Sportsbars and Pool....a Conundrum of Opposites

[macguy]

Sorry Charlie - in my years of playing I have observed 90% of the players that
once supported pool rooms migrate to bars and pubs.

I think there is a reason why, don't you?

Dale

Not really by choice, something else is at play there. Maybe a lack of pool rooms. All things being equal, a pool player would rather be in a pool room. That is not to say they don't go to both, but they usually don't prefer a bar over a pool room.

 

[bdorman]

...it is a sports bar and they had six nice bar tables. A few months later I stopped in and they were gone. They need more seating and the pool tables had to go....

IMHO that means it was a successful business. It attracted enough high-paying customers that it was able to get rid of the low-paying customers. If I owned a bar and had to put pool tables in it, I'd consider it a major failure: I can fit 12 high-paying customers in the same space it takes to have a barbox with two low-paying customers.

Retail is all about sales-per-squarefoot...and pool just doesn't cut it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

IMHO that means it was a successful business. It attracted enough high-paying customers that it was able to get rid of the low-paying customers. If I owned a bar and had to put pool tables in it, I'd consider it a major failure: I can fit 12 high-paying customers in the same space it takes to have a barbox with two low-paying customers.

Retail is all about sales-per-squarefoot...and pool just doesn't cut it.

I have a different perspective: when it's done right a synergy is created between the two businesses - the bar generates new pool business and vice verse. It's also good for wooing repeat customers who like not having to go to two places for their entertainment. The key is not letting the two businesses interfere with each other.

pj
chgo

 

[macguy]

IMHO that means it was a successful business. It attracted enough high-paying customers that it was able to get rid of the low-paying customers. If I owned a bar and had to put pool tables in it, I'd consider it a major failure: I can fit 12 high-paying customers in the same space it takes to have a barbox with two low-paying customers.

Retail is all about sales-per-squarefoot...and pool just doesn't cut it.

The place has expanded twice. When ever there are play off's this is the place the local TV stations come to to watch the fans go nuts. In fact they have to set up TV's outside to accommodate the crowds. It is funny how a place can catch on like that.

 

[336Robin]

I agree

I have a different perspective: when it's done right a synergy is created between the two businesses - the bar generates new pool business and vice verse. It's also good for wooing repeat customers who like not having to go to two places for their entertainment. The key is not letting the two businesses interfere with each other.

pj
chgo

I have to agree but many people dont see 3 dimensionally and see them as interellated like the guy that owns the room I go to. He can be a nice guy, but if you mention recruiting a pool playing base, even one that he doesnt have to mess with he shuts down like you were asking his daughter out in front of him.

Sadly its going to take a generation of thought disappearing and the reemergence of new thinking into a digital age of customer gathering to make things work.

The Meetup.com groups are awesome you can search by zip code for new and exciting things to do and there are so many things.

It exposes pool to a new demographic that doesnt play and the $400 a year is a very small price to pay, the possibilities are endless. All of those groups are looking for a meeting place, why not the Sportsbar?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have to agree but many people dont see 3 dimensionally and see them as interellated like the guy that owns the room I go to. He can be a nice guy, but if you mention recruiting a pool playing base, even one that he doesnt have to mess with he shuts down like you were asking his daughter out in front of him.

Sadly its going to take a generation of thought disappearing and the reemergence of new thinking into a digital age of customer gathering to make things work.

The Meetup.com groups are awesome you can search by zip code for new and exciting things to do and there are so many things.

It exposes pool to a new demographic that doesnt play and the $400 a year is a very small price to pay, the possibilities are endless. All of those groups are looking for a meeting place, why not the Sportsbar?

One built-in economic difficulty is the price of square footage. A pool table and its surrounding area occupies a lot of space and can't support high per-SF rents, but sports bars are typically in high-rent entertainment areas. Combining the two means finding a location that works well enough for both - not that easy to do.

pj
chgo

 

[macguy]

One built-in economic difficulty is the price of square footage. A pool table and its surrounding area occupies a lot of space and can't support high per-SF rents, but sports bars are typically in high-rent entertainment areas. Combining the two means finding a location that works well enough for both - not that easy to do.

pj
chgo

The real consideration is, what business do you want to be in? I may prefer a pool room with a license to serve beer for my adult customers. Most adults prefer a cold beer to a Coke. That is not to say they have any interest in getting drunk.

Most restaurants serve beer and wine. When was the last time you went to a nice French restaurant and watched people getting drunk as they ate dinner?
A pool room is the same. It is a pool room that serves beer, not a bar.

A sports bar is not a pool room even though it may have pool tables. It is a completely different business. For me, I would rather make less money in a business I want to be in.

Nor would I have any interest in owning an auto parts store or shoe store. I am a pool player and that is the business I want to be in. Hopefully I can make a living, but I would not change my whole business plan into something I don't want just to maybe make a few more dollars.

 

[jay helfert]

The real consideration is, what business do you want to be in? I may prefer a pool room with a license to serve beer for my adult customers. Most adults prefer a cold beer to a Coke. That is not to say they have any interest in getting drunk.

Most restaurants serve beer and wine. When was the last time you went to a nice French restaurant and watched people getting drunk as they ate dinner?
A pool room is the same. It is a pool room that serves beer, not a bar.

A sports bar is not a pool room even though it may have pool tables. It is a completely different business. For me, I would rather make less money in a business I want to be in.

Nor would I have any interest in owning an auto parts store or shoe store. I am a pool player and that is the business I want to be in. Hopefully I can make a living, but I would not change my whole business plan into something I don't want just to maybe make a few more dollars.

That's pretty much how I feel. Adults like a beer or glass of wine once in a while, especially when they're out having fun. I've owned or been a partner in four poolrooms and two of them sold alcoholic beverages (one was beer and wine and one was full liquor). In my last place we sold only beer and wine, and did a great business and rarely did I have to shut someone off for getting too drunk. The key is to allow enough space around each table so the separate groups of people don't have to interact more than necessary. Contrary to popular opinion most people respect the space of others.

When I go into a room with all the tables jammed as close together as possible to get the maximum number of them in one place, I think the owner doesn't have a clue what is good for business. Customer comfort is EVERYTHING to owning a successful business. Keep your customers happy and they will come back, again and again. Pretty simple formula imo. A couple fewer tables with more happy customers playing a lot longer and spending more money. Does that make sense?

That said, the sport of pool is not going anywhere so don't despair. It's had it's ups and downs for the last century and it still endures. Why? Because there is no other game like it! You can play indoors, so weather is not a factor. You don't need to buy expensive equipment and it's relatively inexpensive to play, and best of all IT'S FUN! Playing pool is a very social game that is easily shared by a group of people. That's one reason why you see pool tables in almost every expensive home owned by wealthy people. And some maybe not so wealthy, like me! :thumbup:

 

[SJDinPHX]

That's pretty much how I feel. Adults like a beer or glass of wine once in a while, especially when they're out having fun. I've owned or been a partner in four poolrooms and two of them sold alcoholic beverages (one was beer and wine and one was full liquor). In my last place we sold only beer and wine, and did a great business and rarely did I have to shut someone off for getting too drunk. The key is to allow enough space around each table so the separate groups of people don't have to interact more than necessary. Contrary to popular opinion most people respect the space of others.

When I go into a room with all the tables jammed as close together as possible to get the maximum number of them in one place, I think the owner doesn't have a clue what is good for business. Customer comfort is EVERYTHING to owning a successful business. Keep your customers happy and they will come back, again and again. Pretty simple formula imo. A couple fewer tables with more happy customers playing a lot longer and spending more money. Does that make sense?

That said, the sport of pool is not going anywhere so don't despair. It's had it's ups and downs for the last century and it still endures. Why? Because there is no other game like it! You can play indoors, so weather is not a factor. You don't need to buy expensive equipment and it's relatively inexpensive to play, and best of all IT'S FUN! Playing pool is a very social game that is easily shared by a group of people. That's one reason why you see pool tables in almost every expensive home owned by wealthy people. And some maybe not so wealthy, like me! :thumbup:

Well said, and exactly right, Mr. 'Newbie' !...Amazing how much you've learned, in only a few posts !..Stick with me kid, you'll be wearing "horseshoes, as big as diamonds"!..(did I get that right ?)

 

[mrmagoo42]

Nice ideas floating around in this thread.

My experience with pool rooms is mixed. Enjoy the bar scene as well as the pool room. But I met a wonderful woman at a local pool room that changed the way I see pool establishments. She was newly divorced and looking for a way to keep her teenage boys active. She seen pool as a challenging activity that kept her in touch with them. She was right.

With her boys grown up and out on there own she wanted to share that experience with other children she had met during that time. She has ran a jr league at local establishments ever since but it is a tough time trying to find a place suitable for ages 8-20.

Pool has much appeal but much of it seems to be owned by the drinking sector of society in my area. Would like to change that.

Whats wrong with this picture

 

[macguy]

My experience with pool rooms is mixed. Enjoy the bar scene as well as the pool room. But I met a wonderful woman at a local pool room that changed the way I see pool establishments. She was newly divorced and looking for a way to keep her teenage boys active. She seen pool as a challenging activity that kept her in touch with them. She was right.

With her boys grown up and out on there own she wanted to share that experience with other children she had met during that time. She has ran a jr league at local establishments ever since but it is a tough time trying to find a place suitable for ages 8-20.

Pool has much appeal but much of it seems to be owned by the drinking sector of society in my area. Would like to change that.

Whats wrong with this pictureView attachment 382088

With the decline of bowling alley pool rooms there may not be that many family places for a family to go. Years ago most every bowling alley had a pool room. Not Mickey Mouse places.

20 and 30 tables in beautiful rooms usually separate from the bowling alley. I would say most guys my age first played in one of these bowling alleys. Unfortunately most are gone now as are many of the stand alone family pool rooms that could be found in almost every town.

I am sorry but that is not going to change, it can't economically. The family pool room is gone. I don't know about every state but in many states it is legal for minors to come in and play pool even though they may sell beer.

If it is a well run place you can bring kids there to play, but you still have to be aware, this is primarily an adult atmosphere and use your own discretion.
Another great thing about pool is, you can play on the same championship equipment right in your own house as you will find at a world tournament. If you played tennis bowled or play golf you can't say that.

 

[vikingpitbull]

Unfortunately, what you are looking at is a snapshot in time that does not exist anymore. I owned one of those places and yes it was great. But over time the of cost to operate begins to overwhelm you.

If I had not been able to add a beverage license the place would have had to close. The problem with a pool room is, there is a maximum amount that people can pay to play pool.

You only have so many tables and so many prime hours in a day/week/month/year when you make your money. You can do the numbers on paper and if you are honest with yourself see how hard it is to survive in the pool room business today.

Without a bar or some other source of income to augment the pool, you can't survive. Here is an interesting fact. I had the original paper work on a room I owned that had opened in 1960.

Lock stock and barrel it cost them $21,000.00 to open the place. That was 12 Gold Crown tables set up by Brunswick, tables, chairs, carpet, air conditioning and so on.

The rent was $160.00 a month. Electric around 2.2 cents per Kilowatthour. Ins $85.00 a year. City and county license $12.00 & $25,00.

The rate to play pool for two players was around $2.40 an hour. Many places charged per player so at $1.20 per hour per player, four players were $4.80 an hour.

Compare that to todays rates. There are a lot of places today that charge $5.00 to play all day. I used to go to a place in the 1970's that also charged $4.00 to play all day, over 40 years ago.

The value of playing pool has not gone up, in fact it has gone down. That guy who was paying $1.20 an hour in 1975, if he had an average job was making $2.50 an hour.

It cost many more times today to operate a pool room, while the value of your product has gone down. Some may differ with my numbers but the point is the same, the pool room has been passed by economically.

They just cost too much to operate today for the income they can provide. At best a pool room without a bar may provide the owner a modest a paycheck. In other words it is just a job.

IMO the manufactures have to get behind people. Many aspects of life have changed, but you have to figure out ways to move along with the times or it will no longer be a part of life.

I'm in my late 40s, and I can still remember a time when people had store fronts in their homes, and the Mom & Pop shops. Big box stores have ended all that.

Drive in movies, drive in restaurants, skating rinks, Bowling have all died.

If people want pool outside of their homes they need to figure out how to make it work, and IMO it has to do with the table makers themselves to lead the way.

 

[mrmagoo42]

Yes times have changed Macguy.

It is the closest thing to a family environment we could find. This room was about 8 lanes of a bowling alley. The owners thought it would bring in new customers. Something you can't see in that pic is the fraternity that came in before our Award meeting was over. They moved all the tables for a party. While waiting for us to leave they used the tables for coasters, furniture & one of them took a nap. Also in the next meeting room they were preparing for the monthly drag queen beauty pageant.

These are just sad situations we find ourselves in trying to get young people involved with the game. We teach them respect for the game, equipment and each other. It's getting tough do that these days.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

You're kidding? A Drag Queen contest? Hell, I like racing just as much as the next guy, but in a pool...What? You weren't talking about drag racing? My bad. Carry on. :smile:

 

[mrmagoo42]

Sorry Steamer

Didn't mean to trip your radar, lol

 

[onepocketron]

My current room reflect most others I have frequented over the years, and quite frankly, is what I prefer. They primarily cater to pool, but do have a bar and some TV's in a separate room. The TV's are for sports, and of course the bar, is for the guys/gals that want to primarily drink. The pool room portion of the place is for shooting pool, though of course many of the pool players will have a few drinks.

I've been to some places in my travels that they had karaoke, TV's all over the place, and music so loud it was like being on an airport runway. With all of that crap mixed together in one spot, I couldn't even think, much less try and play a game of pool. I am fortunate to have a room that primarily caters to pool players, but do have something for others in a separate area.

 

[pdcue]

Not really by choice, something else is at play there. Maybe a lack of pool rooms. All things being equal, a pool player would rather be in a pool room. That is not to say they don't go to both, but they usually don't prefer a bar over a pool room.

Semantics - you are talking about 1% of pool players - the hard core - highly
skilled players. My statement referred to the type of player who once was the
backbone of all those neighborhood rooms that used to exist.

And still - many top players won't play unless they can also drink.

Dale(who is a hard core slightly skilled player)

 

[philly]

After reading these posts I can't believe how lucky I am. I have four great poolrooms within an hour of me. All with 9 foot gold crowns and/or Diamonds. Three of the rooms have food and none of them serve booze of any kind but all are BYOB. All have great owners that keep their equipment in tip top shape. Two are very serious action rooms. My home room, Classic Billiards, is very close to the SBE. The action at night the week of the SBE was incredible with local pros and touring pros coming in and out and finding games. The room usually closes at 2am. Last saturday night it never closed. Very serious one pocket action going on.

 

[macguy]

Semantics - you are talking about 1% of pool players - the hard core - highly
skilled players. My statement referred to the type of player who once was the
backbone of all those neighborhood rooms that used to exist.

And still - many top players won't play unless they can also drink.

Dale(who is a hard core slightly skilled player)

No I'm not. I am talking about people who used to go to pool rooms who you say given a choice now 90% prefer going to a bar to play now. There is no way given a choice even with the most casual player would this be true.

There are almost no pool rooms is one reason, combined with the fact that so many play on bar leagues and want to play on the equipment they play on in league. Those are some of the other circumstances I was referring to.

A lot of those neighborhood rooms that closed you refers to closed for a lot of reasons. Maybe the least of which was lack of business. Many lost leases as property values went up or buildings got sold.

Many just got priced out of the business as costs to operate went up and up and there is no way generate additional income to cover it. Business may have been steady, maybe even pretty good but is was just not enough anymore to be a viable business.

There is more going on then as you believe, the bars won the battle for customers. It is more completed then that.

 

[pdcue]

No I'm not. I am talking about people who used to go to pool rooms who you say given a choice now 90% prefer going to a bar to play now. There is no way given a choice even with the most casual player would this be true.

There are almost no pool rooms is one reason, combined with the fact that so many play on bar leagues and want to play on the equipment they play on in league. Those are some of the other circumstances I was referring to.

A lot of those neighborhood rooms that closed you refers to closed for a lot of reasons. Maybe the least of which was lack of business. Many lost leases as property values went up or buildings got sold.

Many just got priced out of the business as costs to operate went up and up and there is no way generate additional income to cover it. Business may have been steady, maybe even pretty good but is was just not enough anymore to be a viable business.

There is more going on then as you believe, the bars won the battle for customers. It is more completed then that.

You are only 99% wrong.

Loss of business is the overwhelming reason most poolrooms closed.

Bar/Pub/League Barbox play isn't the only reason for loss of players - just the ones
that are still actively playing pool.

Dale(who hardly ever plays in a Pub)