Spin applied during contact

TCo said:
Please correct me if I’m wrong, for this discussion, swoop or swipe is being used to define a lateral movement of the tip at moment of impact. If that is correct, please continue.

How much lateral movement is happening in the .001-.002 seconds that the tip is in contact with the CB? I get a lateral swipe at the ball with my hand will certainly generate more spin than if I hit it direct on but a slap motion at the cue is significantly more lateral movement than forward.

In thinking of how much lateral movement on the tip would be necessary to create additional English, I think of apparent wind. If the actual wind is at 5 mph and from the west and I’m traveling in a car driving north at 45mph, the apparent wind altered approx 80 degrees to the North.

With a swoop stroke, how much lateral compared to forward are you stating takes place? I did a little math and for every mph you’re stroking the cue, the amount of distance the cueball travels while in contact with the tip is .0176 of an inch per MPH of the stroke if in contact for .001 seconds (obviously double if in contact for .002)

Example shot of 8 MPH - the distance during contact between tip and cue ball is between .1408 and .2816 of an inch. If an 8 mph stroke, in that time how much lateral movement do you think is possible? The same 8mph rate? Would that not create a 'path of travel' at 45 degrees? Should be easy to see in slow motion. Contact to center or to the side of the swoop direction would be moving the tip away from contacting the ball. Moving away, the tip friction doesn’t seem like it would be enough to impart extra English if moving away from the contact, certainly not maintain any level of accuracy. Forward force at any speed is more significantly forward than lateral or the cue ball would not move forward.

While I respect that there is belief a swoop does create more English, I’d like to see proof, with video, that a cue tip is traveling laterally at moment of impact because while people are professing this as laws of physics, most things in physics can be proven. We're not there yet - plenty of opinions though.

I offer my current opinion: I think 'swoop' is either placebo or a “Jim Furyk” in that you’re seeing an odd swing, but its square and true on impact.

Last point, I’d call a foul anyway, you need to contact the cueball in a stroking motion, not a swooping one.:wink:

ps - English, my answer is "yes I have"
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Is the downward stroke for a masse shot a "forward" stroke?

When one holds the cue out away form heir body & nearly vertical when the ball is near a rail & the shooter actually shoots toward their body, is the stroke forward?

When the cue rocks like in a pendulum stroke & the tip arcs downward toward the cloth during contact a forward stroke?

When the cue bends & deflects to the side is the stroke forward?

Relativity & percentage of movement.

You were on the right track early on but you went TOO far in one direction.

If you read my 90* thing in the other thread that was a visual key & NOT a representation of the stroke.

Do you think a Master BCA instructor & former Top 10 female player would advocate an illegal stroke?

Do you think Earl Strickland would employ an illegal stroke?

Best Wishes.
 
Corwyn_8 said:
dr_dave said:
H3.) The most spin that can be transferred from the CB to an OB with a normal shot is: 35.71% (per TP A.27). For more info and demonstrations, see the spin transfer resource page.
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This explains where that 5/14 comes from, thanks.

It also might explain the results I was seeing, 1) my intuitions about how to produce max spin transfer were a bit off, 2) my calls are newly cleaned.

Are the ranges given for the friction reasonable, in terms of what one might see in the real world?
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Yes. The predicted values agree fairly well with actual measurements.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Rick,

The purpose of the video and article was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use on their own to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

I hope you, Fran, and other swoop believers out there give it a try. The test is not that difficult, and it doesn't take very much time (especially for a well-practiced swooper).

If you or others do try it out with your swoop stroke, please share your results and observations.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Tom Ross, who participated in my early swoop videos (on the swoop stroke resource page) was a accomplished and well-practiced swooper, and he agrees with all of my observations and conclusions (after doing careful tests together with me).
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Dave,

You did not answer any of my questions.

And if it was just for the purpose of show a method to test then why the 'conclusion' statements?

Please do us ALL a favor & define what YOU think a swipe or swoop stroke is.

Thanks in advance should you choose to do so.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
dr_dave said:
PS: Tom Ross, who participated in my early swoop videos (on the swoop stroke resource page) was a accomplished and well-practiced swooper, and he agrees with all of my observations and conclusions (after doing careful tests together with me).
Click to expand...

That's odd, because it's pretty clear to me that almost all of his lateral movement of the tip is occurring after he makes contact with the CB.

I was playing with this again today. It is extremely difficult to get the timing perfect, and I made ton of bad shots. Maybe one in ten shots really did something special. When you time it right you can feel the tip grab the ball, and the spin just seems to come out of nowhere. On one shot I got 3 full diamonds off the rail and into the far point of the corner pocket. That's almost a full diamond more than I can get with a regular stroke using BHE.

Is it useful? Maybe to some in certain situations, but I suspect it you'd have to put in an awful lot of practice before you'd try it in an important match. The point is not should you use it, but rather, is it physically possible. At this point it's fairly obvious to me that it is possible, and that talented cueists (I noticed Mike Dechaine started swiping the CB during the last year or so) might get some extra spin in critical situations. At my skill level it's just a fun thing to do when I'm bored with drills.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Whatever the angle of motion might be during that moment of contact, wouldn't it be easier and more consistent to simply stroke at that angle without the swoop?

That's the threshold question.

pj
chgo
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You are assuming a stick moving continually in a straight line from two differently rotated positions around the cue ball.

It's easier & more consistent to paint the Mona Lisa by the paint by number reproduction method but the results are NOT the same.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
That's odd, because it's pretty clear to me that almost all of his lateral movement of the tip is occurring after he makes contact with the CB.

I was playing with this again today. It is extremely difficult to get the timing perfect, and I made ton of bad shots. Maybe one in ten shots really did something special. When you time it right you can feel the tip grab the ball, and the spin just seems to come out of nowhere. On one shot I got 3 full diamonds off the rail and into the far point of the corner pocket. That's almost a full diamond more than I can get with a regular stroke using BHE.

Is it useful? Maybe to some in certain situations, but I suspect it you'd have to put in an awful lot of practice before you'd try it in an important match. The point is not should you use it, but rather, is it physically possible. At this point it's fairly obvious to me that it is possible, and that talented cueists (I noticed Mike Dechaine started swiping the CB during the last year or so) might get some extra spin in critical situations. At my skill level it's just a fun thing to do when I'm bored with drills.
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:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

At least for your last two(2) paragraphs.

I'm not exactly sure to what the 1st. paragraph was referencing.
 
ENGLISH! said:
You are assuming a stick moving continually in a straight line from two differently rotated positions around the cue ball.
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I'm assuming a stick moving in whatever straight line moves the CB in the same initial direction (which would be about parallel with the tip's line of motion during contact with a swoop stroke).

pj
chgo
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
On one shot I got 3 full diamonds off the rail and into the far point of the corner pocket.
Click to expand...
This is the same amount I normally get with a straight stroke and maximum side spin on the equator. I'm surprised you get less with a straight stroke - maybe your cloth is slicker than mine?

Are you taking careful steps to determine where you're hitting the CB and where the CB's hitting the opposite rail? Did you check out the ways Dr. Dave controls for those things?

pj
chgo
 
ENGLISH! said:
Is the downward stroke for a masse shot a "forward" stroke?

When one holds the cue out away form heir body & nearly vertical when the ball is near a rail & the shooter actually shoots toward their body, is the stroke forward?

When the cue rocks like in a pendulum stroke & the tip arcs downward toward the cloth during contact a forward stroke?

When the cue bends & deflects to the side is the stroke forward?

Relativity & percentage of movement.

You were on the right track early on but you went TOO far in one direction.

If you read my 90* thing in the other thread that was a visual key & NOT a representation of the stroke.

Do you think a Master BCA instructor & former Top 10 female player would advocate an illegal stroke?

Do you think Earl Strickland would employ an illegal stroke?

Best Wishes.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you meant those a rhetorical questions however, "Forward" doesn't imply up, down, north, south, east, west, etc, its the direction you're pointing the cue.

With regard to an illegal stroke, I'm not certain where, but I have seen rules that state a legal stroke is in a forward stroking motion, not a swooping/swiping one. I believe it was put in place to take away the shot where you place the cue tip on the table as close to the cueball as possible and lift - not sure but thought it was BCA.

Title, be it Mr., Mrs. Professor, or Top 10 anything doesn't mean you would NOT do anything illegal or we'd be watching the IPT this weekend. I don't know these people personally and can't comment if they'd do something illegal. I have seen one person you mention deny making a foul when playing on TV.

As in your other posts regarding this subject that I have read, and reread, you're not making your point. Not here, nor in the instructor's section.

I'll respectfully disagree unless someone can bring evidence rather than opinions to contradict what Dr. Dave has proven false..
 
Drop The Rock said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNSvwZTN2s

I believe this is ever so elusive stroke that is being referred to. Its consistent with my 1st grade diagrams.
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I think that would be a minimal swipe stroke like I said about the Nick Varner stroke that was linked.

But... like I also said, Earl can probably get a lot from less than most, or something like that.

He's hitting that rather hard to move the ball all the way around the table with the intention of just spin to see how long the conditions will allow the spin to stay on the ball.

I've never hit a swipe stroke that hard for that purpose. He is also sending the CB into the rail with a slight 'forward' angle, but not much. to He 'wants' the ball getting to the 5th. rail WITH spin still on the ball.

Speed or momentum is a factor. He's killing the momentum with the 'full' hit of the OB so it's just the spinning ball that then grabs.

Fran Crimi is in the same hall as Earl on nearly a daily basis.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
There's no way to tell if the "swoop" occurs before, during or after contact.

And that shot can be made without any swoop - if you have Earl's stroke.

Damn!

pj
chgo
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Well according to some its happening during I guess. I have tried shooting this before and I have enough stroke to get close to the same result and I think this is a result of just stroking the hell out of the ball. Its tough to control your cue after contact with this much power. To me this isn't anything crazy because I line up with a slight pivot before and as I'm coming down to the table. All we are looking at is optimal spin/speed ratio are work right?
 
ENGLISH! said:
dr_dave said:
Rick,

The purpose of the video and article was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use on their own to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

I hope you, Fran, and other swoop believers out there give it a try. The test is not that difficult, and it doesn't take very much time (especially for a well-practiced swooper).

If you or others do try it out with your swoop stroke, please share your results and observations.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Tom Ross, who participated in my early swoop videos (on the swoop stroke resource page) was a accomplished and well-practiced swooper, and he agrees with all of my observations and conclusions (after doing careful tests together with me).
Click to expand...
Dave,

You did not answer any of my questions.

And if it was just for the purpose of show a method to test then why the 'conclusion' statements?
Click to expand...
The conclusions apply to what I and others (Tom Ross and Dave Gross) have been able to accomplish with our honest and best efforts at swoop strokes. Again if you or others can do better, I welcome your observations (and videos if available) showing us what is possible with different variations on the swoop stroke.

ENGLISH! said:
Please do us ALL a favor & define what YOU think a swipe or swoop stroke is.

Thanks in advance should you choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Rick,

IMO, as is often the case, you seem more interested in being argumentative than you do with arriving at a better understanding related to some of the issues and claims raised in this and similar threads. Honestly, I've already done more than my fair share of explanation and documentation with the videos, articles, illustrations, and info on the stroke swoop resource page. If that is not enough for you, I apologize, but I don't wish to put any more time into this topic which has already been beaten to death over countless years of forum activity. As I have suggested, I think the best path forward is for you (and others who agree with you) to first carefully read through and watch everything on the resource page with an open mind. Then, actually try the proposed and demonstrated test at a pool table, as documented carefully in the video. If you get different results, please share your observations, data and/or videos here.

Regards,
Dave
 
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ENGLISH! said:
I think that would be a minimal swipe stroke like I said about the Nick Varner stroke that was linked.

But... like I also said, Earl can probably get a lot from less than most, or something like that.

He's hitting that rather hard to move the ball all the way around the table with intention of just spin to see how long the conditions will allow the spin to stay on the ball.

I've never hit a swipe stroke that hard for that purpose. He is also sending the CB into the rail with a slight 'forward' angle, but not much.

Speed or momentum is a factor. He's killing the momentum with the 'full' hit of the OB so it's just the spinning ball that then grabs.

Fran Crimi is in the same hall as Earl on nearly a daily basis.
Click to expand...

I don't think earl is doing anything special other than compensating for squirt and not being made of steel. Hitting a round object at that speed will force the cue to deflect off of the center line.
 
TCo said:
Perhaps you meant those a rhetorical questions however, "Forward" doesn't imply up, down, north, south, east, west, etc, its the direction you're pointing the cue.

With regard to an illegal stroke, I'm not certain where, but I have seen rules that state a legal stroke is in a forward stroking motion, not a swooping/swiping one. I believe it was put in place to take away the shot where you place the cue tip on the table as close to the cueball as possible and lift - not sure but thought it was BCA.

Title, be it Mr., Mrs. Professor, or Top 10 anything doesn't mean you would NOT do anything illegal or we'd be watching the IPT this weekend. I don't know these people personally and can't comment if they'd do something illegal. I have seen one person you mention deny making a foul when playing on TV.

As in your other posts regarding this subject that I have read, and reread, you're not making your point. Not here, nor in the instructor's section.

I'll respectfully disagree unless someone can bring evidence rather than opinions to contradict what Dr. Dave has proven false..
Click to expand...

I am fairly sure that the rule to which you refer says "scooping" & not swiping or swooping, unless it has been re-written since the last time I read it which was certainly awhile ago so that is certainly possibly.

Sloopy Pockets did what Ms Crimi advised.
 
dr_dave said:
The conclusions apply to what I and others (Tom Ross and Dave Gross) have been able to accomplish with our honest and best efforts at swoop strokes. Again if you or others can do better, I welcome your observations (and videos if available) showing us what is possible with different variations on the swoop stroke.

Rick,

IMO, as is often the case, you seem more interested in being argumentative than you do with arriving at a better understanding related to some of the issues and claims raised in this and similar threads. Honestly, I've already done more than my fair share of explanation and documentation with the videos, articles, illustrations, and info on the stroke swoop resource page. If that is not enough for you, I apologize, but I don't wish to put any more time into this topic which has already been beaten to death over countless years of forum activity. As I have suggested, I think the best path forward is for you (and others who agree with you) to first carefully read through and watch everything on the resource page with an open mind. Then, actually try the proposed and demonstrated test at a pool table, as documented carefully in the video. If you get different results, please share your observations, data and/or videos here.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

So Dave,

You will write out that 167 word explanation & reasons why you will not simply do us ALL a favor & give your definition of exactly what you think a swipe/swoop stroke actually is.

Interesting.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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