Spin applied during contact
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I've since read your blog.
You have a couple a good points in it but I disagree with your overall take on a certain matter.
Some are very selfish & self centered & do not care anything about others & 'never' take them into consideration.
My viewpoint in that matter is ALL about others.
You can find some examples here, specifically HSV A.82 thru A.84. (You may need to click on the alternate interface link near the top of the page, depending on your browser.)
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/index.html
They don't show how the shots were hit, but as Patrick indicated, they're straight on stun (stop) shots with sidespin. With just a small amount of sidespin (tip offset), and at about any speed, the OB should acquire about a third (5/14'ths) of the CB's spin (as he also indicated), while the CB's loses the same, leaving it with 9/14'ths. Thus, the OB should be spinning at slightly more than half as fast as the CB after the collision.
With increasing tip offset, up to about halfway toward the miscue limit, the same thing occurs, but at slower shot speeds.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, it's hard to see if the OB has sidespin as it picks up topspin. The best way to "measure it" is by how it comes off a cushion.
Jim
There are many misconceptions in this thread. Here are some myth-busting corrections and clarifications, along with supporting resources:
1.) Cue-tip-CB contact time is typically in the range of 0.001-0.002 second; although it varies some with tip hardness and shot speed. For more info, see cue tip contact time and tip hardness effects. If the contact time were much larger than this (e.g., with a rubber tip), the amount of CB deflection (squirt) produced would be quite unacceptable. Also, what a person does with their grip or stroke has no practical effect on tip contact time. For more info, see: "type" or "quality" of stroke and effects of light vs. tight grip.
2.) A swoop stroke cannot create more sidespin than a straight stroke. The following video and article cover this topic fairly well, and more info and resources are available of the stroke swoop FAQ page:
NV F.2 - Swoop Stroke Experiment - Can swooping create extra spin on the cue ball?
"Swoop Experiment" (BD, August, 2015)
Enjoy,
Dave
1.) Cue-tip-CB contact time is typically in the range of 0.001-0.002 second; although it varies some with tip hardness and shot speed. For more info, see cue tip contact time and tip hardness effects. If the contact time were much larger than this (e.g., with a rubber tip), the amount of CB deflection (squirt) produced would be quite unacceptable. Also, what a person does with their grip or stroke has no practical effect on tip contact time. For more info, see: "type" or "quality" of stroke and effects of light vs. tight grip.
2.) A swoop stroke cannot create more sidespin than a straight stroke. The following video and article cover this topic fairly well, and more info and resources are available of the stroke swoop FAQ page:
NV F.2 - Swoop Stroke Experiment - Can swooping create extra spin on the cue ball?
"Swoop Experiment" (BD, August, 2015)
Enjoy,
Dave
Here's another:
3.) The most spin that can be transferred from the CB to an OB with a normal shot is: 35.71% (per TP A.27). For more info and demonstrations, see the spin transfer resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
Thanks, but I am having a hard time measuring the cue ball's rotation in those videos, as it is mostly out of frame.
I just put a third ball in line for the object ball to hit, leaving it spinning in place (with presumably a comparable loss in spin to that third ball).
5/14 is weirdly specific for a measured value, is this calculated? If so, from what?
Thank you kindly.
Banks
Banned
I'm guessing via rotations per second or something.
Rick, why do you keep on referencing that thread? Do you really think it's the holy grail of answers just because Fran said something about it? Did you even read what she wrote? She states that the swoop starts AT CONTACT. Good luck with that. She wants to keep hanging on to a myth, and you keep wanting to believe whatever she says. No matter how many times you are proven wrong about it.
Thanks Dave,
How many in your 'testing' would you term to have been a true swipe or swoop stroke, as Fran defined it?
All you did was apply the same BHE affects by a different means of execution, as in pivot first & stroke vs pivot during the stroke?
That is NOT what a true swipe stroke is.
Also did you not throw out the extremes when the 'swipe specialist' hit a couple of 'out-liars'?
Then due to some issue, did you not hit all of the shots yourself. How experienced & good are you at executing a true swipe stroke? I would not even call your 'specialist' a swipe specialist as he was just doing the during the stroke pivot with better, later, timing.
It's this type of 'testing' & the forming of a 'conclusion' that is misleading. Instead what you really have is conjecture based on insufficient & inappropriate data from which to from a proper real & true conclusion.
Sorry, but that is how I see it. We all make mistakes.
Best Wishes,
Rick
Would LD shafts mean anything to this debate? I thought the whole premise was that LD shafts deflect more after CB contact. While regular shafts deflect less. If the cue ball is gone .001-.002 after contact and you cant change anything during that short time. How do they work if they only have contact time to do their job?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Please then show us what a true swipe stroke is.
Dave, when you say this over there:
...by "actual tip offset from center" I assume you mean "center" as seen from the direction the cue is pointed, despite the fact that the effective tip offset from center is as seen looking along the OB's path. Is that right?
My point is that calling that "ineffective" tip offset the "actual" tip offset might help perpetuate the myth that you can get more spin with a swoop stroke than with a straight stroke. I suggest calling it the "perceived" tip offset (or something like that) instead, to indicate clearly that it isn't the one that matters for this comparison.
The difference between "perceived" and "effective" tip offset can be hard to visualize and grasp - many don't know a difference even exists - hence the misunderstandings.
pj
chgo
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You've said that multiple times, but have never to my knowledge said what you think a "true swipe stroke" is. Now's your chance to set us all straight.
pj <- do I hear crickets already?
chgo
Ms, Crimi defined it & you read that thread did you not. I saw that you were there viewing it.
Low Deflection (LD) doesn't refer to shaft deflection - it refers to OB deflection (squirt), which isn't significantly related to shaft deflection.
pj
chgo
Ms. Crimi defined it in the other thread & I made some comments there & I am fairly sure that you have read them there.
You merely want 'food' here.