face and went on this road of statistics, statistical [ir]relevance, et al. You can quote all the statistics you want. It has no relevance here.

If Dell Computer or any other company you regurgitated statistics for displayed the type of ARROGANCE seen in that other thread (that the posters of the perceived "inflammatory" remarks responded to), then you bet Dell Computer would get their *ss handed to them by the general public in a hurry. No statistics would save them there.

I'm sorry, but no amount of high school safety-in-numbers bully tactic is going to substantiate ARROGANCE. The bully always gets "his" in the parking lot by the one kid he chose to pick on that happened to be the wrong kid to pick on in the first place.

And it's not like the ARROGANCE was a one-off "misunderstanding of marketing methodology" (or any of a plethora of other dodge-the-issue excuses). Go take a look at an ongoing thread entitled, "My short-lived APA experience" and tell me what you see there can't be construed as ARROGANCE (and really childish stuff, to boot!). There are those of us that know the person better or give the person the benefit of the doubt, and perhaps write it off as "this guy's lost touch with reality in how to communicate with the forum-posting public." That's how I like to view it. But I'll tell ya, I will say outright that the posters of those perceived "inflammatory" remarks have my backing -- they have a right to notice when someone's popping off with an attitude and call that person on it, no matter how good their Kool-Aid offering tastes.

Respectfully,
-Sean

We have more homeboys than you, is one way to look at it. Here is another.

Person One. “We have a great product and think everyone should try it.”

Person Two. “You deceive people and say that you are best when you are not.”

There are many ways to address the issue. One way, and only one of several ways, to begin to address the issue with limited time and money is to find out what consumers have to say about the product. Consumer satisfaction is one measure of product quality: Did the consumer get what they paid for and was it something with which they were satisfied? It may even be a better measure than the comments by some self appointed authority on the matter (Person Two).

The homeboys are not fellow instructors but the actual consumers of the service. At least we think they are. There are all sorts of limitations to such a poll and it provides only some, limited, insight into the issue. It does not address the issue of who is best nor does it address the issue of what one should say.

The results do support the idea that “We have a great product,” in so far as the consumers are concerned.

With regard to what business people do find in customer satisfaction surveys see the preceding post.

 

[ShootingArts]

largely invalid

Joe,

Your selection of surveys is highly questionable. Most of them are from captive customers that have little or no choice in their options. Everyone that needs a car upon arrival is going to rent one at the airport for example, like it or not.

The closest to a legitimate survey to compare to your poll is Dell but even there the end user often has little choice as the purchase is often a corporate or company decision. Dell has had major issues with customer satisfaction and it has cost them. Bringing it home to me, I once installed networks. In the first part of that time period I recommended and sold Dells, often a network at a time. By the time I quit installing networks I strongly recommended against buying Dell because the price was still inflated due to name value but the product and service were both lacking.

Pool players have many choices besides going to an SPF instructor. Therefore pleasing their customer base becomes far more important than say the rental car companies who only have to stay in the same general satisfaction range as the other car rentals to keep their customers. Also car rentals are often not the choice of the person filling out the survey so while the user may be unhappy the entity renting the car may be well pleased.

Do other forms of instruction with plenty of local competition have this low of an approval rating? My network instructor's approval rating that I took courses from was in the very high 90's, almost perfect.

Hu

Some satisfaction rates with links to the URL where found.

Rental cars (75% satisfied)The study, based on over 13,400 surveys of business and leisure travelers between October 2007 and October 2008, measures satisfaction with renting cars at airports. The study bases results on fees, the pick-up process, the rental car, the reservation and the return process and shuttle service. Overall satisfaction declines significantly from 750 points on a 1,000-point scale in 2007 to 734 in 2008.
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=94755

Worker satisfaction about 50%
The largest decline in overall job satisfaction, from 60.9% to 49.2%, occurred among workers 35-44. The second largest decline took place among workers aged 45-54, with the satisfaction level dropping from 57.3% to 47.7%. The smallest decline occurred among workers 65 and over. Overall job satisfaction declined from 60.8% to 58.0%, making this group the most satisfied with their jobs.
http://www.deadmime.org/~dank/blog/archives/2005/03/job_satisfactio.html

Health Care Plan 37% consumer driven, 67% comprehensive plans
The study, which came as President Bush proposed tax incentives to encourage people to be more prudent in their health-care spending, found that just 37% of enrollees in consumer-driven plans were satisfied with their health coverage, compared with 67% for those with comprehensive plans.
http://www.allbusiness.com/insurance/health-insurance-government-health-national/7568167-1.html

Physician satisfaction with career specialty choice runs 40 – 50%
See link in post #2 at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606819

Dell computer customer satisfaction with services is about 75%
See http://pr.typepad.com/pr_communications/2007/05/dell_customer_s.html

SPF customer satisfaction 88% is not bad relative to these other surveys. The other surveys were not "selected" to support my point of view but are the first ones that had actual numbers.

Is anyone satisfied???

There are more, these are only the first few I came across on a Google search.

 

[Secaucus Fats]

I got SPF lessons from Scott Lee and applied them to my game. The result has been a far greater degree of consistency in stroke, shot making ability and control of the cueball. To me, the lessons were very helpful and definitely worth more than I paid for them. Scott is an excellent teacher / communicator and I have no problems with recommending his services to anyone who wants to improve their playing skills.

Fats

 

[JoeW]

Sean said, "Aha, I think I see where your perception is problematic related to the poll! It begins at Person One. The issue taken by Person Two (at least the really vocal two in that other thread, you know who they are) was *NOT* about deceptive advertising. It was about ARROGANCE. "

I said, "... saying you are best when you are not." I think this is a tactful way of re-stating arrogance.

Arrogance is a subjective term. When told he was arrogant, Frank Loyd Wright (Sp) said he had not found a reaon not to be what others call arrogant.

Hu, my questionable choices were dictated by the Google search engine and the dispay of numerical estimates. I did not want to be accused of selective reporting. I looked up satisfaction rates for schools and find simialr results 78 - 88 parental satisfaction. Parents are not a bad choice as they can pull their kids out of one school and select another. Page through this if you are inclined. I reference parental satisfaction as a better comparison.

http://www.savannah.chatham.k12.ga....d+Research/Executive+Summary/Climate+Surveys/

BTW as a network person servicing Dell machines that places your work in the 60 - 75% range. At least while you did the work and we lump you in with all other Dell service people. Now don't get offended. I am simply making a point about surveys.

 

[td873]

statistics mumbo jumbo

What is your basis for believing your poll is representative of actual values?

Please check with your colleagues in the statistics department and get back to us.

-td

 

[stumpie71]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it an 88% approval rating so far right. That's not to bad IMO. Now how many people voted that DIDN'T take a lesson. While I don't know, I would venture to guess at least a couple. This alone can make the ratings go up or down.

 

[JoeW]

What is your basis for believing your poll is representative of actual values?

Please check with your colleagues in the statistics department and get back to us.

-td

Cheap shot. I don't believe I ever said it was a representative sample. Also did not use the word random or any of several other related terms. It is well known that there are problems with internet surveys. In fact, I suggsted a few survey problems in a prior post. I did not feel the need to present a discussion on the strengths (there are some) and limits of internet / computer polling. Population estimates for those who responded could be estimated given a sufficient number of replies. This caution was presented.

Stumpie71, it is interesting that while many of those who were "satisfied" made comments those who were dissatisfied did not leave a comment. One can only wonder. It would be interesting and possibly informative to learn what led to their dissatisfaction.