That may have to do with the fact that someone has put 20 years or so of their life into a system, recorded who knows how many FREE videos (at least 33 online I believe at the moment, but I know all the very early stuff was taken down) explaining individual aspects of that system, hell, even multiple ways of using the system, and set up a group on FB free with availability all hours of the day to assist those who question things about it, and more than likely has invested a sizeable portion of his school teacher pension on publishing a very nice book about that system. It's amazing to me he has given away what he has so far. Everything in the book is in the videos, and vise versa. It's up to the user to get it in whatever medium they choose, or not at all. The way I see it, it's not mine to give away, or teach. It's there for anyone that chooses to try it. The people who use it appreciate the work, and the free tech support.
Split the Difference vs CTE
- Thread starter lakeman77
- Start date
let me start by saying i dont use CTE
but respect that the people who use it /believe in it /and there are high level players that use and endorse it
dendweller you joined in 2021 and may not know that for 20-30 years there have been ugly interactions between those that use it and those that dont believe in it
over the years its been impossible to get any peace between the parties or respect to just let each other be
it was impossible to have a discussion about CTE without in degenerating into a flame war
the topic was taken off the main forum it was so bad and this aiming section was created
it never got better
many people got banned (some a few times)
so now if you are sincere in learning about CTE
you need to watch stan's videos/buy the book/join the facebook group /find a certified instructor
any or all of these things
because the CTE people are reluctant to post here (for good reason)
its unfortunate that it got so ugly
but thats just the way it is
PM me if you have any questions
Minor comment. The two biggest CTE proponents are banned from posting here (for good reason).
If CTE works it is not how and why Stan thinks it does. That has been demonstrated over and over by many of us yet the CTE proponents seem to be immune to reason. This is why newcomers are confused and think there is something wrong with them because they don't get it. There is nothing wrong with them.
@dendweller
dan white was among the antagonists who gave the CTE people a hard time
its a perfect example that he would reply with a dig at CTE
where my post was fairly neutral and tried to give you some background
just sayin
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dendweller
Well-known member
I'm curious but the videos I've watched didn't do much for me. I've developed software for a lot of years and one of my main beliefs is keep it simple until it's not simple.
I was just joining a conversation where someone put up a link to this other aiming method and ended by saying he thought cte was more accurate. Since the video explained the process of aiming with the other method, I thought it would be interesting to get a comparison of the cte process for the same shot. He said he didn't really know cte well enough to explain it so it's pretty much the end of the story.
Thanks for the explanation.
I like you Larry but you never take a stand on anything, except maybe cue valuation.
You see the forum as a place where people shouldn't ruffle any feathers. I see it as a resource where good information can be found. That requires calling out BS. CTE is, flat out, BS. It's been shown objectively by several of us through Stan's own videos and words. If it works for some people it does so in spite of CTE, not because of it.
I'm sorry if pointing out the flaws in a system is offensive. I've always tried to keep it about the science despite an onslaught of insults. The proof of that is the two strongest voices for CTE have been banned.
Oikawa
Well-known member
I have recently read and watched quite a lot about CTE without any pre-existing knowledge about it.
What I think it boils down to is, as stated multiple times on these forums by various people, that CTE is mathematically imperfect on it's own, such that if you don't do any adjustments (subconscious or not), it won't work well.
However, if you aim with CTE, but do allow adjustments (subconscious or not, doesn't matter for this point), it can work. But so can any other aiming system, so this doesn't really say anything special about CTE, just that any system can work well if you practice them long enough and allow the adjustments to happen at the end. If you are good enough, you can adjust from anywhere to the correct line, no matter what you did beforehand.
So, why do many good players use CTE then? I believe that there are two main reasons:
1. Familiarity/Experience. They are used to it, and it works well for them, because they've done it for so long and are familiar with it. They do the adjustments, either subconsciously or consciously, but feel that having CTE as a baseline works well for them, and they see no reason to change it.
2. Silencing the conscious mind. Now, this one is interesting. If a person believes thoroughly that CTE works with no adjustments needed, and they are not aware of any adjustments they are doing, yet do them either way, they will have an experience of an aiming system that requires no feel. This can actually be beneficial for some, since with this (objectively false) belief, your conscious mind thinks that no adjustments are needed, and therefore will never interfere with the subconscious when it comes to making the adjustments. This can lead to more consistency, since your subconscious is generally better at making small-scale adjustments. This is a good example of self-delusion sometimes leading to positive results. An interesting topic in many ways.
What I think it boils down to is, as stated multiple times on these forums by various people, that CTE is mathematically imperfect on it's own, such that if you don't do any adjustments (subconscious or not), it won't work well.
However, if you aim with CTE, but do allow adjustments (subconscious or not, doesn't matter for this point), it can work. But so can any other aiming system, so this doesn't really say anything special about CTE, just that any system can work well if you practice them long enough and allow the adjustments to happen at the end. If you are good enough, you can adjust from anywhere to the correct line, no matter what you did beforehand.
So, why do many good players use CTE then? I believe that there are two main reasons:
1. Familiarity/Experience. They are used to it, and it works well for them, because they've done it for so long and are familiar with it. They do the adjustments, either subconsciously or consciously, but feel that having CTE as a baseline works well for them, and they see no reason to change it.
2. Silencing the conscious mind. Now, this one is interesting. If a person believes thoroughly that CTE works with no adjustments needed, and they are not aware of any adjustments they are doing, yet do them either way, they will have an experience of an aiming system that requires no feel. This can actually be beneficial for some, since with this (objectively false) belief, your conscious mind thinks that no adjustments are needed, and therefore will never interfere with the subconscious when it comes to making the adjustments. This can lead to more consistency, since your subconscious is generally better at making small-scale adjustments. This is a good example of self-delusion sometimes leading to positive results. An interesting topic in many ways.
Yes, but ... If a player has learned a system that is fundamentally broken but it works by the subconscious filling in and fixing the missing/broken parts, pressure can destroy performance. Under pressure the player may consciously invoke the broken system and execute it as stated. That's a problem.
Oikawa
Well-known member
Agreed 100%.
(Was going to say more, but however I tried to put it, it just kept coming off as very offensive towards CTE. As much as I find it interesting to discuss these things, I don't want to sound too harsh or judgemental, especially when the horse has already been beaten to death many times on these forums.)
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Hmmm.... Pivot: A lateral rotation/movement of the cue stick, based on a fixed point, like the rotation or movement of an airplane propeller. With a cue stick, the fixed point could be the bridge hand or some imaginary point between the bridge hand and the grip hand.
Pivoting the cue to land it exactly on the shot line relies on aquired or subconscious knowledge/awareness, whether it's being used as a BHE method or an actual aiming technique.
That's the correct definition of "pivot", and the cue does always end up angled with its "effective pivot point" on the shot line, just as if they did it like you describe. But I think the cue is often angled for squirt compensation without actually pivoting about a point, even though that's where it necessarily ends up - I think that's commonly/confusingly called "parallel" english.
Dr. Dave has even invented an actual step-by-step method for applying the so-called "parallel" offset:
check out his System for Aiming with Sidespin (SAWS) - https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/
pj
chgo
What a joke,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There are a lot of variations of CTE on youtube so it's easy to get confusing information on it. The info Larry gave you was good.
There is no of aiming accurately and consistency that does not require understand, patience, and work. Just because a few people don't understand it or won't work on it doesn't mean it don't work.
Where has it been a problem?
It can be a problem whenever the system is physically wrong. Like it has the geometry wrong. The uncorrected ghost ball system is one. Joe Davis pointed out that it was broken 70 years ago.
Oikawa
Well-known member
Out of curiosity, what is the uncorrected ghost ball system he was referring to? Aiming at the GB without accounting for throw or other effects? Aiming at the contact point instead of GB center? Something else?
The simple ghost ball system puts the line of centers going to the center of the pocket.