Sportmanship at US Open

Suppose a piece of the broken shaft had caught Alex, the TD, a cameraman, or even Larry in the eye? Verbal issues are one thing, but a player’s actions should not be a physical threat to others.
 
jay helfert said:
Thanks Steve, I also look to see if Earl (or anyone else) is affecting the other players around him while he's at the table. Usually I can tell just by watching how the nearby players are reacting to him. Not one player came to me and complained about Earl this time around. He does appear to know what his boundaries are. :rolleyes:
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Players like Earl, are good for the game (with caveats)...He is immensly talented, but he is known to be very confrontational at times...As has been said often, he is much like John MacEnroe in tennis.:rolleyes:...
FoAr instance, he has disrupted several Mosconi Cup teams, to the point where his teammates,
were very embarrassed for him, them, and our country...Thereby affecting THEIR play.

You can make medical excuses for his uncontrollable tirades, but that does not excuse him, in my eyes, for his actions...When he is losing, I have seen him totally disrespect, both his opponent, and the fan's who paid to see him play...Not to mention the unfair disruption of his opponents focus, on the game.

TD's like Jay, or Ken, will let him know that they will not tolerate his antics...Why is it he behaves (somewhat) at their tournaments, and not at others...He is definately an enigma, but I guess some people enjoy watching a good trainwreck...Personally, I am glad he did not make the Mosconi team this year. He is definately, the poster child (along with MacEnroe)... for the "Ugly American"...:frown:
 
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Cameron Smith said:
I completely agree with you, I just don't think players throwing tantrums are hurting the game much since I'd be surprised to find a pursuit that didn't have people displaying poor sportsmanship....

I've always maintained that the way to raise pool to any level of popularity as spectator sport is to sell the players first and foremost. If you get people to care about Corey Deuel the individual, they'll watch him do anything...

I don't know how to attract the wealthy, but for my part as a newly graduated teacher I'm determined to start a school pool league once I've obtained a full time position. The only caveat is that without a table on site, I'd need to be in close proximity to a room of high reptute. I know of a few in my area, but who knows where I'll get a job. But there are other issues too, for example keeping certain regulars (the day time drinkers not the necessarily the players) away from my students, especially the girls. But I have polled the classes I taught and there are always a large portion who are excited at the concept.

Pool has every chance getting into the limelight. But at this point I think we need to hire a market research company and a marketing firm to help us. I doubt we'll get there if things continue as they are. I think a first step is that pool needs to get back on to tv. Easier said than done but it's what needs to happen.
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There is much wisdom here but it's the last paragraph of you post that I feel misses the mark.

When a business has done everything imaginable to strengthen its product to the max, that's when it's time to bring in the marketing guys, who have and always will have my respect.

The most basic market reasearch we need is already in our hands. I myself have first hand knowledge of our sport's TV demographics, and even if pool generated a better rating on its ESPN telecasts, it wouldn't be enough unless it attracted the consumer demographics that tune it out.

Pool needs repackaging and remarketing to have any chance to reel in the consumer groups that matter.

His mistakes aside, it can be argued that Kevin Trudeau and the IPT did a decent job at repackaging pool by a) playing eight ball,the only game that most mainstream amateurs play and know, b) having a grand opening challenge match in Vegas with some big-name celebrities in attendance and the players dressed elegantly, c) inclusion of all the sport's hall of famers in its kickoff event, d) large scale glitzy events, and e) player amenities that helped them feel good and conduct themselves well. Unfortunately, the marketing piece was mismanaged by the IPT, which is one of the reasons the product seemed to fail to capture the attention of those who like and/or play pool. Countless members of this forum, quite correctly, made the observation that the IPT's improved pro pool product was poorly marketed. The IPT made pool cool and refined in many ways but mismanaged the marketing piece.

Men's pro pool is now back to being the product it was before Trudeau. It wasn't selling then and it isn't selling now. It needs repackaging and remarketing, but repackaging must come first.

Pool is non-contact sport played chiefly by individuals, not teams, which is why we on the forum like to compare it to both golf and tennis. We've seen McEnroe's tantrums and we've seen and we've seen Tiger Woods slam a club against the grass after a bad shot, but we still view both pro tennis players and pro golfers as refined and worthy of our attention, and we buy the products they endorse enthusiastically. That's because incidents like those are at odds with our perceptions of those professionals, most of whom present themselves so well that we see them as role models.

Pool isn't like these sports because it has a very poor reputation among parents and potential corporate sponsors. The wealthy point their children and friends in the direction of golf and tennis, but not in the direciton of pool. Pool needs to take the conduct of its competitors more seriously than golf and tennis if it hopes to evolve past its reputation.

As the IPT showed, repackaging without proper marketing doesn't work. Today's pro pool product shows that the product itself does not capture the interest of most key consumers.

I say fix the men's pro pool product first, and then focus on marketing it.

PS Good luck with your youth programs. I admire you for what you're trying to accomplish.
 
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How did he break it?

Cuefan said:
Suppose a piece of the broken shaft had caught Alex, the TD, a cameraman, or even Larry in the eye? Verbal issues are one thing, but a player’s actions should not be a physical threat to others.
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I was watching when he walked back and he seemed to drag or stick his cue in the carpet. But I don't see how he snapped it. There did not seem to be any force at all. If he had swing it into the table I could see it but this seemed like a freak incident.

BTW, did anyone else swallow their cigar when he played that 5 rail backward shape shot on the 8? Wow!
 
Why was the title of this post changed??

I was playing Larry at Derby last year in the Banks Division and he had his mom and two other ladies sitting there watching the whole time. As we played, he would swear and throw tantrums on every ball he would miss AND on every ball I made. He acted a complete ass. I never said a word, but continued to play. I beat him and he didn't shake my hand or anything, but grabbed his stuff and stormed out. His mom came over to me and apologized to me for his behavior.... Nice gesture on her part...

Haha... How bad is it when you are in your mid 30's and your mom has to apologize for you?
 
sjm said:
Sometimes, I wonder whether the "A" in AZB stands for apologist, for every time a pro pool player commits an indisretion in conduct, the outpouring in defense of that player is boundless.

Whether it's Earl insulting a fan, Charlie Bryant competing in overalls at Derby City, Alex showing up drunk and boisterous to play in the DCC Straight Pool Final, or Nevel breaking his stick into pieces on a streamed match, the fact is that every time one of these incidents occurs, I always hope that no potential corporate sponsor is watching.

AZ apologists are always abundant when it comes to defending the very actions that will serve to scare away any possible corporate sponsor that might be in attendance. At other times, the very same posters wonder out loud why pool garners such minimal corporate attention and sponsorship.

Let's not confuse shows of emotion, which potential sponsors like, for blatantly inappropriate behavior, which reinforces pool's unfortunate reputation as being fit primarily for the unrefined. There are reasons why the demographic groups that interest major corporate sponsors are turned off by pool, and, although there is an abundance of apologists for professionals that make our sport look bad, there shouldn't be.

Golfers in the 1950's made next to nothing, and the Demaret's and the Snead's had to hustle on the side to make ends meet. It wasn't until Arnold Palmer convinced his fellow pros that they needed to clean up their acts that corporate America began to invest heavily in golf.

Who will be pool's Arnold Palmer? One thing's for certain. It won't be Larry Nevel.
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Im not disagreeing with you that the pro players are not in need of an image rehabilitation but this comment from you is inaccurate imo.

It wasn't necessarily Palmer who was responsible for the rise of golf but instead it was the lawyer Mark McCormack who started the first sports management firm IMG in the 1950s. Palmer was IMGs first client and later McCormack was quoted as saying that Palmer made the ideal first client bc he possessed five specific traits including that Palmer was noted for taking risks and wearing his emotions on his sleeve while playing golf. As another poster points out, human drama and emotion is what sells tickets, not necessarily the robotic runout machines like Souquet (again not taking anything away from Ralf, hes a incredible champion).

Incidentally, in the 1990s, IMG approached the mens pool pro tour and tried to strike a deal with them. McCormack was soured to the deal by the pool players (or rather the head guy ...the guy who ended up stiffing a whole bunch of people in the end and walked away with settlement monies from the Camel tour I think but I forget his name). This might have been the pivotal point in history of USA professional pool that slipped by that year. IMG is a marketing machine and if anyone could have made a real go with pool, it was them.
 
uwate said:
Incidentally, in the 1990s, IMG approached the mens pool pro tour and tried to strike a deal with them. McCormack was soured to the deal by the pool players (or rather the head guy ...the guy who ended up stiffing a whole bunch of people in the end and walked away with settlement monies from the Camel tour I think but I forget his name). This might have been the pivotal point in history of USA professional pool that slipped by that year. IMG is a marketing machine and if anyone could have made a real go with pool, it was them.
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Don "The Don" Mackey.

Thanks for the backstory, Dave. I didn't know that about IMG.


Eric
 
That is enlightening. Don MacKey was a real sweetheart!

I remember many discusions with players and others - and they all said Don only does what we authorize him to.

Riiightttt!

Mark Griffin
 
Eric. said:
All I can say is that it sure didnt look that way in person. He pointed the tip of the stick down into the rug, the tip caught, then he pushed firmly til it bowed, then snapped.

FWIW, my seat was 5 feet away from him and I was watching him as he was walking back to his seat, along side the table. I had a clear view.


Eric
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The game before the shaft breaking, he missed a different shot and stood right in front of me (his back was to you Eric) and he grabbed the cue near the ferrule and bent it back rather violently. The tip was probably 30 degrees off straight when he let it go back up. I think he was pretty hot at that particular shaft and meant to show it a lesson.

You can't let the stick think it has a guaranteed job or it will turn on you! :D

Brian in VA
 
Back in 2008, there was a thread about Archer vs Nevel. Here was my post from then (over 3 years ago!). Some thiings never change!

Mark Griffin



archer vs nevel - 06-19-2008, 02:09 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree this could be a great match. But I think an important aspect of this challenge is the ground rules.

I know emotions can get cranked up a little high. But at the last US Open, I watched Larry Nevel display some of the worst behavior I have seen in a professionsal match. Against a gentleman like Allen Hopkins, he was acting like a spoiled 12 year old.

If Larry is again allowed to throw tantrums, it intimadates the other player and gives a distinctive advantage to the one throwing the tantrums.

If solid refs and rules are in place, I like Archer. If not, I like Nevel.

I am only saying this so someone in Nevel's camp can give him a heads up that his actions do not go unnoticed. There is no place for whining and bad behavior in professional pool. I realize playrs get bad rolls and bad moods - but act like a professional if you want to be treated like a professional.

It gives the industry a bad name and the player can get a bed reputation. And Nevel has more talent and ability than almost anyone out there. He has less to throw tantrums about than the average player.

Mark Griffin
 
Mark Griffin said:
That is enlightening. Don MacKey was a real sweetheart!

I remember many discusions with players and others - and they all said Don only does what we authorize him to.

Riiightttt!

Mark Griffin
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I was very close to Don`s family- his mother, his sons and his wife. I liked all of them. I did have some disagreements with Don. However , I believe that in the last 100 years, the only time professional pool had it`s Golden Age was when it was under the leadership of Don Macky. Period.:cool:
 
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sjm said:
There is much wisdom here but it's the last paragraph of you post that I feel misses the mark.

When a business has done everything imaginable to strengthen its product to the max, that's when it's time to bring in the marketing guys, who have and always will have my respect.

The most basic market reasearch we need is already in our hands. I myself have first hand knowledge of our sport's TV demographics, and even if pool generated a better rating on its ESPN telecasts, it wouldn't be enough unless it attracted the consumer demographics that tune it out.

Pool needs repackaging and remarketing to have any chance to reel in the consumer groups that matter.

His mistakes aside, it can be argued that Kevin Trudeau and the IPT did a decent job at repackaging pool by a) playing eight ball,the only game that most mainstream amateurs play and know, b) having a grand opening challenge match in Vegas with some big-name celebrities in attendance and the players dressed elegantly, c) inclusion of all the sport's hall of famers in its kickoff event, d) large scale glitzy events, and e) player amenities that helped them feel good and conduct themselves well. Unfortunately, the marketing piece was mismanaged by the IPT, which is one of the reasons the product seemed to fail to capture the attention of those who like and/or play pool. Countless members of this forum, quite correctly, made the observation that the IPT's improved pro pool product was poorly marketed. The IPT made pool cool and refined in many ways but mismanaged the marketing piece.

Men's pro pool is now back to being the product it was before Trudeau. It wasn't selling then and it isn't selling now. It needs repackaging and remarketing, but repackaging must come first.

Pool is non-contact sport played chiefly by individuals, not teams, which is why we on the forum like to compare it to both golf and tennis. We've seen McEnroe's tantrums and we've seen and we've seen Tiger Woods slam a club against the grass after a bad shot, but we still view both pro tennis players and pro golfers as refined and worthy of our attention, and we buy the products they endorse enthusiastically. That's because incidents like those are at odds with our perceptions of those professionals, most of whom present themselves so well that we see them as role models.

Pool isn't like these sports because it has a very poor reputation among parents and potential corporate sponsors. The wealthy point their children and friends in the direction of golf and tennis, but not in the direciton of pool. Pool needs to take the conduct of its competitors more seriously than golf and tennis if it hopes to evolve past its reputation.

As the IPT showed, repackaging without proper marketing doesn't work. Today's pro pool product shows that the product itself does not capture the interest of most key consumers.

I say fix the men's pro pool product first, and then focus on marketing it.

PS Good luck with your youth programs. I admire you for what you're trying to accomplish.
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Excellent points. It is interesting that you mention repackaging pool because I was pondering that last night. The conclusion I came to was simply that we can't market pool if we don't really have a product to sell. Without a viable national tour people can fall in love with Shane Van Boening all they want, but it would be more effort than most people are willing to expend to follow his tournament exploits. And I agree, for all of the IPT's faults I loved how it packaged pool as a product. It actually made me interested in 8 ball (something which hasn't happened since).

I thought long and hard about your thoughts regarding the image of our professional players. I can certainly see your point of view and you are right that Tennis players and Golfers already have an established professional image that wont be tarnished by a few players throwing tantrums. And now that I think about it, before Alex Higgins came along players like Joe Davis had already established the image of the dapper and distinguished professional snooker player in the public eye. In fact, Joe Davis had such control over the professional snooker scene (especially after he retired) that there were a number of great players who were never allowed to play professional tournaments because they were deemed unfit for the title. As such there are a handful of gamblers who many believe would have won numerous World Titles in the 60's or 70's (can't remember the exact time) if only they were allowed to compete.

I still don't mind seeing a player show a little emotion though. You are probably right, at this stage full on meltdowns likely do not help our cause much. But at the same time I don't want to see two stone faced players at the table every match. But that is part of repackaging pool and creating a new product I guess, we have to establish limitations to how a player can express his ummm emotion. That said I wish I could be one of those stone faced players who don't let things get to them.
 
I havent read this thread do to the topic and there really isnt any debate. If you are a tournament director you should either A: Make it a one game penalty for coinceding any shot whether its a hanging 9 or 10 ball. Or B: if you coincede any shot you forfeit your match!!!

I guess argueably losing a match due to sweeping or conceding shots is a bit harsh but rules are rules. Plus I remember reading a chapter in Playing Off the Rail (know Im going down for this) when Tony was playing Leborn... Tony was smashing the rack and playing runout pool and once when Tony broke... The rack was another road map runout!! Leborn steps up to the table and sweeps the remaining 7 balls knowing Tony was in dead punch. Well after that Tony lost his gear and lost his match to Leborn. So in reality Lebrons sweeping of the balls took Tony out of his rhythm and caused him to lose which in a sense is cheating!! Is it not?? I guess sweeping balls liek that is cheating in any sense whether throwing an ON opponent out of his element or being used as a balant shark.

This story with Tony and Lebron was at the Arkon Open in 92 or 93 and the rule was that you were not allowed to coinced any shot!!! but Tony didnt call him on it. Case in point.... You give or sweep balls out of spite you deserve to lose your match for unsportmans like conduct.

End of thread...............
 
RunoutJJ said:
I..... You give or sweep balls out of spite you deserve to lose your match for unsportmans like conduct.

End of thread...............
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I thought that by sweeping the balls the player is acknowledging the superior play/skill of his opponent. Such act of acknowlegement of superiority of the opponent should be considered as 'good sportsman like' conduct and not the otherway around. I guess I am wrong, dang..... Just kidding folks.:grin::o:grin:
 
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Enough with the bullshit talk of representing this or representing that. When all is said & done, this like any other event is a competition & everyone wants to win. Some people handle it better but regardless, it is all the same when push comes to shove.

If you think people are going to not turn into pool or support it because someone shows raw emotion & a temper, I will use one to describe you, idiot.
 
PoolJunkie216 said:
Enough with the bullshit talk of representing this or representing that. When all is said & done, this like any other event is a competition & everyone wants to win. Some people handle it better but regardless, it is all the same when push comes to shove.

If you think people are going to not turn into pool or support it because someone shows raw emotion & a temper, I will use one to describe you, idiot.
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Thanks for coming out.
 
vagabond said:
I was very close to Don`s family- his mother, his sons and his wife. I liked all of them. I did have some disagreements with Don. However , I believe that in the last 100 years, the only time professional pool had it`s Golden Age was when it was under the leadership of Don Macky. Period.:cool:
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Vagabond,
Unlike you, I have never had any experience with Don Macky or his family.

Your post insinuates that professional pool benefited from Don Macky's leadership. From what I have read, you may be the only person in the world to think so.
 
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