Spin transfer with follow and draw?

BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm convinced that it's possible to transfer a small amount of english from the cue ball to an object ball: Using right side spin will put some left side spin on the object ball. But I'm less convinced that you can put draw or follow on an object ball.

The situation I'm thinking of came up in a combination shot where it could have been advantageous to draw the combination ball back a bit after it made the second ball. The suggestion I heard was that you could put follow on the cue ball which would then put draw on the object ball so it would come back after making the next ball. The cue ball was at a slight angle, so it was at least possible to use high on the cue ball, and then it would get out of the way for the next ball to draw back after making the combination.

But I seriously doubt it's possible to put draw on an object ball like that. Speed is so important with follow and draw, and it's probably only possible to get a small amount of spin to transfer, that I'm skeptical it can work with follow/draw.

Maybe a better example that you often hear people talk about is that when you want to make both balls in a combination shot, you should put draw on the cue ball, which will transfer into follow on the combination ball, making it follow right in after the first one. This seems a bit more plausible to me, but my guess is that you have to hit the cue ball at a faster speed to keep draw on it, and that speed would cause the next ball to slide rather than follow, defeating the purpose. Probably just hitting it slowly would get the next ball to naturally "follow" by rolling. (And more important than anything is to make sure the combination ball hits the next ball squarely.)

But maybe I'm completely wrong. I'm interested in hearing thoughts about this, or seeing if anyone has done any experiments with it. I've seen some of the videos and discussion about transfer of sidepsin, but less on transfer of follow/draw. Thanks in advance.
 
I think all of us have seen follow put on a ball but I would agree with you about draw. I do not think I have seen anyone transfer draw on a ball. It seems like you would have to put an extreme amount of top spin on the cue ball to make that happen. The only sort of folks that might have a chance of doing that would probably be trick shot artists. But the rest of us mortals probably do not have a chance.
 
BRussell said:
I'm convinced that it's possible to transfer a small amount of english from the cue ball to an object ball: Using right side spin will put some left side spin on the object ball. But I'm less convinced that you can put draw or follow on an object ball.

The situation I'm thinking of came up in a combination shot where it could have been advantageous to draw the combination ball back a bit after it made the second ball. The suggestion I heard was that you could put follow on the cue ball which would then put draw on the object ball so it would come back after making the next ball. The cue ball was at a slight angle, so it was at least possible to use high on the cue ball, and then it would get out of the way for the next ball to draw back after making the combination.

But I seriously doubt it's possible to put draw on an object ball like that. Speed is so important with follow and draw, and it's probably only possible to get a small amount of spin to transfer, that I'm skeptical it can work with follow/draw.

Maybe a better example that you often hear people talk about is that when you want to make both balls in a combination shot, you should put draw on the cue ball, which will transfer into follow on the combination ball, making it follow right in after the first one. This seems a bit more plausible to me, but my guess is that you have to hit the cue ball at a faster speed to keep draw on it, and that speed would cause the next ball to slide rather than follow, defeating the purpose. Probably just hitting it slowly would get the next ball to naturally "follow" by rolling. (And more important than anything is to make sure the combination ball hits the next ball squarely.)

But maybe I'm completely wrong. I'm interested in hearing thoughts about this, or seeing if anyone has done any experiments with it. I've seen some of the videos and discussion about transfer of sidepsin, but less on transfer of follow/draw. Thanks in advance.
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You can set-up a shot where you'll get some draw transferred to an object ball but it's not practical. Set-up a frozen combination with four balls. If you use top spin, the first ball with draw back (talking inches, nothing more).

Under practical application where a combination only involves two object balls, using follow will only get the first object ball to stop. Maybe there are some super-strokers out there that can get more action but that's the usual rule of thumb.
 
BRussell said:
I'm convinced that it's possible to transfer a small amount of english from the cue ball to an object ball: Using right side spin will put some left side spin on the object ball. But I'm less convinced that you can put draw or follow on an object ball.

The situation I'm thinking of came up in a combination shot where it could have been advantageous to draw the combination ball back a bit after it made the second ball. The suggestion I heard was that you could put follow on the cue ball which would then put draw on the object ball so it would come back after making the next ball. The cue ball was at a slight angle, so it was at least possible to use high on the cue ball, and then it would get out of the way for the next ball to draw back after making the combination.

But I seriously doubt it's possible to put draw on an object ball like that. Speed is so important with follow and draw, and it's probably only possible to get a small amount of spin to transfer, that I'm skeptical it can work with follow/draw.

Maybe a better example that you often hear people talk about is that when you want to make both balls in a combination shot, you should put draw on the cue ball, which will transfer into follow on the combination ball, making it follow right in after the first one. This seems a bit more plausible to me, but my guess is that you have to hit the cue ball at a faster speed to keep draw on it, and that speed would cause the next ball to slide rather than follow, defeating the purpose. Probably just hitting it slowly would get the next ball to naturally "follow" by rolling. (And more important than anything is to make sure the combination ball hits the next ball squarely.)

But maybe I'm completely wrong. I'm interested in hearing thoughts about this, or seeing if anyone has done any experiments with it. I've seen some of the videos and discussion about transfer of sidepsin, but less on transfer of follow/draw. Thanks in advance.
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Draw can help a little to produce follow on the OB. Usually it's better odds hitting the shot softer so that natural roll produces the follow.

Topspin to convert to backspin on the OB has never had any significant effect in any shot I've experimented with. Though it can create a little backspin on the OB, it is minimal and soon wears off. I think it was Byrnes who first postulated the 2-3% transfer of spin..... I think that is still pretty much right.
 
I'm not totally convinced you're putting follow on an object ball with draw on the cue ball, either...getting the first OB to follow the second OB into a pocket in a combination shot is more about the first OB still having energy after it contacts the second OB. We usually put draw on the CB, because that's usually the most practical thing to do when that shot comes up to avoid sending the CB all over the planet. In reality, we're just loading the first ball up with energy from a firmly hit CB, that usually has draw on it to keep it in control. The proof is set up a hanger and follow it in with another OB on a slow roll shot...no follow is on the first OB, and it's usually not required. When they don't both go, it's usually because the line between both balls' centers aren't lined up perfectly straight to the back of the pocket, so the energy on the first ball doesn't carry it into the pocket, or it's lost in the transfer.

A CB that has follow put on it stops sliding very soon after it leaves the tip of the cue...it has a lot of energy in it, though, because it starts rolling without slide earlier than a center ball or draw hit that slides further (which spends energy fighting the friction of the cloth). How would a free rolling CB impart follow on an object ball if it isn't overspinning when it makes contact? It can't...but it can load some serious kinetic energy onto that OB which exceeds the energy required to move the second OB, therefore, it follows along that path and into the pocket, too.
 
BRussell said:
I'm convinced that it's possible to transfer a small amount of english from the cue ball to an object ball: Using right side spin will put some left side spin on the object ball. But I'm less convinced that you can put draw or follow on an object ball.

The situation I'm thinking of came up in a combination shot where it could have been advantageous to draw the combination ball back a bit after it made the second ball. The suggestion I heard was that you could put follow on the cue ball which would then put draw on the object ball so it would come back after making the next ball. The cue ball was at a slight angle, so it was at least possible to use high on the cue ball, and then it would get out of the way for the next ball to draw back after making the combination.

But I seriously doubt it's possible to put draw on an object ball like that. Speed is so important with follow and draw, and it's probably only possible to get a small amount of spin to transfer, that I'm skeptical it can work with follow/draw.

Maybe a better example that you often hear people talk about is that when you want to make both balls in a combination shot, you should put draw on the cue ball, which will transfer into follow on the combination ball, making it follow right in after the first one. This seems a bit more plausible to me, but my guess is that you have to hit the cue ball at a faster speed to keep draw on it, and that speed would cause the next ball to slide rather than follow, defeating the purpose. Probably just hitting it slowly would get the next ball to naturally "follow" by rolling. (And more important than anything is to make sure the combination ball hits the next ball squarely.)

But maybe I'm completely wrong. I'm interested in hearing thoughts about this, or seeing if anyone has done any experiments with it. I've seen some of the videos and discussion about transfer of sidepsin, but less on transfer of follow/draw. Thanks in advance.
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This is a link to high speed video of spin transfer:

http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/is-there-a-transmission-rotation-between-the-balls-hs-video/?lang=en

a great source for this type of information is dr. daves site:

http://billiards.colostate.edu


bert
 
What about when the object ball skids? It seems to me that it's trying to draw. Just a thought.
 
It seems that all OBs begin their journey with slide (no spin) and then begin forward rolling spin. Draw on the CB might shorten the distance that the OB slides before rolling, but that would be offset by the fact that you need to hit a draw shot harder than a follow shot. I think a slow rolling follow shot would cause an OB to roll sooner than a medium speed draw shot.

As to the OP's question: No, I don't think a rolling CB can impart draw on an OB because the CB will always hit the up-down center of the OB (never below center). Mike Page of Fargo Billiards made a video of a test he did to see if you can actually "overspin" a follow shot. His conclusion was that you couldn't: the forward spin you see on a force-follow shot is only normal topspin; the "power" creates an optical illusion that the CB is spinning faster than it's rolling...but it's not (actually the illusion occurs when the CB is relatively motionless after contact with the OB, and then begins to roll forward again).

I found the Fargo Billiards video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs
 
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You're pretty much right, getting an object ball to draw is not gonna happen without a trickshot setup.

However getting follow onto an object ball is definitely a real and useful thing.
Your opponent's ball is hanging, and you want to get your object ball to follow it in...
If they're a few feet apart, you can let cloth friction cause the object ball to roll.

As you said, just don't hit so hard it slides the entire way.
But if they're just inches apart, the first ball will pretty much always stop
unless you put draw on the cue ball.
 
Take two balls and freeze them together so that the tangent line is to the pocket center. Hit the first ob so that it will travel down the tangent line to the pocket. Watch what part of the pocket it goes in, should be center pocket.

Now, set them up in the same place and put a lot of draw on the cb. The ob will go past the tangent line and may even go past the pocket.

Set them up again and use a lot of follow. You will find that you can get the ob to draw back a little of the tangent line, but not very much at all. However, knowing that, at times it will come in handy for two balls not quite "dead on" to be made.

You will see this come up in 14.1 more than in any other game.
 
Neil said:
Take two balls and freeze them together so that the tangent line is to the pocket center. Hit the first ob so that it will travel down the tangent line to the pocket. Watch what part of the pocket it goes in, should be center pocket.

Now, set them up in the same place and put a lot of draw on the cb. The ob will go past the tangent line and may even go past the pocket.

Set them up again and use a lot of follow. You will find that you can get the ob to draw back a little of the tangent line, but not very much at all. However, knowing that, at times it will come in handy for two balls not quite "dead on" to be made.

You will see this come up in 14.1 more than in any other game.
Click to expand...

This gets even more exaggerated when you freeze 3 or 4 balls and this info can be useful in predicting break results. (although honestly, I've never thought about breaks very much)
 
It IS possible to transfer vertical spin to an object ball. It seems that it is easier to make the object ball spin forward than it is to put draw on the OB.

I agree that it would be almost impossible to make an OB draw back more than an inch or two after it hits a second OB. But it is definitely possible to induce SOME reverse spin on the OB.

You can clearly see examples of both follow and draw on object balls in the first two sections of this slow motion video I shot a few years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN5_NrkjQj8

I hope this helps!

-Blake
 
SloMoHolic said:
It IS possible to transfer vertical spin to an object ball. It seems that it is easier to make the object ball spin forward than it is to put draw on the OB.



-Blake
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I would imagine table-friction comes into play a bit. It's easier to induce a follow-spin on an object ball because you're already sending the object-ball in a forward direction (you're not working against the table). To get draw, the friction is reversed/almost negated. It's clear from your videos that SOME vertical spin is definitely transferred. And yes, as everyone (including you) have stated, the only practical application is getting the object ball to follow.

FWIW, nearly everything I said is just a casual observation as a pool player. I don't have the physics background nor the technical equipment to back-up my claims.

Thanks for posting the videos. They're really informative!
 
in fact, the spin transfer is the same, no matter the rotation axis, only the tangential velocities in the impact point and coeficient of friction are involved... however, with follow/draw, the friction with the cloth is much higher than with side spin, that's why you see less spin transfered with follow/draw, because it becomes 0 much faster
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
And yes, as everyone (including you) have stated, the only practical application is getting the object ball to follow.
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Fudging with the OB is big in banking. Gotta be able to lengthen banks, etc. Imagine what kicking would be like without english. Using follow/stun or draw is also big in setting up the non-pocketed ball from a combo. You see way too many beginners hose themselves on the combo. As BRussell said, "But maybe I'm completely wrong."
 
I've seen John Brumback do a cross side bank (object ball within and inch or two of the long rail...doesn't work if the object ball is more than a balls width away from the cushion) where the object ball curves back around and obstructing ball and into the side pocket. It doesn't curve a lot, but definitely curves some. The shot is hit with extreme follow, imparting a bit of draw to the object ball as it leaves the cushion, curving it around the obstruction.

I can make this shot; can't imagine how it curves if it doesn't pick up backspin from the topspin on the cueball.
 
Williebetmore said:
I've seen John Brumback do a cross side bank (object ball within and inch or two of the long rail...doesn't work if the object ball is more than a balls width away from the cushion) where the object ball curves back around and obstructing ball and into the side pocket. It doesn't curve a lot, but definitely curves some. The shot is hit with extreme follow, imparting a bit of draw to the object ball as it leaves the cushion, curving it around the obstruction.

I can make this shot; can't imagine how it curves if it doesn't pick up backspin from the topspin on the cueball.
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I think it also has to do with the angle and (side)spin that it picks up from/off the rail. One of my favorite shots is the 4-rail "round-the-world" shot. After the 4th rail, there are times you can see the ball curve towards the pocket.
 
Another example of draw transfer would be shooting to carom in the object ball off another ball. Shooting with top will transfer a touch of draw to the first object ball to delay natural forward roll so that it takes a stun path off the second ball.
 
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